Anyone brewing Brut IPA?

[Darthbrewder]

I’ve been interested in brewing this beer for a while now and on January 1 I finally got around to brewing it. I read this entire thread and as of yet haven’t seen anyone mention a couple of the things that I used/tried. So I figured I would share my experience thus far. Recipe as follows:

5 gallon biab
5lbs Briess pale malt
42oz minute rice(3 boxes)
.5 oz mosaic @ 15 mins
.5 oz mosaic @ flameout
2 oz mosaic @ pitch

1 ml glucoamylase mash
2 ml glucoamylase fermenter

Since I don’t have the means or rather I’m too lazy, I didn’t adjust my water at all, just filtered tap water.

Gathered 3 gallons of water and added all my grains to the kettle in the bag along with 1 ml of enzyme at room temp ~70°.
Slowly heated the mash to 145° over about 45 mins. Rested at 145 for an hour. Removed the grains and “sparged” with 1 and 1/2 gallons room temp water. Ended up with 4 gallons of wort. Which is what I intended since my kitchen kettle is only 5 gallons. Can’t remember offhand cause I don’t have my notes with me but I believe the pre boil gravity was around 1.062. Boiled for an hour and cooled while adding hops at the designated times. Added wort to fermenter and topped off with water. Gravity was 1.046. Added 2oz hops and 2ml enzyme aerated and pitched yeast.

Time will tell but so far it’s been chugging along steady since about 12 hours after pitch. I used 1 rehydrated packet of us-05.

I hope this turns out good, after reading several of the recipes here and online I feel like I may have not used enough hops. We’ll see.

 

[isomerization]

You can always dry hop again, keeping IBUs low is important with this style, most likely cause of bad BRUT.

 

[kevink]

So I finally had a BRUT IPA. It was Stone Enjoy By 1/1/2018 and it was absolutely horrible. It was not very dry and it just tasted like any other Stone that was malty, old, and oxidized. I assume it's not a very good example of the style, but I would like to hear from others who have tried it and other BRUT IPAs.

 

[Sbe2]

I may be the first person to stress a Kveik style yeast.

I used about a tablespoon of Hothead in 5.5 gallons of 1.064 wort fermented around 84. It dropped to 1.001 and is very boozy and has some yeast bite after being in the keg for over a month. I used 7 oz of NS total and am thinking they were old from like 3 years ago, but were still in their original packaging so who knows. It’s drinkable, but I am super sensitive to that yeasty flavor that it’s definitely off putting.

 

[RocketBrewer]

So I finally had a BRUT IPA. It was Stone Enjoy By 1/1/2018 and it was absolutely horrible. It was not very dry and it just tasted like any other Stone that was malty, old, and oxidized. I assume it's not a very good example of the style, but I would like to hear from others who have tried it and other BRUT IPAs.

Don't judge the style based on Stone's, although I generally love most of Stone's beers, I thought this was one of the worst examples of the style that I've had. Not sure what's available to you locally, but I recently had one from Sierra Nevada that I thought was a much better example, though certainly not the best one I've had. Brewing my 3rd Brut at the moment.

 

[jaymosbeershack]

I just got done brewing my third brut ipa. Did 6 gallons that i will be splitting into 3 gallons of belinni(peach) and 3 gallons of kir royal(blackberry). Its my first batch with a tilt hydrometer. Cant wait to see how fast the Voss chews it up. Gonna add the enzyme when it gets down to about 1.025.

 

[isomerization]

I just got done brewing my third brut ipa. Did 6 gallons that i will be splitting into 3 gallons of belinni(peach) and 3 gallons of kir royal(blackberry). Its my first batch with a tilt hydrometer. Cant wait to see how fast the Voss chews it up. Gonna add the enzyme when it gets down to about 1.025.

Why wait until then to add the enzyme? I did a BRUT with Hornindal at 90+F, added the enzyme when pitching the yeast and gravity was stable within 24 hr.

 

[jaymosbeershack]

Why wait until then to add the enzyme? I did a BRUT with Hornindal at 90+F, added the enzyme when pitching the yeast and gravity was stable within 24 hr.

There was just an article in zymergy that said waiting can help with yeast health. Pretty much let the yeast work on the slightly tougher sugars and give it a bunch of glucose for dessert. I added it at pitch on my other 2 batches, but want to see if this gets it even dryer.

