Anyone brewing Brut IPA?

[Brooothru]

From just a final gravity perspective, I don’t think there is any benefit in using enzymes in the mash if using gluco in the primary. However, I believe it is possible that using enzymes in the mash to break down some/most of the unfermentables before fermentation may have other effects on fermentation duration, yeast ester characteristics, hop character, and possibly other things. If I liked the style enough to brew it often, I would definitely give the mash + primary enzymes approach a chance (despite reaching FG below 1.000 with primary only in the past) to see which produced a better result.

I'll admit to primarily having, at best, only passing interest in this style. I bought a 6 pack to see what the buzz was all about and got hooked on the process more than the product. Although I truly like to drink beer, I really enjoy brewing beer. So I did my research and chased down all the fancy ingredients to brew a batch, even though I hadn't fallen in "love with first sip" with the commercial Dry PA.

With the amylase in the mash and OYL-501 Gulo yeast paired with gluco in primary, the S.G. had dropped 45 points in four days to 1.010. I transferred it under pressure to a purged keg with a speise I'd reserved under refrigeration from the original boil with a re-pitch of Gulo left over from the starter yeast. It's still krausening, and now I'm wondering if talcum powder might be wetter than my finished beer.

We'll see how this batch turns out, but what I learn from the process will hopefully carry over into improving my go-to brews.

Brooo Brother

 

[doug293cz]

Just curious, but what's the advantage of using the enzymes twice?

From what I've read in this thread it sounds like everyone was getting full attenuation just from adding glucoamylase to the primary. So it doesn't seem like you gain anything by adding anything to your mash

Unless you have a lot of zero, or low, diastatic power items in your grain bill, there should be plenty of amylase in the malt to get you down to limit dextrins. Almost all cases of low conversion efficiency are due to incomplete gelatinization (mash too short, grits too large, grain with higher than typical gelatinization temps), and glucoamylase will not do anything to help gelantinization. Starch cannot be hydrolyzed (acted on by saccharification enzymes) if it is not first gelatinized.

Brew on

 

[Chris-Naz]

Found an enzyme information page on a Swedish university website - looks like some decent temperature stability data for a number of food industry enzymes including amyloglucosidase (pg 2): https://bioenv.gu.se/digitalAssets/1608/1608318_enzyme-information.pdf

 

[doug293cz]

Found an enzyme information page on a Swedish university website - looks like some decent temperature stability data for a number of food industry enzymes including amyloglucosidase (pg 2): https://bioenv.gu.se/digitalAssets/1608/1608318_enzyme-information.pdf
View attachment 622073

Nice reference.

I'm not sure I believe the curve for 70°C. The cure should asymptotically approach 0, not 60%. That's just not how thermal decay works.

Brew on

 

[Chris-Naz]

Nice reference.

I'm not sure I believe the curve for 70°C. The cure should asymptotically approach 0, not 60%. That's just not how thermal decay works.

Brew on

I completely agree, thermal degradation rate should go to zero unless some degradation product (denatured enzyme?) begins to stabilize the remaining protein... I’m not defending their data!
Don’t know how many data points were used to generate these curves and maybe they were off on the last few and that skewed the look of the curve.
For reference a- and b-amylase degradation curves from Brewing by Lewis and Young 2nd ed. below.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I'm not sure I believe the curve for 70°C. The cure should asymptotically approach 0, not 60%. That's just not how thermal decay works.

Almost anything is possible in biology - for instance, you could have a monomeric enzyme with 60% activity that's stable up to 75C, that can come together to form unstable complexes with 100% activity.

Again, not trying to defend their data, but as someone who's worked a bit with this kind of stuff, you do get all sorts of weird response curves that make no sense to physicists....

 

[duelerx]

What have you guys thought for achieving good clarity?, my latest Brut had the appearance of a NEIPA with the dry hop. Not that i dislike the haze but for this style i rather want clarity.

 

[TheMadKing]

What have you guys thought for achieving good clarity?, my latest Brut had the appearance of a NEIPA with the dry hop. Not that i dislike the haze but for this style i rather want clarity.

