Anybody dilute FINISHED Beer to lower ABV?

[Broothru]

I know adding additional sterile water prior to fermenting a sweet wort to lower OG is a 'thing', but how about after fermentation has reached FG? I've been experimenting for the first time with my established processes and procedures on my "dialed-in" equipment profiles to create half batch volumes and have been experiencing higher efficiencies to the point where my OGs are slightly higher than designed, causing my FGs and ABVs to be (technically) out-of-style. I've used the Scaling tool in BeerSmith to proportion my smaller recipes, but the OGs and efficiencies have been higher than desired. I can adjust future batches accordingly, but I currently have two pilot batches that ended up being 2~3 points above planned going into the fermenter, and are now 0.2% to 0.5% above the range specified in BJCP guidelines. Blame it on superior brewing skills and yeast propagation, I guess .

Anyway, since these are just pilot batches, I thought I might give it a try. My latest Kolsch was at 5.2% and 1.009/2.3P this morning, still showing slight signs of bubbling in the spunding valve. A fast ferment test predicted right at this gravity, but my test batch for this particular yeast a few weeks ago hit FG of 1.007, which would result in 0.2% ABV above range for Kolsch style. Normally I would be happy with a slightly higher than predicted OG, and wouldn't fret an ABV that was slightly out of range. But both the OG and (it appears) the FG/ABV were/will be higher than I'd planned. My target numbers were squarely in the mid-range, but my actual numbers will be out-of-range on the high side.

So, I'm proposing to try dilution to bring the FG/ABV down to the midrange desired values. My plan is to boil the calculated amount of distilled water, cool it and then refrigerate it to my cold crashed temperature, transfer under pressure into my purged/sanitized serving keg, and finally transfer the finished beer from the fermenter into the keg under pressure. That will hopefully eliminate or at least mitigate the introduction of unwanted micro organisms while also adequately blending and diluting the water and beer.

Are there any pitfalls or factors I'm missing? Will 'sterile' water mix with fermented beer without stratifying? As I said, I haven't been able to find older threads or articles that mentioned finished beer being diluted with water. Just finished beers being blended together. Using a 'test' beer reduces any downside risks, but what, if any, are the potential downside risks as the beer ages and conditions?

(note: I'm not really OCD, anal-retentive, or obsessed with perfection. Well, maybe... Just curious if anyone else has tried doing this... I think).

 

[mac_1103]

I've never added plain water to finished beer, but I have added lactose and maltodextrin dissolved in water at packaging or even post-packaging. It sounds like you're looking at pretty small volume additions. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work. As for stratification, I would think that racking the beer on top of the water should mix everything adequately, but you can always give the keg a good shake.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

Kinda... I'm not a fan of IPAs or overly hopped beers, so I will dilute a hoppy beer with a Miller Lite or Shiner to tame it to an pale. This often results in a lower ABV.

Depending what I have on tap (3), I may do a suicide. Kinda broadens the variety.

 

[kevin58]

You indicate you have a "dialed in" equipment profile but have you created a new profile for the smaller batches? If you are using software to scale your recipes as I do it is kind of important that you have both.

 

[Broothru]

You indicate you have a "dialed in" equipment profile but have you created a new profile for the smaller batches? If you are using software to scale your recipes as I do it is kind of important that you have both.

Yes. I did establish two new equipment profiles, at least for mashing since fermentation should have no discernible scalable differences, assuming similar scaled yeast cell counts with scaled volumes of pitched yeasts. The different equipment variables are not necessarily linear with different volumes, nor was I expecting them to be. I figured I could fine tune them based on different outcomes. I'm on my third revision now, and hopefully getting closer to the desired empirical outcomes. For now, I'm just looking to adjust my current test batches so I can brew repeatable follow on batches and be able to compare "apples to apples" differences.

 

[tdf]

One issue with this is that you’ll be adding a lot of dissolved oxygen to your finished beer. I wouldn’t do it without a way to mitigate that. Boiling the water is good, but unless you chill it in an environment without oxygen it’ll come right back

 

[Willy]

I know this is impractical and perhaps wrong - but I will admit it. Sometimes, I will just toss an ice cube or two in a freshly poured glass. I am not messing with the batch, just the glass of fresh beer. It works and lowers ABV I suspect.