 

[isomerization]

There was just an article in zymergy that said waiting can help with yeast health. Pretty much let the yeast work on the slightly tougher sugars and give it a bunch of glucose for dessert. I added it at pitch on my other 2 batches, but want to see if this gets it even dryer.

I haven’t read the article, so maybe I missing something, but this seems like you’re working your yeast harder. Glucoamylase will remove the “tougher” sugars from the wort.

Did your previous BRUT attempts not reach 1.000 (or lower)?

 

[jaymosbeershack]

I haven’t read the article, so maybe I missing something, but this seems like you’re working your yeast harder. Glucoamylase will remove the “tougher” sugars from the wort.

Did your previous BRUT attempts not reach 1.000 (or lower)?

Both finished at 1.001

 

[Darthbrewder]

It has been 4 days since I started my brut and i checked it this morning and it seems like it is finishing up. Pulled a sample to test the gravity(which I don’t normally do until right before I bottle)and it has fermented to dryness.

Even with the carbonation and hop debris floating around in the sample it still reads 1.000. The aroma is really nice, tropical and citrus fruits. It makes my mouth water. I drunk half the sample that I pulled and it obviously needs more time. Definitely dry, not much of any flavor from the grains that I can perceive. No bitterness except for the last bit that had some hops in there. Going to let this one clear on its own at least another 7 days, 14 if it looks like it’s making progress but not quite done. So far I’m still pretty excited but I am patient enough to wait to see if it improves, or needs improvement.

 

[Joewalla88]

I just kegged my first attempt at one of these, and it finished at 1.008. Kinda bummed since that's where my IPAs generally end up without amaylaze. Would it be a bad idea to add some to the keg while it carbs up? I prime my kegs with sugar so it will be sitting at room temp for a whole longer.

 

[doug293cz]

I just kegged my firstI shed at attempt at one of these, and it finished at 1.008. Kinda bummed since that's where my IPAs generally end up without amaylaze. Would it be a bad idea to add some to the keg while it carbs up? I prime my kegs with sugar so it will be sitting at room temp for a whole longer.

Adding some glucoamylase (not plain amylase) to the keg while it carbs can't hurt. You should use a spunding valve tho, so that the pressure does not build up too much.

Brew on

 

[Joewalla88]

Adding some glucoamylase (not plain amylase) to the keg while it carbs can't hurt. You should use a spunding valve tho, so that the pressure does not build up too much.

Brew on

That's the problem right there. I remember when I searched for it online I searched glucoamylase, but I just read the bottle, and it's just amylase. Maybe the lhbs has it. Otherwise I have a really good session ipa I guess.

 

[Joewalla88]

That's the problem right there. I remember when I searched for it online I searched glucoamylase, but I just read the bottle, and it's just amylase. Maybe the lhbs has it. Otherwise I have a really good session ipa I guess.

Lhbs had one bottle. I poured a tablespoon into the keg this afternoon. Think everything will be fine. Sorry for the interruption.

 

[Joewalla88]

Okay, so that seems to be working. I made a mess getting a sample from the keg, but it was down to 1.000-1.002 ish. I was thinking it should be in the .9s by tomorrow evening. What do you think? Not sure I want to take another sample till it's done, because it's a little over carbed right now and a little messy getting a sample at the moment.

 

[Darthbrewder]

Has anyone here tried using Kveik? I’m going to order some today and try it. It seems like given this yeasts ability to ferment clean at a wide range of temperatures and fruity ester profile that it would be great for this “style”.

 

[Joewalla88]

Has anyone here tried using Kveik? I’m going to order some today and try it. It seems like given this yeasts ability to ferment clean at a wide range of temperatures and fruity ester profile that it would be great for this “style”.

I have some imperial Loki that I usethinking in a blonde ale. It was a beast, I was wondering the same thing for this style. I think it would be great.

 

[rjs3273]

The general consensus has been to go easy on the hops and aim for much lower bitterness than traditional IPAs. That makes sense in theory, but never one to take anything for granted, I decided to ignore all advice and simply brew a couple of my normal recipes as split batches, half with the glucoamylase and half without. Though an interesting experiment, I will not be repeating it and am happy to now vote with the consensus. To my palate, the 'normal IPA' fermented out to a final gravity <1.000 just tastes rough. It is not that it is "too bitter", but rather that the bitterness is very harsh. It reminds me more of sucking on a dandelion stem than a hop cone.