Dry hop it less, and cold storage should do the trick.

 

[Chris-Naz]

Dry hop it less, and cold storage should do the trick.

Ferment fully in primary, cold crash and then dry hop in the keg - should help.
If you aren’t adding calcium during the boil, maybe give that a shot as it can help with yeast flocculation.
Dry hop with lower oil content hops (not Galaxy).
Fine with gelatin.
No US05/wlp001/chico - go for a highly flocculent strain. With enzyme addition you still will get superb attenuation even if it says <70% on the pkg...
Other thoughts?

 

[TheMadKing]

I'm brewing my first round of brut today.. I'm shooting for 25 IBU since that's what Sierra Nevada had in it and it's delicious. I'm also shooting for a balance between citrus and tropical hop flavors with just a hint of pine.

 

[Magnus314]

I figured it out:
https://www.rockstarbrewer.com/how-...n-beer-and-how-brewers-can-minimise-the-risk/

And I believe Amylo makes it worse.

 

[TheMadKing]

I figured it out:
https://www.rockstarbrewer.com/how-...n-beer-and-how-brewers-can-minimise-the-risk/

And I believe Amylo makes it worse.

Adding amylo to the primary should completely solve that issue unless you package it too soon.

If you package your beer when the FG is at 1.000 there's nothing left for the enzymes in the hops to act on so they should have no effect.

Unless I'm missing something?

 

[doug293cz]

Adding amylo to the primary should completely solve that issue unless you package it too soon.

If you package your beer when the FG is at 1.000 there's nothing left for the enzymes in the hops to act on so they should have no effect.

Unless I'm missing something?

Yes, something is missing. In the presence of ethanol, the SG can go below 1.000, since pure ethanol has an SG of 0.789. A mixture of 6% ethanol and water would have an SG of about 0.06 * 0.789 + 0.94 * 1.000 = 0.987. Other compounds (dextrins, proteins, etc.) in beer will normally raise the SG above that. So, fermentation might not be finished at 1.000 in a beer that has had amylogluccosidase (or other enzymes that can act on the alpha 1-6 branch bonds in dextrins) added. The only way to be safe is to monitor the SG during fermentation and only package when it has been stable for days. If it was stable, and you added dry hops, you need to monitor for additional time due to the possible action from hop (or other) enzymes.

Brew on

 

[TheMadKing]

Yes, something is missing. In the presence of ethanol, the SG can go below 1.000, since pure ethanol has an SG of 0.789. A mixture of 6% ethanol and water would have an SG of about 0.06 * 0.789 + 0.94 * 1.000 = 0.987. Other compounds (dextrins, proteins, etc.) in beer will normally raise the SG above that. So, fermentation might not be finished at 1.000 in a beer that has had amylogluccosidase (or other enzymes that can act on the alpha 1-6 branch bonds in dextrins) added. The only way to be safe is to monitor the SG during fermentation and only package when it has been stable for days. If it was stable, and you added dry hops, you need to monitor for additional time due to the possible action from hop (or other) enzymes.

Brew on

Yes I do understand actual vs apparent attenuation. I was being simplistic for the sake of making the point that you can solve the issue of hop creep by simply not packaging too soon (as demonstrated by a stable FG), just as you've said. I should know to be more precise when you're lurking about Doug

 

[TheMadKing]

Has anyone else had crazy and sudden blowouts when using glucoamylase?

I had a nice easy fermentation bubbling away for two full days before I left for a work trip and I came home to one of the biggest blowouts I've ever seen. The yeast all over my ferm chamber was the consistency of peanut butter too... Really different from any other beer I've made.

 

[EDF713]

Has anyone else had crazy and sudden blowouts when using glucoamylase?

I had a nice easy fermentation bubbling away for two full days before I left for a work trip and I came home to one of the biggest blowouts I've ever seen. The yeast all over my ferm chamber was the consistency of peanut butter too... Really different from any other beer I've made.

I wouldn’t call it a blowout, but the one time I tried to make one of these it did completely gum up my blowoff. Same thing, I left for a work trip and came back to a mess. Thankfully I hooked up a blowoff tube rather than an airlock.

