Any experience with chlorine effects?

[Puddlethumper]

I have had a hard run of several lost batches due to, what I suspect to be, chlorine in my water supply. I'd like to know what other people have experienced with this issue and, if possible, what is actually known about the issue.

My questions on this topic are:

1. If you know you've had a chlorine caused flavor issue, what did it taste/smell like?

2. Is it typical for a chlorine issue to not become apparant until a few weeks after brewing? (I never noticed a problem until about bottling time.)

3. How did you deal with the chlorine issue? (Camden tablets, filter, change water source, etc. ?)

Any and all feedback on this topic will be welcome and appreciated.

 

[IPA-Hole]

Well, I guess I'm a bit confused. It's my understanding that boiling gets rid of all chlorine. I brew all the time with tap (depending on the style of brew), sometimes I brew with bottled water and adjust profile with salts. Have you ever tried brewing with bottled water or distilled? Just wondering.... Good luck!

 

[runningweird]

you might have something called chloramine - a much more stable water treatment chemical than chlorine. It does not evaporate out like chlorine will. it doesn't even boil out. it is used by treatment companies for those reasons, it is the bane of many brewers.

I don't taste my beer during fermentation, I think of it as too much risk of introducing infection, I rarely taste at kegging either since I think green beer tastes like swass. the taste was always present when i first tasted the beer after kegging - it NEVER went away.

I had to toss 20- 30 gallons of beer, thinking I had an infection. I had a constant medicinal,plastic taste. no hop presence, cloudy, tasted like rocket fuel.

solution: treat any water that touches your brewing with something called campden tablets. one crushed and dissolved tablet will treat 20 gallons of water and remove the issue.

I would crush a tablet or two in a mortar and pestle, sprinkle a quarter in a 5 gallon bucket, and so on. do not let untreated water touch your grain - I think that is where the bad flavors come from.

 

[Puddlethumper]

Well, I guess I'm a bit confused. It's my understanding that boiling gets rid of all chlorine. I brew all the time with tap (depending on the style of brew), sometimes I brew with bottled water and adjust profile with salts. Have you ever tried brewing with bottled water or distilled? Just wondering.... Good luck!

Like runningweird said, the issue, I think, has been chloramine. A chlorinating compound used by some municipalities to chlorinate water and it does not boil out. It took me a while to figure out that this is the problem in my case. I've chosen to switch water supplies to avoid the chlorine in the first place, but there are other options, but distilled water doesn't have the minerals and stuff the yeast needs.

 

[Puddlethumper]

I had to toss 20- 30 gallons of beer, thinking I had an infection. I had a constant medicinal,plastic taste. no hop presence, cloudy, tasted like rocket fuel.
.

How long after brewing did you first notice that you had a problem with those batches?

 

[runningweird]

How long after brewing did you first notice that you had a problem with those batches?

I usually wait a week to 10 days to try a beer after I have kegged it. so I noticed the flaw right away at tasting. I deluded myself into thinking that they would fade with conditioning. nope. dumpers all of them.

I did drink a few of the kegs, but couldn't stomach them anymore after that. awful.

 

[noblebrew]

I had a chloramine problem. I tasted it as a harsh biting on the back of my tongue. I switched to filtered water, and my beer was awesome after that.

 

[Yooper]

I have had a hard run of several lost batches due to, what I suspect to be, chlorine in my water supply. I'd like to know what other people have experienced with this issue and, if possible, what is actually known about the issue.

My questions on this topic are:

1. If you know you've had a chlorine caused flavor issue, what did it taste/smell like?

2. Is it typical for a chlorine issue to not become apparant until a few weeks after brewing? (I never noticed a problem until about bottling time.)

3. How did you deal with the chlorine issue? (Camden tablets, filter, change water source, etc. ?)

Any and all feedback on this topic will be welcome and appreciated.

1. Definitely "plastic" flavor and smell. It's called "chlorophenols" and is a combination of the fermentation and the chlorine in the water. It's been described as wet bandaids, or a "chloroseptic" flavor. If you've ever used Chloroseptic throat spray, that smell is what it is like. But it also sort of reminds me of licking or smelling burning pvc pipe. (Don't ask about how I know what burning pvc pipe tastes or smells like- that's for another day! )

2. Yes. It may be still there at bottling, but as the flavors meld and mellow, it becomes more noticeable sometimes.

3. Boiling gets rid of chlorine but not chloramines which are very commonly used by municipal water suppliers. The easiest fix is adding one crushed campden tablet to 20 gallons of water and stirring. That chemical reaction gets rid of all of the chlorine/chloramine in the water. I have an RO water system now, but we have very little chlorine in our water and no chloramines.



One thing to consider is that phenols can also come from infection. I had that happen from a contaminated yeast starter, and it was "plastic beer" that I ended up throwing out. Since you didn't taste it at all at bottling, but it's present now, that could be a consideration as well. That would be a bacterial contamination.

 

[Puddlethumper]

1. Definitely "plastic" flavor and smell. It's called "chlorophenols" and is a combination of the fermentation and the chlorine in the water. .

OK, that makes sense. If the fermentation process actually causes the off-flavor to develop it would never be apparant on brewing day.

(Don't ask about how I know what burning pvc pipe tastes or smells like- that's for another day! ).

LOL - good description!

One thing to consider is that phenols can also come from infection.

