Anchor Brewing

[mscroggi]

Um, capitalism.

I dont know why the term 'illegal' keeps getting ignored.

 

[GoeHaarden]

I dont know why the term 'illegal' keeps getting ignored.

Again. I don't know why you think InBev is the only company doing it. Justify it how you like, but just hold yourself accountable for supporting other companies who have illegal business practices!?

Yeehaw! Ride that high horse!

C'mon bro. Keep using the imperfect law to support your argument.

While you're crying about InBev breaking stupid commerce laws, this kind of stuff remains allowed in your "perfect" legal system. Please watch the whole thing...

 

[mongoose33]

I dont know why the term 'illegal' keeps getting ignored.

Because those "ignoring" it are focused on whether the beer produced is something they wish to purchase. And that, in a nushell, is what free market economics is about. If Inbev or others strangle the market so that quality beer is no longer easily available, new brewers will come on the scene to provide what people want.

Yeah, it isn't always "fair." But if you're waiting for "fair," well, I think you're going to have a long wait.

 

[madscientist451]

t
i guess what im saying is that you have to look at intent to know if its really "selling out" when it happens. but its often impossible to know someone's motivation. you either have to judge them on how they got to the transaction, or how they acted after the transaction. there's a brewery in LA founded specifically to become buyout target. that offends me. then there's guys like Lagunitas that just put in the decades of work and now get the recognition and capital to go to the next level. that doesnt offend me at all.

but if the beer goes to poopy, then its time to reevaluate.

So its OK to "judge" a person's or corporation's business activities by how YOU PERCEIVE how they "acted" and their "intent"?
Do you want all YOUR personal business transactions judged in the same manner?
Ever buy a gas guzzling car or power boat? Take unnecessarily and expensive vacation trips? Pay too much for a large expensive house and then "unfairly" jack up the price when you sold it a few years later?
If a developer buys a tract of wooded land, chops down all the trees, builds expensive homes, adds to the tax base, provides jobs, SOMEONE will still "judge" that the ends don't justify the means because they are in some way "offended". And a house flipper is worse than a developer because he/she only "intends" to make some money?
Maytag "sold out" and made a lot of money because he wanted to retire. The investment group "sold out" for whatever reasons they have, most likely Anchor wasn't generating the profits they desired and they wanted to invest the capital in something else.
When you see beer in a retail store the ONLY REASON its there is because someone wants to make a profit off your habit of consuming alcohol. Horrible as that concept is, there's nothing you can do about it, except to homebrew more and then buy less of that nasty capitalist beer.

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

InBev only got into the craft beer biz because their older heavy handed practices were not working at the local level. Same heavy handed practices are now being used via their craft beer ownership. In particular, many bars are effectively (and illegally) tied to InBev in that it's the only beer on tap. They have been successfully sued by the government numerous times over the last decade because of these practices.

 

[lump42]

Oh, I always love these threads!!!

I don't think many people sit around and think "I'm going to start a brewery to stick it to InBev who has aggressive business tactics with unlimited resources!" I think most craft breweries are started by...guess what...homebrewers with aspirations bigger than reality! That being said, you can't tell me that every craft beer you've consumed has been good. I highly doubt it, and I don't like to spend money on beer that is no good simply because it's not owned by InBev. I'd rather by a Wicked Weed, which thanks to InBev is now distributed to my area...

The brewers in my area didn't start a brewery to solely stick it to BMC, they see it as a added benefit to becoming craftsman and becoming their own boss. Most of the breweries around here are also active in community improvement projects. They see their good fortune as an opportunity to help make others lives better. They aren't brewing to be rich. Not everyone a cares about monetary wealth.

Is everyone telling me that if InBev offered you say $3 million for your brewery with continued employment opportunity as head brewer you wouldn't take it? Get real. I'd drop the mic so fast...

That's exactly what I'm saying. If some one offered a small fortune to cross against my personal ethics, I'd turn them down.