Everyone please feel free to say, "I told you so" and it was a stupid thing to try. That's fine. It's certainly not the stupidest brewing experiment I've tried. I just thought I would report my data point in case anyone was interested.

 

[Darthbrewder]

This is 7 days after bottling. Fully carbed, dry as a bone and extremely smashable. I don’t remember the amount of sugar I added to prime but I primed for 2.9 volumes of co2. I also added 1 more oz of mosaic 3 days before I bottled. Really shocked that this ended up so clear. I like the amount of aroma and flavor that the hops contributed as well. When I brew another I’ll be adding 2 more oz of hops just to see if there is a difference. This is so good I would definitely brew this exact recipe again. But since this is the only brut I have ever tried and brewed I can’t help but tweak it a bit.

 

[shade0428]

I brewed one 3 weeks ago, with 100% pilsmalt. Used wlp644 yeast, did not make a starter, pitched both ultra ferm and yeast at the same time and fermented from 1.062 to 1.005 in a week. To my dismay, low flocculation of the yeast would not let me get this beer clear ‍ however it was a brütiful hazy dry ipa. ‍[emoji482]

 

[Jeff_C]

https://www.homebrewing.org/FermFas...MI14vglJWO3gIVAgdpCh0PCgLfEAQYAiABEgLirvD_BwE

This is what I used, super cheap and worked great.

I just grabbed a pack of that stuff for my next batch. How much did you use? When did you add it?

 

[shade0428]

View attachment 608554

This is 7 days after bottling. Fully carbed, dry as a bone and extremely smashable. I don’t remember the amount of sugar I added to prime but I primed for 2.9 volumes of co2. I also added 1 more oz of mosaic 3 days before I bottled. Really shocked that this ended up so clear. I like the amount of aroma and flavor that the hops contributed as well. When I brew another I’ll be adding 2 more oz of hops just to see if there is a difference. This is so good I would definitely brew this exact recipe again. But since this is the only brut I have ever tried and brewed I can’t help but tweak it a bit.

I put 10oz of hops into mine Brut. Crux brewery in Bend Or. has the best brut in my opinion. I believe they use little amount of grain for color and dextrose to get their abv. Itll be my next go around to brew it that way.

 

[isomerization]

I just grabbed a pack of that stuff for my next batch. How much did you use? When did you add it?

I used the entire packet (sanitized like a dry yeast packet just in case lol), which was pitched after my hopstand (~140F, don’t exceed 65C per instructions). Worked like a champ!

 

[isomerization]

I put 10oz of hops into mine Brut. Crux brewery in Bend Or. has the best brut in my opinion. I believe they use little amount of grain for color and dextrose to get their abv. Itll be my next go around to brew it that way.

All Pilsner malt will do you just fine, swap out some gravity for flaked rice or corn. Sugar is unnecessary imo.

 

[shade0428]

I used 100% pills. It worked great, however the dryness, color, and slight tartness made their brut that much better.

 

[Jeff_C]

I used the entire packet (sanitized like a dry yeast packet just in case lol), which was pitched after my hopstand (~140F, don’t exceed 65C per instructions). Worked like a champ!

That’s great! Thanks for the reply. Looking forward to trying it out

 

[Brooothru]

Adding some glucoamylase (not plain amylase) to the keg while it carbs can't hurt. You should use a spunding valve tho, so that the pressure does not build up too much.

Brew on

So, I've been following this thread and read most of the links posted, doing my research and due diligence. I came across a FAQ sheet on the White Labs website concerning saccharomyces cerevasiae var. diastaticus and it got me to thinking, which can be a worrisome thing for me. Anyway, I'm hoping that somebody here with a stronger background in microbiology than me can ease my angst.

The nagging fear I have is the persistent nature of glucoamylaise (amyloglucosidase) in breaking down the 1-4 and 1-6 branches of the starches in beer, remaining in cold side equipment long after fermentation is complete. I ferment in stainless steel and follow good sanitation practices, but what about transfer lines and other non-metallic items that come in contact with the wort as well as the finished beer? Can diastaticus lurk in the scratches, kinks and creases of things besides the fermentation tank? If so, can this multiply between uses and cause an over-attenuation (best case scenario) or infection (worst case scenario) in subsequent batches?