 

[Broothru]

One issue with this is that you’ll be adding a lot of dissolved oxygen to your finished beer. I wouldn’t do it without a way to mitigate that. Boiling the water is good, but unless you chill it in an environment without oxygen it’ll come right back

Good point. I hadn't even considered O2 pickup. Usually, on the day before brew day I use yeast oxygen scavenging to reduce DO to near zero. But if I then boil it, the yeast would get denatured and O2 pickup would resume. If I boil first and then add yeast, I'd be reintroducing viable yeast to the mix. Then, it's back to square one.

 

[day_trippr]

Could you follow the YOS with K-meta and use the result?

Cheers!

 

[Brewsmith]

I recall an episode on the Brewing Network years ago where Tasty took his Dortmunder and diluted it to make a 3% or so beer for the golf course. IIRC, he transferred carbonated water into the finished beer in a keg-to-keg transfer.

 

[DavidBD]

"My plan is to boil the calculated amount of distilled water, cool it and then refrigerate it to my cold crashed temperature, transfer under pressure into my purged/sanitized serving keg, and finally transfer the finished beer from the fermenter into the keg under pressure."

Not all distilled water actually tastes good. In theory, it should be super pure and neutral, right? The reality may be different. Depending on the producer, it might taste like the machinery/still that it came from and it often tastes of plastic. Distilled water might be good enough for your steam iron, but not designed for drinking. Direct experience is best. I suggest tasting some of it. You might find you prefer reverse osmosis water or just bottled spring water, which you can boil for a few minutes to sanitize. Adding water can also affect, and probably raise, your beer pH.

 

[Peebee]

Anybody dilute FINISHED Beer to lower ABV?

Guinness apparently!

They brew their "base" beer at high gravity (1.070?) and dilute back with their roast barley flavour "extract" (which they export about the world for making "Guinness Stout") and water (the latter I've presumed?).

So, if it's good enough for Guinness, it's good enough for ... (Well, that's debatable depending on your view of that awful stuff ... which sort of gives away my opinion!).



(He starts talking about actual recipe about 41 minutes in).

[EDIT: Might have been on iPlayer ... "Inside the Factory" Series 8, "Stout" which is no longer available, was geographically knobbled, and asked if you had a UK TV licence. But I'm sure Martin doesn't mind publicity for his program. ]

 

[Broothru]

Could you follow the YOS with K-meta and use the result?

Cheers!

It would be possible, but ... In addition to YOS, I also treat the mash and transfer to the fermenter with small dosings of 'trifecta' (BrewTan B, K-Meta and ascorbic acid). They are small dosings, but I'm reluctant to add anymore Meta (sulfates). A little goes a long way. 'More than a little' can easily become 'too much.'

I did think up a different work-around. Distilled water is functionally free of DO. After all, distilled water is often used to zero-out DO meters. So, my reasoning goes, if I take a sealed bottle of distilled H2O (therefore hasn't reached equilibrium with atmospheric air), pour the desired dilution volume into a PET bottle and immediately cap it with a carbonation cap, then CO2 purge several times and pressure transfer it to a sanitized and purged serving keg prior to filling with the finished beer, I should be able to accomplish a 'LoDO' dilution. Not O2-free, but pretty darn close.

It's the same process on a larger scale that I use to dose Biofine into my serving kegs before pressure transferring finished beer from a brite tank. The aggressive flow of beer into the keg ensures thorough mixing. So as long as there isn't any later separation or stratification of the dilution water, it should provide a relatively simple (and proven) system to diluting finished beer.

Since this is not a 'finished' beer for competition (and is just a half-batch), the downside risks are worth the likely reward. If it works I'll have comparable samples to evaluate in choosing my final recipe, plus have added another tool in the brewing toolbox. If it doesn't work... oh well.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

… Just curious if anyone else has tried doing this... I think).

Yes, I have listened to competitive brewers present for AHA cover this. Prime example is packaging an American light lager using an American lager by bottling an appropriate portion of carbonated water with the beer diluting the AVB. I’m too lazy to do the math, so I actually brewed both a light and standard aforementioned lager.

 

[Broothru]

Yes, I have listened to competitive brewers present for AHA cover this. Prime example is packaging an American light lager using an American lager by bottling an appropriate portion of carbonated water with the beer diluting the AVB. I’m too lazy to do the math, so I actually brewed both a light and standard aforementioned lager.