Please tell me you don't own any apple products, drink starbucks, or consume any other product from a big business who tries to skate the laws!? I'm sure their is some hypocrisy in your own life...

***************
What about all the Americans who support their families with income from employment at an AB company? Go tell them you wish they got laid off or lost their job...

I actually don't buy apple products, never have. There Henry Ford product development has always rubbed me the wrong way. Starbucks is burnt oil. As much as possible, coffee is from a local roaster, fruits and vegetables from local farmers and local grocer. Of course, we all purchase from large national/ international companies, it does come with a global economy, but we can choose to support companies condone business in a manner that groves with your personal values.

I don't believe anyone has said that they wish ABI to shutter their doors. I'd just like the unfair, aggressive business tactics to cease.

 

[GoeHaarden]

The brewers in my area didn't start a brewery to solely stick it to BMC, they see it as a added benefit to becoming craftsman and becoming their own boss. Most of the breweries around here are also active in community improvement projects. They see their good fortune as an opportunity to help make others lives better. They aren't brewing to be rich. Not everyone a cares about monetary wealth.

Well, I applaud those who decide to open a brewery to become they're own boss but at the same time most of them become a slave to their business. I've talked to several local brewers who have started to resent the craft because they work 100+ hrs/weeks. I'd rather not turn my hobby into work...

I think every anti-AB bus rider forgets about all the philanthropy that AB leads or is involved in. AB has kept a lot of luxuries free in St. Louis alone, and what about all the water that they ship during catastrophes!? Can you tell me they aren't involved in the community? That argument is invalidated by facts...

That's exactly what I'm saying. If some one offered a small fortune to cross against my personal ethics, I'd turn them down.

It's hard to say unless you've been presented with that option.

I don't believe anyone has said that they wish ABI to shutter their doors. I'd just like the unfair, aggressive business tactics to cease.

Business is not fair, and I will go ahead and say it: "some craft breweries make sh*tty beer and close d/t their own inadequacies." Blaming it on AB's market domination is a cop-out when others become successful in the same market. Again, life isn't fair and to think it owes you anything is quite the entitled mentality. Same goes for business...

Have we thought about maybe the tremendous craft brewery growth is sufficating itself too?

 

[GoeHaarden]

I actually don't buy apple products, never have. There Henry Ford product development has always rubbed me the wrong way. Starbucks is burnt oil. As much as possible, coffee is from a local roaster, fruits and vegetables from local farmers and local grocer. Of course, we all purchase from large national/ international companies, it does come with a global economy, but we can choose to support companies condone business in a manner that groves with your personal values.

I'm glad you said this. My personal values are a little more humanitarian centered and the business tactics of an alcohol production company bears no weight in the face of issues we are plagued with in this world. Surely we can focus our passions towards something that actually benefits our wellbeing!? A dwindling alcohol selection is hardly something to get bent about...

 

[lump42]

Well, I applaud those who decide to open a brewery to become they're own boss but at the same time most of them become a slave to their business. I've talked to several local brewers who have started to resent the craft because they work 100+ hrs/weeks. I'd rather not turn my hobby into work...

I think every anti-AB bus rider forgets about all the philanthropy that AB leads or is involved in. AB has kept a lot of luxuries free in St. Louis alone, and what about all the water that they ship during catastrophes!? Can you tell me they aren't involved in the community? That argument is invalidated by facts...

Business and entrepreneurship isn't for every one. They may work ridiculous hours most dedicated business people are. They either enjoy the work or the pay, but if they don't then it is up to them to change their circumstances (leave the business or change the business). I agree I don't want to ruin any more hobbies by turning them into a career. It's the same reason I didn't start a farm, and why I won't be starting a brewery.

I applaud ABI for their philanthropy, but their gifts don't negate their underhand practices. Nor Hitler really helped improved the livelihood of a lot of German's didn't really excuse his other actions.

It's hard to say unless you've been presented with that option.