 

[TheMadKing]

So based on going back through this thread and my desired goal of a clear champagne style beer here is my process and what I've learned so far after my first hydrometer sample:

Recipe:
7lb pils
2lb flaked corn
0.5lb acid malt

0.25oz magnum @60 min
1 oz each in the WP of Ahtanum, Nelson Sauvin, and Simcoe
2 oz of hallertaur Blanc also in the WP
1 oz each of hallertaur blanc and Simcoe dryhop

Rehydrated US-05 pitched into primary with a full packet of glucoamylase

The wort poured into the fermenter completely cloudy and opaque and that hasn't changed now that fermentation is almost done. So this beer is going to wind up very cloudy and it has something to do with the flaked corn in my mash process I think. It was milky after the mash before I ever added hops. I think the WP also increased the haze significantly. So my next recipe I'm going to go a little old school on my hopping technique

9lb pils
0.5lb acid malt

0.1oz magnum @ 60 min
0.25 oz each @ 5 min of the same hops
1 oz at flame out of hallertaur blanc

Same dry hops

Hopefully this will yield the crisp clear beer I'm after. I don't like sweet hop flavors or intense tropical fruit. Most NEIPA's are not good to me, so hopefully I'll keep this balanced toward to citrus and pine rather than the tropical.

I may revise that based on how this beer ends up, but that's my initial reaction for lessons learned. I may try a a Kveik strain next time or play with getting a FG closer to 1.002 through mashing techniques too.

 

[doug293cz]

So based on going back through this thread and my desired goal of a clear champagne style beer here is my process and what I've learned so far after my first hydrometer sample:

Recipe:
7lb pils
2lb flaked corn
0.5lb acid malt

0.25oz magnum @60 min
1 oz each in the WP of Ahtanum, Nelson Sauvin, and Simcoe
2 oz of hallertaur Blanc also in the WP
1 oz each of hallertaur blanc and Simcoe dryhop

Rehydrated US-05 pitched into primary with a full packet of glucoamylase

The wort poured into the fermenter completely cloudy and opaque and that hasn't changed now that fermentation is almost done. So this beer is going to wind up very cloudy and it has something to do with the flaked corn in my mash process I think. It was milky after the mash before I ever added hops. I think the WP also increased the haze significantly. So my next recipe I'm going to go a little old school on my hopping technique

9lb pils
0.5lb acid malt

0.1oz magnum @ 60 min
0.25 oz each @ 5 min of the same hops
1 oz at flame out of hallertaur blanc

Same dry hops

Hopefully this will yield the crisp clear beer I'm after. I don't like sweet hop flavors or intense tropical fruit. Most NEIPA's are not good to me, so hopefully I'll keep this balanced toward to citrus and pine rather than the tropical.

I may revise that based on how this beer ends up, but that's my initial reaction for lessons learned. I may try a a Kveik strain next time or play with getting a FG closer to 1.002 through mashing techniques too.

If you had unconverted starch in the wort going into the fermenter causing cloudiness, there is a good chance the amyloglucosidase you added will convert it during the fermentation. It may take a while, be patient.

Brew on

 

[TheMadKing]

If you had unconverted starch in the wort going into the fermenter causing cloudiness, there is a good chance the amyloglucosidase you added will convert it during the fermentation. It may take a while, be patient.

Brew on

I would be very surprised if there was any conversion issues but it's possible. It was a BIAB batch with a full volume mash at 150F for 90 minutes, and I stirred every 20 minutes. I didn't perform an iodine test, so it is possible but unlikely.