I ask this highly technical question only because of a past experience I had after using amylase enzyme about a year ago. I was brewing quite a few beers for competition (10 or so) and was trying to speed up my process. After the sixth beer (which I'd started using amylase enzyme in the fermenter), each subsequent beer had comments and lower scores from the judges with the common theme of "possible contamination" or "pay closer attention to sanitation", etc. I ruled out pedio, and as I said I practice good sanitation protocols. Because of time, I was brewing in plastic fermenters to up the turnaround time but was still cleaning with PBW followed by Star San and air drying between equipment uses, just as I had with the first five batches. Since then, I now only ferment in stainless and do all transfers from boil pot to fermenter to keg under positive pressure into sanitized and CO2 purged vessels. I guess what I need to know is, is this enough?

Granted, the enzymes are denatured fully during the boil. For that reason I'm leaning toward a process that involves only adding amylase enzyme and/or amyloglucosidase to the mash, and never to the fermenter.

I know also that it's not uncommon for even the best breweries to battle with occasional infections despite their investments in equipment sanitation. Sours and bretts are often brewed in different areas set apart from the other lines. I remember a few years back when Dogfish Head had to dump their entire once-a-year batch of 120 Minute IPA. So it can happen to the best as well as we lowly home brewers.

This new phenomenon of Brut IPA popularity with the wholesale addition of enzymes may be bringing with it some issues we've not experienced before in either the home brewing or craft beer scene. Maybe we should be giving some scrutiny to this potential and adjust our processes accordingly.

Or I could just be obsessing over something that really isn't a "thing", and I'm just as full of crap as my wife keeps telling me. Either way, your input is appreciated.

Brooo Brother

 

[brew703]

I've brewed one Brut and didn't see any issues with my stainless fermenter or the lines I use. I clean all lines with Oxy then rinse and before use they are hit with Starsan.
Batches brewed using same equipment and lines after the Brut didn't see any effects of the enzyme I used.

 

[isomerization]

Glucoamylase is an enzyme, it does not replicate and would pose very little to zero threat if good sanitation practices are followed.

 

[rjs3273]

I agree (without any formal micro-biology training!) that with proper cleaning, persistence from one batch to the next ought not be an issue. As others say, the enzyme would not be replicating.

However, something else you said definitely rings a bell with me. I have in the past done two experiments with glucoamylase in the fermentor and both had flavours that I would have called possible contamination. They were different yeasts each time, but both gave me unexpected flavours I had never had from those respective yeasts before. They were phenolic, tending most towards clove. I would have thought there was some wild yeast in there. Of course I cannot now prove that there wasn't, but the only two times I have ever had the problem were the two times I tried glucoamylase. There was not a hint of it in the subsequent three batches so it does not seem to be something lurking in the equipment.

I am not claiming anything definitive and plenty of people seem to be having great success with it, but I thought it was interesting in the light of your comment on your judges' notes.

 

[Brooothru]

I agree (without any formal micro-biology training!) that with proper cleaning, persistence from one batch to the next ought not be an issue. As others say, the enzyme would not be replicating.

However, something else you said definitely rings a bell with me. I have in the past done two experiments with glucoamylase in the fermentor and both had flavours that I would have called possible contamination. They were different yeasts each time, but both gave me unexpected flavours I had never had from those respective yeasts before. They were phenolic, tending most towards clove. I would have thought there was some wild yeast in there. Of course I cannot now prove that there wasn't, but the only two times I have ever had the problem were the two times I tried glucoamylase. There was not a hint of it in the subsequent three batches so it does not seem to be something lurking in the equipment.

I am not claiming anything definitive and plenty of people seem to be having great success with it, but I thought it was interesting in the light of your comment on your judges' notes.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

That's it. Phenols. Now it's starting to come together. Could it be that some tiny leftover amylase enzyme got together with some random starch who'd previously hooked up with a wild yeast and had an orgy in one of my transfer lines? Probably that damned siphon rod. Never again.

Glad to hear that it's not been a problem with other brewers. Still, I think I'll stick to hot-side only with regards to enzymes for the time being, knowing that the heat of mash out and the boil will neuter them. With glyco and a high attenuating yeast like Pac-Man or WLP090 I should be able to get FG down to 0° Plato if I wait long enough.

Thanks guys.

Brooo Brother

 

[isomerization]

I doubt the enzyme itself was the cause of the (potential) contamination. Perhaps the act of adding it to the fermenter?