I've left jobs and turned down offers that paid 2-3x my salary, because I disagreed with their business culture and ethics. I've had the option to make more money. It wasn't worth selling my soul and all my time to the company.

Business is not fair, and I will go ahead and say it: "some craft breweries make sh*tty beer and close d/t their own inadequacies." Blaming it on AB's market domination is a cop-out when others become successful in the same market. Again, life isn't fair and to think it owes you anything is quite the entitled mentality. Same goes for business...

Have we thought about maybe the tremendous craft brewery growth is sufficating itself too?

No one is blaming ABI for independent breweries from closing down due to their own production issues, poor business decisions, or bad marketing. Life isn't fair but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive to make it so. Is it entitled to think we should help out our neighbors and provide a playing field that allows a chance?

Independent brewer sector isn't suffocating, it's maturing. There has been a contraction (market correction), but no economist is going to tell them that double digit growth can last forever.

I'm glad you said this. My personal values are a little more humanitarian centered and the business tactics of an alcohol production company bears no weight in the face of issues we are plagued with in this world. Surely we can focus our passions towards something that actually benefits our wellbeing!? A dwindling alcohol selection is hardly something to get bent about...

I think the issue doesn't stop with ABI, but spreads out to many international corporations that have done everything they can to squash any and all competition. Since there are a few of them with much power and so many more consumers with individually little power, it will require a large force spread out on many fronts to keep them in check. ABI is just one of many companies that needs to be checked for unfair practices.

 

[GoeHaarden]

I applaud ABI for their philanthropy, but their gifts don't negate their underhand practices. Nor Hitler really helped improved the livelihood of a lot of German's didn't really excuse his other actions.

I think your reality might be a little skewed if you're truely making this comparison. To do so is quite ridiculous! That's apples-to-zebras my friend....

I've left jobs and turned down offers that paid 2-3x my salary, because I disagreed with their business culture and ethics. I've had the option to make more money. It wasn't worth selling my soul and all my time to the company.

Ever been offered instant retirement and financial wellbeing? Pride is a deceiving emotion. I too have left jobs paying more, quit a career, stop making money to go back to school for the pursuit of a new one that pays less. But I would retire in a heartbeat if someone offered $3 mil for my brewery...its not like they are going to use it to do harm!!

ABI is just one of many companies that needs to be checked for unfair practices.

They are constantly being checked by the numerous laws and regulations in place. They pay their fines. The law is not black and white, its grey. A lot is up for interpretation especially in the civil sector. Not to mention a law can become changed by precedent ruled on by one individual, the judge! Who may or may not have an incentive to do so...


***********

BTW, thanks for the civil debate...we're both fighting a losing battle. Lol

 

[SanPancho]

So its OK to "judge" a person's or corporation's business activities by how YOU PERCEIVE how they "acted" and their "intent"?
Do you want all YOUR personal business transactions judged in the same manner?

Wow. You seem really upset about this conversation.

I quoted your post not to attack you, but because you referred to Anchor which is in my backyard, and of which i have second hand knowledge of the equity bro transaction that i wanted to reference and comment on- that “sell out” is generally a derogatory term, but pointless when used against someone who is literally intending to sell out, like the equity guys.

I have no problem with people judging and having their own opinions. Ive been called a greedy landlord, greedy developer, irresponsible business owner, gentrifier, etc. Free speech baby. Love it or leave it. When you combine free speech and capitalism this what you get.

Let me try to reiterate and go a bit further. The idea of selling out is like pornography- its a “know it when you see it” thing. And thats an individual opinion. You have yours- i have mine, that other dude has his.

I don’t understand why you jump into challenging the idea that folks can try and evaluate why a company did what they did before they they decide to call it selling out? Is it bad to think about something before you make a decision? That seems pretty dumb.

Maytag put in millions and decades before calling it quits. Can you call him a sell out? Sure. But its definitely debatable, given the long history, especially his age. Dude was at retirement age. I dont see that as selling out.

Lagunitas is similar in that they’ve been around for ages. But they still run their own show, so i fail to see how thats selling out. Its taking in a big investor. Big difference.