Carbonated water would work very well: already aseptically packaged, possibly devoid of O2. Simply drain a bit out, install a carb cap, pressurize and transfer from one closed system to another. The only possible downside might be acidification from carbonic acid that could alter the pH of the beer. Probably not a significant issue since carbonic acid is already in carbonated beer, and is a weak acid anyway.

I think I remember something from the distant past that either Coors or Miller Lite were brewed that way, since it was much easier to hit consistent product numbers by brewing a higher ABV beer and then adjusting downward to meet the desired ABV. I'm sure there's more fine tuning involved, but that's the gist of it. I used to think that was just urban legend, but it actually makes a lot of sense.

 

[Brewsmith]

I think I remember something from the distant past that either Coors or Miller Lite were brewed that way, since it was much easier to hit consistent product numbers by brewing a higher ABV beer and then adjusting downward to meet the desired ABV. I'm sure there's more fine tuning involved, but that's the gist of it. I used to think that was just urban legend, but it actually makes a lot of sense.

I’m pretty sure that’s the way Anheuser Busch does it. It’s also a good way to dilute defects or at least unwanted off flavors. If you can get diacetyl down to a good level with a strong beer, diluting will drop it significantly.

 

[KiwiBruce]

One issue with this is that you’ll be adding a lot of dissolved oxygen to your finished beer. I wouldn’t do it without a way to mitigate that. Boiling the water is good, but unless you chill it in an environment without oxygen it’ll come right back

Pre-boil the water, this will de-oxygenate it.

 

[KiwiBruce]

I know adding additional sterile water prior to fermenting a sweet wort to lower OG is a 'thing', but how about after fermentation has reached FG? I've been experimenting for the first time with my established processes and procedures on my "dialed-in" equipment profiles to create half batch volumes and have been experiencing higher efficiencies to the point where my OGs are slightly higher than designed, causing my FGs and ABVs to be (technically) out-of-style. I've used the Scaling tool in BeerSmith to proportion my smaller recipes, but the OGs and efficiencies have been higher than desired. I can adjust future batches accordingly, but I currently have two pilot batches that ended up being 2~3 points above planned going into the fermenter, and are now 0.2% to 0.5% above the range specified in BJCP guidelines. Blame it on superior brewing skills and yeast propagation, I guess .

Anyway, since these are just pilot batches, I thought I might give it a try. My latest Kolsch was at 5.2% and 1.009/2.3P this morning, still showing slight signs of bubbling in the spunding valve. A fast ferment test predicted right at this gravity, but my test batch for this particular yeast a few weeks ago hit FG of 1.007, which would result in 0.2% ABV above range for Kolsch style. Normally I would be happy with a slightly higher than predicted OG, and wouldn't fret an ABV that was slightly out of range. But both the OG and (it appears) the FG/ABV were/will be higher than I'd planned. My target numbers were squarely in the mid-range, but my actual numbers will be out-of-range on the high side.

So, I'm proposing to try dilution to bring the FG/ABV down to the midrange desired values. My plan is to boil the calculated amount of distilled water, cool it and then refrigerate it to my cold crashed temperature, transfer under pressure into my purged/sanitized serving keg, and finally transfer the finished beer from the fermenter into the keg under pressure. That will hopefully eliminate or at least mitigate the introduction of unwanted micro organisms while also adequately blending and diluting the water and beer.

Are there any pitfalls or factors I'm missing? Will 'sterile' water mix with fermented beer without stratifying? As I said, I haven't been able to find older threads or articles that mentioned finished beer being diluted with water. Just finished beers being blended together. Using a 'test' beer reduces any downside risks, but what, if any, are the potential downside risks as the beer ages and conditions?

(note: I'm not really OCD, anal-retentive, or obsessed with perfection. Well, maybe... Just curious if anyone else has tried doing this... I think).

Coors brewing were/are doing this. It's done to "up" production without the expense of new equipment. The problem is to manage a brew that your going to cut back to the desired ABV your going to need a higher OG and this inhibits the brews ability to absorb the hop oils. So extra hops have to be added (I believe it's an extra 10 to 12% depending of the OG) Remember to boil then cool the water you'll use, to De-oxygenate it. You can easily do this and double your output in the same amount of time and effort.

