Another starter question

[Double_D]

I've been seeing a bunch of people that say you need to make a .5 gal-1 gal starter 5-7 days before brewing. Then put it in the fridge to cold crash and finally decant off the weak starter beer and pitching the now larger but mostly dormant colony into their wort. What's the advantage to this versus just making making a smaller starter volume wise and pitching an active starter? My typical lag time is less than 8 hours with the latter method. For the sake of argument I use 250g DME in a quart of water, aerated very well, and then pitch two smack packs, let ferment over night, and then pitch the whole thing into a ten gallon batch.

 

[AmandaK]

Some people don't like pitching "inferior" starter wort into their wort.

I vary my technique.

 

[stratslinger]

Unless that 10 gallon batch is pretty low gravity, a 1q starter and 2 smack packs is still going to be underpitching by quite a bit. Check out MrMalty.com or Yeastcalc.com - they're both very useful tools for calculating proper pitching rates, and figuring out starter sizes to get there.

I do agree with you on the timing issue though; there should be no need to make a starter 5-7 days ahead of time, unless you plan to step your starter up a couple times. If it's going to be a single step starter, you can make it 24 hours in advance and pitch it at high krausen, like you described, or make it 36-48 hours in advance, then cold crash it overnight before you pitch and decant. You may lull the yeast into semi-dormancy, but you have far more yeast, which is the whole point of the starter. The starter's purpose is to propagate more yeast, not just to get them active.

 

[Double_D]

My christmas beer is on the left in this picture. Same starter as always, OG 1.100, FG 1.020. There weren't any off flavors that myself or the people at the LHBS could tell. Predictably it needed to age so it could mellow out. But I guess beyond just having faith, how can you tell if something is underpitched other than saying "this guy" or "that calculator" says it didn't have enough yeast in it? Since weight and volume increase exponentially I can understand how underpitching is an issue in a 15bbl fermenter but at our volumes we're talking about the difference of a half ounce of dense slurry. What else indicates it being underpitched?

 

[duboman]

The whole concept of pitching yeast is about pitching the correct quality of HEALTHY yeast so they can work at optimum efficiency to properly ferment your wort into beer.

While under pitching will still ferment your beer the yeast undergo more stress and therefore can generate more off flavors that then require more time to eliminate. The same can be said about drastically over pitching yeast.

Some of these differences may be subtle and in some cases unnoticeable but that doesn't mean it is a practice that shouldn't be followed, especially if you are one to harvest yeast to re-use.

 

[Double_D]

I know the concept is to pitch the correct quantity HEALTHY yeast. So unhealthy yeast do or don't work efficiently? Wouldn't you expect underpitched and overstressed yeast not to reach a good terminal gravity? Or is it because I don't save the yeast from beers like this I don't see the eventual degradation of quality results from fermentation? I guess we're back to how do you know unless you tell yourself "this guy told me so?" But then, if you're buying the smack packs or vials the yeast company would have to have some built in obsolescence wouldn't they? Gotta keep 'em coming back. My whole theory has been built off them being benevolent benefactors who produce this amazing product for us. Then, they aren't actually selling us enough yeast to begin with and we end up with yeast that doesn't do well after the 2nd or 3rd generation, which is what I've already experienced in the yeast I save for my bitter. And it was technically underpitched from the beginning... Wow. That turned into a conspiracy theory. But it makes sense.

 

[Sulli]

Just curious here Double D...why do you make the gravity of your starters so high?

 

[duboman]

I know the concept is to pitch the correct quantity HEALTHY yeast. So unhealthy yeast do or don't work efficiently? Wouldn't you expect underpitched and overstressed yeast not to reach a good terminal gravity? Or is it because I don't save the yeast from beers like this I don't see the eventual degradation of quality results from fermentation? I guess we're back to how do you know unless you tell yourself "this guy told me so?" But then, if you're buying the smack packs or vials the yeast company would have to have some built in obsolescence wouldn't they? Gotta keep 'em coming back. My whole theory has been built off them being benevolent benefactors who produce this amazing product for us. Then, they aren't actually selling us enough yeast to begin with and we end up with yeast that doesn't do well after the 2nd or 3rd generation, which is what I've already experienced in the yeast I save for my bitter. And it was technically underpitched from the beginning... Wow. That turned into a conspiracy theory. But it makes sense.

Since I'm not Bill Nye the science guy I will direct you to the book "Yeast" by Jamil and Chris White. They answer all your questions and then some and delve deep into the science of yeast and how it pertains to beer. I have found it to be an exceptional read and reference it often but have no desire to regurgitate here

Brewing great beer is all about following proven practices and repeating them consistently. Not doing this does not mean you won't produce beer or even good beer but the beer may not be its best and your results may not be consistent.

My goal is to produce great beer consistently from batch to batch and be repeatable so I elect to follow proven practices by people far more knowledgeable than me that have been producing award winning beer on a consistent basis over time and from the feedback I receive it seems that I'm getting there-cheers!

 

[Double_D]

Just curious here Double D...why do you make the gravity of your starters so high?

Sounded like a good number years ago before I found this site and there was a homebrew store worth a crap in town. Never had any problems. And I'm usually doing beers in the 7% and up range anyway. For my bitter or berliner I 'll usually just do 125g in a quart but. I never looked in to it until now I guess.

 

[Double_D]

Since I'm not Bill Nye the science guy I will direct you to the book "Yeast" by Jamil and Chris White. They answer all your questions and then some and delve deep into the science of yeast and how it pertains to beer. I have found it to be an exceptional read and reference it often but have no desire to regurgitate here

Brewing great beer is all about following proven practices and repeating them consistently. Not doing this does not mean you won't produce beer or even good beer but the beer may not be its best and your results may not be consistent.

My goal is to produce great beer consistently from batch to batch and be repeatable so I elect to follow proven practices by people far more knowledgeable than me that have been producing award winning beer on a consistent basis over time and from the feedback I receive it seems that I'm getting there-cheers!

I agree! But out of curiosity, have you done a conversion test at 15 min into your mash? Sometimes you have to question the status quo. As for feedback, it seems like I'm getting there too.

 

[duboman]

I agree! But out of curiosity, have you done a conversion test at 15 min into your mash? Sometimes you have to question the status quo. As for feedback, it seems like I'm getting there too.

I do and it really depends on the grist make up. In fact in some recipes I don't even mash some of the specialty grains, I just put them in at sparge for color. Every recipe requires different attention but that being said I always mash for 60 minutes, I can get a lot of other stuff done then

 

[Double_D]

I've used this excuse with my buddies, "Hey man, let's let this sit and go get lunch while it's doing it's thing"