The LA brewery designed and planned for buyout, thats a sell out to me. Even though technically the founder is still there and they still run their own show, ala Lagunitas.

And the equity bros who bought anchor? Purchased with the explicit intent to flip it. Its just silly to even bother calling it a sell out when that was their stated goal from the get go. Its like calling that goth kid a weirdo- obvious and exactly what he wants to be.

To be clear- when i say the LA deal offends me, its because it signaled that craft beer is officially a big business market for capital/wall street/global equity,etc. Id take the money in a heartbeat if it happened to me, but its still a bummer for what it says about this little area of the brewing world.

The point i intended to make above with different examples is that we should think about the context before just automatically calling it selling out, and same for those throwing up a boycott. Everyone has their own opinion and judgement, i simply say folks should try and learn a little before they judge.

I

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

http://www.master-minds.net/brewerylist/fake_beers.html

Thanks for the list. Great resource on what to avoid purchasing.

 

[lump42]

I think your reality might be a little skewed if you're truely making this comparison. To do so is quite ridiculous! That's apples-to-zebras my friend....

Everyone's reality is skewed by their own experiences and perspectives. I personally think apples-to-zebras is a valid comparison.

Ever been offered instant retirement and financial wellbeing? Pride is a deceiving emotion. I too have left jobs paying more, quit a career, stop making money to go back to school for the pursuit of a new one that pays less. But I would retire in a heartbeat if someone offered $3 mil for my brewery...its not like they are going to use it to do harm!!

You never mentioned instant retirement in prior statement, only continued employment. To watch the company that was hard fought for to be internally dismantled and control to be shipped off to Belgium. The head brewers at ABI crafty brewery locations surely get some freedoms, but like any large corporation it's only until they decide their freedom isn't lining the shareholders pockets enough. I have no desires to truly retire. If it isn't this career, it will be another even if it is humping 10-12hr daily as a volunteer. I get more self fullfillment from helping others than making money. It also depends on what you mean by harm. Are they going to convert the brewery to start making soylent green, no. But they could use the brewery in such a way that they essentially close the market to anyone else who wants to start.

They are constantly being checked by the numerous laws and regulations in place. They pay their fines. The law is not black and white, its grey. A lot is up for interpretation especially in the civil sector. Not to mention a law can become changed by precedent ruled on by one individual, the judge! Who may or may not have an incentive to do so...

Unfortunately with our current political environment (last several decades), those laws and regulations have often been heavily written or influences by the big players in the different industries. ABI is large enough to fund several lobbying groups in every state and federally. They pay their fines when they get caught, but how often have they been able to influence or strong arm local regulators. The judges, especially elected ones, are also going to be beholden to their campaign contributors, unless the public provides enough outcry to overshadow the money, which is what many are trying to rally the populous.


***********

BTW, thanks for the civil debate...we're both fighting a losing battle. Lol

Agreed, civil debates seem to be too far and few between. People tend to take debates as personal attacks and get ugly quick.

 

[GoeHaarden]

But they could use the brewery in such a way that they essentially close the market to anyone else who wants to start.

Not true entirely. Sure, they can crush a lot of the competition. Kind of the goal in for-profit business, but what about the ones who make it? Founders Brewing is one of my favorites, and it's technically no longer a craft brewery due to taking on some large investors. Should we boycott them too as their market share is growing beyond arbitrary craft brew rules!? Their growth no doubtably has an impact on the competition. I know your response is going to be about legal tactics, but honestly we don't know if they are breaking any commerce laws until they get caught.

I do about 10mph over the speed limit everywhere I go and have yet to get a ticket. Breaking the law yes, but to what extent!? Just a little is ok if we dont get caught right!?

Have you been out to Sierra Nevada's place in N.C.? It's quite spectacular...It is very pssible to be successful in the market. Sure, you have to work hard initially but with the right beer and business plan it totally do-able.