 

[Grant McKinley]

So based on going back through this thread and my desired goal of a clear champagne style beer here is my process and what I've learned so far after my first hydrometer sample:

Recipe:
7lb pils
2lb flaked corn
0.5lb acid malt

0.25oz magnum @60 min
1 oz each in the WP of Ahtanum, Nelson Sauvin, and Simcoe
2 oz of hallertaur Blanc also in the WP
1 oz each of hallertaur blanc and Simcoe dryhop

Rehydrated US-05 pitched into primary with a full packet of glucoamylase

The wort poured into the fermenter completely cloudy and opaque and that hasn't changed now that fermentation is almost done. So this beer is going to wind up very cloudy and it has something to do with the flaked corn in my mash process I think. It was milky after the mash before I ever added hops. I think the WP also increased the haze significantly. So my next recipe I'm going to go a little old school on my hopping technique

9lb pils
0.5lb acid malt

0.1oz magnum @ 60 min
0.25 oz each @ 5 min of the same hops
1 oz at flame out of hallertaur blanc

Same dry hops

Hopefully this will yield the crisp clear beer I'm after. I don't like sweet hop flavors or intense tropical fruit. Most NEIPA's are not good to me, so hopefully I'll keep this balanced toward to citrus and pine rather than the tropical.

I may revise that based on how this beer ends up, but that's my initial reaction for lessons learned. I may try a a Kveik strain next time or play with getting a FG closer to 1.002 through mashing techniques too.

I had the same issue this weekend using rice. I mashed in at 142 and the wort before boil was cloudy. After boil and whirlpool it remained the same color with a hint more yellow after the hop additions. We'll see, hopefully after fermentation, amylase addition, and cold crash it will clear up some.

 

[TheMadKing]

I had the same issue this weekend using rice. I mashed in at 142 and the wort before boil was cloudy. After boil and whirlpool it remained the same color with a hint more yellow after the hop additions. We'll see, hopefully after fermentation, amylase addition, and cold crash it will clear up some.

Gelatine seems to drop it clear

Before and after with an experimental sample

 

[whovous]

Gelatine seems to drop it clear

Did you use Whirlfloc before gelatin?

 

[whovous]

OK, I've finally finished reading this thread, and I still have a dumb question. Most of the recipes here use about 80% barley, with the rest being corn, rice, wheat or oatmeal. Why not use 100% barley? How does the final product change when the latter products are removed?

 

[EDF713]

OK, I've finally finished reading this thread, and I still have a dumb question. Most of the recipes here use about 80% barley, with the rest being corn, rice, wheat or oatmeal. Why not use 100% barley? How does the final product change when the latter products are removed?

I'm curious to see other responses to this, you'll probably get a lot of different opinions. I'll go first...

From what I understand folks are using things other than barley to add fermentables that increase attenuation, but do not add color or much grain flavor. I made my first attempt at one of these with pale 2 row and a little vienna, used glucoamylase in both the mash and fermenter, it finished at 1.002, and I was happy with it. If you want to make one with all barley go for it. It's your beer, make what you think you'll like.

 

[whovous]

How does that work? Barley alone won't fully attenuate with yeast and glucoamylase alone, but it will fully attenuate when rice, corn, or oats are added? I am not much of a science guy, but can you explain what makes the difference?

Will barley alone ever get me to 1.000 or below?

 

[bleme]

How does that work? Barley alone won't fully attenuate with yeast and glucoamylase alone, but it will fully attenuate when rice, corn, or oats are added? I am not much of a science guy, but can you explain what makes the difference?

Will barley alone ever get me to 1.000 or below?

Are you using enzyme? If so, unless you're using it purely to jack up the ABV, you could ditch the corn sugar. I mashed mine low 140s and have no adjuncts. The enzyme brought it down to 0.997 in a week.

No adjuncts and got below 1.000, so it CAN be done. He used Amyloglucosidase in the fermentor.
https://brewhaus.com/gluco-amylase-enzyme-amyloglucosidase-2oz/

 

[EDF713]

No adjuncts and got below 1.000, so it CAN be done. He used Amyloglucosidase in the fermentor.
https://brewhaus.com/gluco-amylase-enzyme-amyloglucosidase-2oz/

What he said. Corn and Rice just attenuate more than barley alone, but with the glucoamylase, looks like you can get there.

 

[Darthbrewder]

The addition of adjuncts is to increase the final gravity without adding color. The point of the style is to have a beer that is like champagne, in color and dryness, with most of the flavor coming from the hops.

 

[whovous]

The addition of adjuncts is to increase the final gravity without adding color. The point of the style is to have a beer that is like champagne, in color and dryness, with most of the flavor coming from the hops.