Yes, that was what I originally thought the problem was. In fact, being a noob to brewing I took a sample for the lhbs operator to taste, hoping I'd get some answers there. He pronounced it was certainly a bug. So I ran three more batches with absolute arse-puckering attention to cleaning and sanitation. Bought a couple new glass carboys, new tubing, the whole shebang. In retrospect I'm thinking it was that single-minded focus on an infection that kept me from realizing the real problem. Had it been a bug it wouldn't have persisted after all the cleaning, sanitizing and new equipment.

 

[Puddlethumper]

I guess the follow-up question to all this is, at what level does the presence of chlorine become an issue for brewers? Some posts I have read claim that even having chlorine in the wash/rinse water used to clean your equipment can lead to off-flavors in the beer. Do you think that is true?

It would seem to me that thorough rinising would remove enough that the trace amounts remaining wouldn't be enough to create an issue. But then I've been off base a time or two already on this matter.

 

[-MG-]

I wouldn't worry about using that water for cleaning.

Chorine is very reactive with organics. It will easily form chlorophenols (and others like chloroform) These compounds can be flavour active in beer at the ppb level. Think medicinal, TCP, hospital, band-aid, plastic smell. It will react with various husk phenolic components pretty instantaneously to form some of these pretty powerfully flavoured chemicals.

Another thing to note, while people are correct regarding boiling getting rid of Chlorine. There is still a reaction going on with water during the mash (maybe one of the most important phases of brewing), and that chlorine is reacting with your grain (if you're all grain). There are off flavors that could arise there.

Your statement about it not showing up til later (during bottling), however, really throws a red flag to me. The issues we are speaking of here, Chlorine, etc, would be apparent right away.

I've found for some reason with my beers that when I chill them and then sample I notice off flavors more easily.

 

[Yooper]

I guess the follow-up question to all this is, at what level does the presence of chlorine become an issue for brewers? Some posts I have read claim that even having chlorine in the wash/rinse water used to clean your equipment can lead to off-flavors in the beer. Do you think that is true?

It would seem to me that thorough rinising would remove enough that the trace amounts remaining wouldn't be enough to create an issue. But then I've been off base a time or two already on this matter.

I think the flavor threshold for chlorophenols is very low, but I'm not sure what the minimum would be.

If you rinse very very very well with chlorine-free water, then I don't think using a chlorine based cleaner would be a huge issue. However, there are so many other non-chlorine based products on the market that I can't see needed to use bleach or the like. Oxyclean works wonders (the unscented kind) for cleaning equipment without chlorine, as does PBW (a commercial brewer's wash).

However, if you're cleaning and then rinsing with water with chlorine in it, then that is probably enough to make a flavor impact depending on the level of chlorine in the water.

 

[Puddlethumper]

I wouldn't worry about using that water for cleaning.

Chorine is very reactive with organics. It will easily form chlorophenols (and others like chloroform) These compounds can be flavour active in beer at the ppb level. .

Since posting this thread I have done a little more research and your comments above tie right in with what I just learned. I just got off the phone with a water engineer at our municpal water department. He told me that they had gotten an influx (heavy loading) of organic compounds in some of their water beginning just before the first of the year. He said these organics in the water can lead to the formation of chloramines in the water. This time frame coincides exactly with the onset of my flavor problems.

Your statement about it not showing up til later (during bottling), however, really throws a red flag to me. The issues we are speaking of here, Chlorine, etc, would be apparent right away..

I was given to understand that there is a reaction during the fermentation process with the chlorine that leads to the off flavors.

I've found for some reason with my beers that when I chill them and then sample I notice off flavors more easily.

Yes, the beer tastes much worse when chilled.

 

[Puddlethumper]

However, if you're cleaning and then rinsing with water with chlorine in it, then that is probably enough to make a flavor impact depending on the level of chlorine in the water.

I am cleaning with PBW and then after a thorough rise, sanitizing with StarSan. I then allow the vessel to air dry. The only chlorine is that which may be in the water supplied by the city through my hose. That water is what I use to mix the PBW, the rinse water, and the water I use to mix the StarSan.

I cannot see how the trace amounts of chlorine deposited on those surfaces as they dry would be enough to lead to flavor issues. But I'm just asking in case it has been an issue someone else has run into.

 

[Puddlethumper]

I wouldn't worry about using that water for cleaning.

.

Oops. Looks like I missed this part of your reply. Thanks.

 

[croakerj]

I had this happen the one and only time I decided to use hose water with no conditioning. I could taste through every phase. I dump a few bottles whenever it is convenient. It is the kind of smell that gives me a headache thinking about it. Spring water is easiest.
The beer is pretty to look at though. A beautiful Irish red. Just don't smell or taste.

 

[cjb]

The only chlorine is that which may be in the water supplied by the city through my hose. .

Just something that caught my eye - are you using a hose for your brewing water as well, or just for cleaning?

 

[croakerj]

Hose could be an issue too I guess

 

[Puddlethumper]

Just something that caught my eye - are you using a hose for your brewing water as well, or just for cleaning?

Since starting this thread I have changed a number of procedures. I have been hauling water from the well at my other property and using it to make the beer. Boiled well water is used to make the yeast slurry. At bottling I use boiled charcoal filtered tap water to dissolve priming sugar. The problem is now completely solved. The last three batches coming out of carbonation have been excellent.

But to answer your question regarding cleaning:

I only use the municipal water from my hose to supply water to the wort chiller. I do drain the warm water from the wort chiller into a bucket and mix it with StarSan and another mixed with PBW for cleaning up after brewing. Neither of these seem to be adding any bad things to my beer.