Unfortunately with our current political environment (last several decades), those laws and regulations have often been heavily written or influences by the big players in the different industries

Who is the real enemy here? The government! For all of you anti-InBev bandwagoners who don't vote some responsibilty falls in your own lap!!!

 

[lump42]

Not true entirely. Sure, they can crush a lot of the competition. Kind of the goal in for-profit business, but what about the ones who make it? Founders Brewing is one of my favorites, and it's technically no longer a craft brewery due to taking on some large investors. Should we boycott them too as their market share is growing beyond arbitrary craft brew rules!? Their growth no doubtably has an impact on the competition. I know your response is going to be about legal tactics, but honestly we don't know if they are breaking any commerce laws until they get caught.

I believe they're majority owned by a spanish brewing group that has no other presence in the US. So they are unlikely to be playing be unfair rules, and are small enough they are unlikely to push distributors around as if they were subsidiary businesses.

Who is the real enemy here? The government! For all of you anti-InBev bandwagoners who don't vote some responsibilty falls in your own lap!!!

Agreed. Unfortunately much of this started before I was born, let alone before I was voting age. Not only should the populous be aware of the bad business players and vote with their dollars, but also actually vote in a manner that benefits the people and not corporations. Nov 6 is right around the corner!

 

[mongoose33]

As I've followed this one consideration doesn't seem to be noted.

We have no idea what the initial motivations of craft brewers that drove them to get started in the business. Maybe it was love of beer. Maybe they wanted to show they could do it. Maybe their whole reason for being was to provide certain members of HBT with craft beer unsullied by association with the megabrewers. And maybe they were hoping to become successful enough to be bought out.

It's...well, presumptuous for any of us here to project our values and beliefs on such brewers, and expect them to have honored them.

They owe us nothing. We may not like the results of selling out, but it's not our lives and businesses that are up for discussion. Further, some of us may feel like such people selling out have turned their backs on the craft beer drinker....when we have no idea if that was in fact any part of the motivation to begin with.

You don't want to drink InBev beers, that's fine. I don't. But please--projecting one's values on others, as if they should have hold the same values, and then finding them wanting for not having held those values in high esteem, doesn't get us anywhere.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Sapporo started in 1876 and is Japans oldest brewery. They too were "craft" at one point. Anchor sold for $85 million at a time when their production was little more than 130 thousand barrels. For $85 million. Sapporo has the resources to grow the brand, not to mention the 142 years of experience on how to grow the brand.

 

[madscientist451]

I have no problem with people judging and having their own opinions.

Everyone has their own opinion and judgement, i simply say folks should try and learn a little before they judge.

Hallelujah!

The only thing I would add is perhaps judgement can be scaled back and business decisions can simply be accepted for what they are.

 

[GoeHaarden]

Dilly Dilly!

 

[mscroggi]

Did anyone see this? https://www.pastemagazine.com/artic...inbev-offices-raided-in-price-fixing-inv.html

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

Not wanting to come across an an anti-Capitalist (I'm not), it's simply, in my experiences, when a BIG company purchases/takes over anything the product suffers or has even died.

In my life I honestly don't recall any product being better once taken over. However, I do realize the goal for many is "start it, build it and get bought out for $$$$".

What does this have to do with beer? A prior post in this thread wrote Anchor Steam isn't as good as in the past. Unfortunately, in my area, these are difficult to find so I haven't had one in a while. There was a restaurant nearby with Anchor Steam on tap. For me = complete nirvana. Guess we'll just have to brew our own.

 

[SanPancho]

As an SF local, as well as someone who mistakenly took a bigass swig from someone elses pint just the other night, i can assure there is no change in quality. Anchor is just as disgusting now as it always used to be. But now you have a dozen varieties of nasty to choose from!

 

[mscroggi]

Not wanting to come across an an anti-Capitalist (I'm not), it's simply, in my experiences, when a BIG company purchases/takes over anything the product suffers or has even died.