I wouldn't mind adding a little color. I noticed one person in this thread added a little victory malt to do just that. If the corn/rice are not necessary for the final flavor of the beer, it makes sense to me to skip them.

One more thing... I assume you mean adjuncts are added to increase the original gravity, since the goal of adding glucoamylase is to lower the final gravity, not to increase it.

 

[Grant McKinley]

After 3 days mine is at 1.008, its started at 1.028, (which was low should have been 1.050). It is starting to clear up a bit. Just added 6 oz. of dry hop and 5 ml amylase. We'll see how it goes after a couple week cold crash starting in a few days.

 

[gunhaus]

1.028 ? AND 6 oz of dry hops? Won't that make a REALLY hoppy mild?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I don't know about across the pond, but in the UK there's a bit of a thing at the moment for hoppy table beers in that 2.8-3.2% range. They're a tough one to pull off but they're great for that cheeky 2/3 of a pint at lunchtime that doesn't really touch the sides.

 

[EDF713]

I don't know about across the pond, but in the UK there's a bit of a thing at the moment for hoppy table beers in that 2.8-3.2% range. They're a tough one to pull off but they're great for that cheeky 2/3 of a pint at lunchtime that doesn't really touch the sides.

I haven't seen them much in Houston or my travels, but Cali and the East coast usually lead the trends. I would love a hoppy lighter beer, it's why I went with a 1.042 OG when I tried my hand at a Brut. Only problem with that is I drink 3 or 4 of them rather than one!

 

[bleme]

I don't know about across the pond, but in the UK there's a bit of a thing at the moment for hoppy table beers in that 2.8-3.2% range. They're a tough one to pull off but they're great for that cheeky 2/3 of a pint at lunchtime that doesn't really touch the sides.

The closest I have seen are all the session IPA's that went through a couple of years ago.

 

[Shenanigans]

I haven't seen them much in Houston or my travels, but Cali and the East coast usually lead the trends. I would love a hoppy lighter beer, it's why I went with a 1.042 OG when I tried my hand at a Brut. Only problem with that is I drink 3 or 4 of them rather than one!

I like the name coined by an Irish brewery (first place I saw it anyway)

Micro IPA

My favorite one from that style is Whiplash Northern Lights Micro IPA.

2.8% but tastes like a APA, not watery at all.

The secret is to add body by mashing high (over 70oC), using a malty base malt (Vienna) and some oat and wheat malts and an medium attenuating yeast (London III). The use of loads of mosaic in the whirlpool and dry hop also add perceived sweetness which probably helps beef it up a bit too.
Very tasty stuff and you can easily drink 3 or 4 or 5 without blowing your head of.

It's on my next to brew list

Anyway I'll stop hijacking this thread now

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I went with a 1.042 OG when I tried my hand at a Brut. Only problem with that is I drink 3 or 4 of them rather than one!

Welcome to British drinking culture...! Sessionability should be one of the most prized attributes of a beer.

The closest I have seen are all the session IPA's that went through a couple of years ago.

Don't forget that even many of the session IPAs come in over the 4.5% ABV that most British drinkers think of as the boundary that defines "strong". A combination of culture, taxation (proportional to ABV, and doubles over 7.5%) and a strong anti-drink-driving culture mean that historically we think of 4% as normal strength for beer.

It's changing a bit under the influence of US craft culture, particularly in cities where there is a viable public transport system, but you are seeing a distinctly British fusion of US craft meeting UK pub culture - for instance in the pale New World "bests" in cask at around 4.2-4.6%.

It's really interesting watching breweries that start off trying to clone US craft, who then open taps or city-centre bars and find themselves talking to actual customers. The first thing that happens is that they make a lager because that's what casual drinkers tend to drink - even hardcore cask ale places can find lager making up 50-60% of draught sales.