I’m not saying you won’t like a BRUT IPA with glucoamylase added only in the mash, but don’t expect to get down to 1.000 with a clean american ale yeast, no matter how long wait.

 

[Brooothru]

I’m not saying you won’t like a BRUT IPA with glucoamylase added only in the mash, but don’t expect to get down to 1.000 with a clean american ale yeast, no matter how long wait.

How about Wyeast 1318 London Ale III? I did a Blonde Ale using it recently and got it down to 1.004 after a 3 week single stage fermentation at 65-68F. I couldn't believe the gravity reading from the refractometer but verified with a narrow range hydrometer (0.080 - 1.020 SG). I did roust the yeast cake a couple of times with a CO2 blast. Impressive performance, but I'm not sure of the flavor profile for a brut.

Brooo Brother

 

[Brooothru]

How about Wyeast 1318 London Ale III? I did a Blonde Ale using it recently and got it down to 1.004 after a 3 week single stage fermentation at 65-68F.

Forgot to add: Didn't use enzymes.

B.Bro

 

[Comfort_Zone]

Once it's available in homebrew pitches, Omega's new yeast could be a viable option.

https://omegayeast.com/yeast/hybrids/gulo-ale

 

[isomerization]

How about Wyeast 1318 London Ale III? I did a Blonde Ale using it recently and got it down to 1.004 after a 3 week single stage fermentation at 65-68F. I couldn't believe the gravity reading from the refractometer but verified with a narrow range hydrometer (0.080 - 1.020 SG). I did roust the yeast cake a couple of times with a CO2 blast. Impressive performance, but I'm not sure of the flavor profile for a brut.

Brooo Brother

I’d guess that the flavor would still be different. Only one way to find out.

 

[Brooothru]

Once it's available in homebrew pitches, Omega's new yeast could be a viable option.

https://omegayeast.com/yeast/hybrids/gulo-ale

That thing sounds like a beast. I might give it a go if I can get my hands on it.

The only possible warning flag might be the positive test for STA1. As I understand it, STA1 is a genetic marker for wild yeast, or at least a wild yeast mutation. That's desirable, or at least normal, in lambics, Bretts and sours. But it is not desirable in other styles. The persistent nature in these strains (diastaticus) as well as purely wild yeast strains is why such care is given to high target yeast pitching rates so that they can outnumber and eventually eliminate any invaders. That's the concern that brought me to post my initial query, to see if anyone had experienced any such 'infections'.

After my issues last year with judges sensing problems with several of my beers, I stopped brewing for a few months while taking steps to remediate possible sources. I got rid of old equipment (mostly plastic fermenters, siphon rods, non-stainless utensils, etc.) and replaced with glass or stainless steel wherever I could. I did a thorough deep cleaning of every piece of equipment remaining with TSP followed by PBW followed by an extended soak in Star San. I replaced ball valves with butterfly valves where I could, and disassembled and deep cleaned those that couldn't be replaced. I've probably got 100' of new hoses and lines. The various and sundry items are stored between uses in an old plastic fermenter with lid (also deep cleaned) that contains an old champaign bottle filled with Campden powder and water to give off sulphur to mitigate any molds, yeasts or bacteria. I scrubbed down the floor and walls of my brew area with Clorox (that wasn't a pleasant task). After more than 20 years of brewing it probably needed to get done, but I'm NOT doing that again! SWMBO wouldn't let me spend the $$$ anyway. For some reason she says I'm obsessive.

I'm confident now in the cleanliness of my brew area and equipment and equally confident in my processes and procedures. After all the time, effort and money I've put into it, I don't want to screw the pooch (again).

Brooo Brother

 

[Brooothru]

I’d guess that the flavor would still be different. Only one way to find out.

After reviewing my notes I found that the super attenuator was actually Notty and not the #1318, which also attenuated quite well BTW. Comfort_Zone shared a link to a new Omega Yeast that might just be the ticket. Sounds like just what the Brut needs: clean, neutral, no esters, plus a real heavy duty maltose muncher. I'll be on the lookout for it.

Brooo Brother

 

[Comfort_Zone]

@Brooothru

STA1 is more of an indicator of whether a yeast is diastatic in nature or not. It's not 100% reliable but it's a good starting point. At the end of the day it's still just a yeast though. Good cleaning and sanitizing procedures are still best practice. Heck, I've used Brett several times in my plastic fermenters and haven't had an infection yet. I've made some bad beers but that's another story [emoji23]