In my life I honestly don't recall any product being better once taken over. However, I do realize the goal for many is "start it, build it and get bought out for $$$$".

There is selling to a larger group to survive, and there is selling to the singular devil that earlier very nearly used ILLEGAL tactics to force all competition out of business. The same devil that undeniably continues to use the same tactics today. Some of the hyper-cynical don't see a problem with it. I do. Its akin to buying a 'used' stereo that is known to having been stolen.. Some see it as a way to get an unbelievable deal.. Others see a chance to take a stance and do whatever they can to stop the thievery in the first place by not buying it.

 

[mscroggi]

As an SF local, as well as someone who mistakenly took a bigass swig from someone elses pint just the other night, i can assure there is no change in quality. Anchor is just as disgusting now as it always used to be. But now you have a dozen varieties of nasty to choose from!

I haven't had one in a long time.. but back in the day - when very few craft beers were available - Anchor Steam Liberty Ale was the bomb for me. I will have to seek one out and see how it compares to my memories... I suspect it will pale (no pun intended) in comparison to the current offerings.. But it will be interesting!....

 

[mongoose33]

I brew a Cal Common beer, and happen to have an Anchor Steam in my fridge. It isn't as good as I remember.

 

[passedpawn]

I like inbev products. They aren't the best beers (by a long shot), but given the right situation they are fine.

This is America, land of the american dream. Small business is at the heart of that, and it's the day of the craft beer. InBev, Saporo and similar pose no threat the zillion small breweries that have popped up all around me. My goodness, the chicken littles that run around looking at the sky. Believe me, craft beer is doing just fine. It might be leveling off (market is kinda saturated), but craft beer here to stay, like rock n roll.

 

[davidabcd]

Shock Top used to be better. Loved it when I first tried it. Blue Moon has either declined or just lost its luster for me.

Regarding the whole back and forth disagreement, it seems there are, more or less, two camps:

A) Some people naturally look out for others and maybe don't get why everyone else doesn't do that.

B) Some people tend to look out for themselves, basically, and wonder why everyone else doesn't do that.

***I have no opinion on whether any brewery seller or buyer mentioned here is right or wrong.

I guess the biggest difference between A and B is a matter of how much responsibility either is willing to accept for the results of their actions or decisions they make, who or what it affects and so on.

 

[SanPancho]

Yeah, liberty ale and porter were some of my first craft beers in high school. Good stuff back then, plus petes wicked ale, sierra nevada. Was never a big redhook fan tho.

 

[mongoose33]

I like inbev products. They aren't the best beers (by a long shot), but given the right situation they are fine.

This is America, land of the american dream. Small business is at the heart of that, and it's the day of the craft beer. InBev, Saporo and similar pose no threat the zillion small breweries that have popped up all around me. My goodness, the chicken littles that run around looking at the sky. Believe me, craft beer is doing just fine. It might be leveling off (market is kinda saturated), but craft beer here to stay, like rock n roll.

Good. I was worried about rock n roll.

 

[mscroggi]

This is America, land of the american dream. Small business is at the heart of that, and it's the day of the craft beer. InBev, Saporo and similar pose no threat the zillion small breweries that have popped up all around me.

Wow I completely disagree.. I am guessing you are too young to remember the beer climate of the 80's (the last craft beer renaissance).. The exact sentiment was expressed time and time again.. The thought was that now that people have become familiar with the richer flavors they would never go back. But with distribution channels being controlled by you-know-who, and with the lopsided laws, by the 90's we were down to a few hundred breweries in the U.S. and most of the startup breweries/brewpubs were choked out. If you lived in a place that didn't have local breweries, you had very little to choose from. I remember working with my local liquor store to try to get Samuel Adams in the shop. He inquired about it multiple times, but he just could not get it. We were back to Bass ale.

Check out the documentary 'Beer Wars' . It is on Amazon Prime, and Vudu.

The climate is much improved today thankfully. Finally some things have improved.. but there is a long way to go.. I am doing my part to keep history from repeating itself.