They also find that
a) British drinkers will insist on drinking (20oz) pints, regardless of strength
b) it's rather more profitable to have someone who comes into your bar for 6 pints and a bit of food than a schooner of the latest fenugreek and avocado imperial stout which is undrinkable in any larger quantities. I get the impression that many US breweries still haven't worked this out?
c) it's not much fun as a publican dealing with people who've had a few pints of 7% DIPA

So I see these table beers as an attempt to cater to the customers' need for a session beer they can spend the night on, whilst still having the odd half of something stronger.

Cloudwater is a good example - it was their DIPAs that pushed them ahead of Trillium, Treehouse etc in the Ratebeer rankings, but I suspect that these days the DIPAs are a smaller part of their business than most people would expect, as the volume is in the smaller beers. Although they make a big thing of revamping their range every 6 months, they seem to have settled down to making beers in four main categories - table beers at ~2.8%, lagers (often with a bit of an IPL-y twist) at ~5%, IPAs at 5.5% and then DIPAs.

 

[EDF713]

Welcome to British drinking culture...! Sessionability should be one of the most prized attributes of a beer.



Don't forget that even many of the session IPAs come in over the 4.5% ABV that most British drinkers think of as the boundary that defines "strong". A combination of culture, taxation (proportional to ABV, and doubles over 7.5%) and a strong anti-drink-driving culture mean that historically we think of 4% as normal strength for beer.

It's changing a bit under the influence of US craft culture, particularly in cities where there is a viable public transport system, but you are seeing a distinctly British fusion of US craft meeting UK pub culture - for instance in the pale New World "bests" in cask at around 4.2-4.6%.

It's really interesting watching breweries that start off trying to clone US craft, who then open taps or city-centre bars and find themselves talking to actual customers. The first thing that happens is that they make a lager because that's what casual drinkers tend to drink - even hardcore cask ale places can find lager making up 50-60% of draught sales.

They also find that
a) British drinkers will insist on drinking (20oz) pints, regardless of strength
b) it's rather more profitable to have someone who comes into your bar for 6 pints and a bit of food than a schooner of the latest fenugreek and avocado imperial stout which is undrinkable in any larger quantities. I get the impression that many US breweries still haven't worked this out?
c) it's not much fun as a publican dealing with people who've had a few pints of 7% DIPA

So I see these table beers as an attempt to cater to the customers' need for a session beer they can spend the night on, whilst still having the odd half of something stronger.

Cloudwater is a good example - it was their DIPAs that pushed them ahead of Trillium, Treehouse etc in the Ratebeer rankings, but I suspect that these days the DIPAs are a smaller part of their business than most people would expect, as the volume is in the smaller beers. Although they make a big thing of revamping their range every 6 months, they seem to have settled down to making beers in four main categories - table beers at ~2.8%, lagers (often with a bit of an IPL-y twist) at ~5%, IPAs at 5.5% and then DIPAs.

I hope it catches on here. The 12 oz serving, rather than the imperial pint, is working against it, among other things. I'd rather have a couple pints of British ordinary bitter or mild, or German leichtbier, than one dipa. Besides my expanding waistline, that's why I brew lower gravity beers. I also think brewers working more with enzymes for beers like brut ipa is a good thing for this, I love the idea of a light bodied and lower calorie beer with craft beer hop flavor and aroma.

 

[Grant McKinley]

1.028 ? AND 6 oz of dry hops? Won't that make a REALLY hoppy mild?

Following a recipe I got. Looks like it will be a hop infused coors light. Maybe I'll be lucky and it will be low carb and taste like a Sam 76.

 

[Grant McKinley]

I hope it catches on here. The 12 oz serving, rather than the imperial pint, is working against it, among other things. I'd rather have a couple pints of British ordinary bitter or mild, or German leichtbier, than one dipa. Besides my expanding waistline, that's why I brew lower gravity beers. I also think brewers working more with enzymes for beers like brut ipa is a good thing for this, I love the idea of a light bodied and lower calorie beer with craft beer hop flavor and aroma.

That's what I'm after. I don't necessarily want to get a buzz but like to drink a few. Might as well taste good.

 

[jaymosbeershack]

Brewing my third Brut today. The other 2 only got to 1.001, so gonna over pitch and heavily aerate. Enzyme in both mash and fermenter. Hopefully i can get this one to 0.998