 

[jdauria]

I have never diluted a full keg of finished beer, but have diluted in bottles to weaken a Helles to enter it in comps as a International Pale, American Lager and American Light Lager. So don't see why it could not be done for a finished beer, though it will definitely through off your BU:GU ratio, so you may want to add some hops to the water when you boil tthe water.

 

[Miraculix]

I've did that before with bitters because of insufficient fermenter space and Germans do this often to their Hefeweizens. Higher OG results in more esters, even when watered down.

 

[Snuffy]

I know this is impractical and perhaps wrong - but I will admit it. Sometimes, I will just toss an ice cube or two in a freshly poured glass. I am not messing with the batch, just the glass of fresh beer. It works and lowers ABV I suspect.

Only if you then pour it into two glasses and drink only one of them. It may lower a measurable abv because v increased, but if you drink it all you'd get the same volume of alcohol along with the extra water.

 

[Willy]

Only if you then pour it into two glasses and drink only one of them. It may lower a measurable abv because v increased, but if you drink it all you'd get the same volume of alcohol along with the extra water.

I usually enjoy my beer outside. It's really hot here and enough evaporates to offset the ice cube. Besides, it takes longer to drink with that extra ice cube, so my alcohol update is reduced by the time it takes for that last sip or two. Haha.

 

[BrewerofBeers]

You can add lots of water to a finished beer. I do it all the time when I'm bottling to top off the last bottle. I almost always end up with a 1/2 diluted bottle. It turns out surprisingly good, making me wonder why I made a beer twice as strong. Proves a 3% beer can be delicious.

I don't think the dissolved oxygen is a problem if you're bottle-conditioning because the yeast use it.

 

[MaxStout]

Over in the What are you drinking now? thread @Beermeister32 has been mixing high-ABV beers with Bud Zero, 1:1. Never tried it myself, but sounds like one more way to tame a potent brew.

 

[AlexKay]

Several people have pointed out that high-gravity brewing -- planning to brew strong and then dilute -- is definitely a thing in professional circles. I also agree that the major concern is introducing oxygen.

After you've done everything you can to remove oxygen from your dilution water, you can take out some cheap insurance by keg (or bottle) conditioning your beer. Introduce some priming sugar, and the yeast will wake up. Not only will they take up some of the oxygen that's there, but to the extent that you've already made oxidation products, some of those get broken down by enzymes produced by metabolically active yeast.

 

[MaxStout]

A little ascorbic at bottling may help, too. Around 10-20ppm.

 

[BrewZer]

Coors brewing were/are doing this. It's done to "up" production without the expense of new equipment. The problem is to manage a brew that your going to cut back to the desired ABV your going to need a higher OG and this inhibits the brews ability to absorb the hop oils. So extra hops have to be added (I believe it's an extra 10 to 12% depending of the OG) Remember to boil then cool the water you'll use, to De-oxygenate it. You can easily do this and double your output in the same amount of time and effort.

They put hops in Coors?

 

[Ninoid]

This topic is interesting to me, I have already made about twenty batches of beer by brewing twice as strong wort which I would then dilute before pitching the yeast and that works very well. I have not tried diluting after fermentation because I am afraid of oxygen since I do not have a closed bottling system, but I carbonate naturally in the bottle so that I get rid of oxygen (at least most of it).
I am bottling in a few days so I will fill the last two bottles halfway with water directly from the tap and the rest with beer and see how it turns out. If that is not bad then using boiled and naturally cooled water should be even better.

 

[Miraculix]

This topic is interesting to me, I have already made about twenty batches of beer by brewing twice as strong wort which I would then dilute before pitching the yeast and that works very well. I have not tried diluting after fermentation because I am afraid of oxygen since I do not have a closed bottling system, but I carbonate naturally in the bottle so that I get rid of oxygen (at least most of it).
I am bottling in a few days so I will fill the last two bottles halfway with water directly from the tap and the rest with beer and see how it turns out. If that is not bad then using boiled and naturally cooled water should be even better.

I wouldn't be afraid of oxygen in this case either. The yeast will scavenge it in 30 to 60 minutes, once it has access to the priming sugar.

 

[Ninoid]

I wouldn't be afraid of oxygen in this case either. The yeast will scavenge it in 30 to 60 minutes, once it has access to the priming sugar.

I'm hoping for the same thing. I would fill the bottles halfway with water, and then fill them almost to the top with beer normally with a filler.