Anchor Brewing

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SanPancho

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So its OK to "judge" a person's or corporation's business activities by how YOU PERCEIVE how they "acted" and their "intent"?
Do you want all YOUR personal business transactions judged in the same manner?
Wow. You seem really upset about this conversation.

I quoted your post not to attack you, but because you referred to Anchor which is in my backyard, and of which i have second hand knowledge of the equity bro transaction that i wanted to reference and comment on- that “sell out” is generally a derogatory term, but pointless when used against someone who is literally intending to sell out, like the equity guys.

I have no problem with people judging and having their own opinions. Ive been called a greedy landlord, greedy developer, irresponsible business owner, gentrifier, etc. Free speech baby. Love it or leave it. When you combine free speech and capitalism this what you get.

Let me try to reiterate and go a bit further. The idea of selling out is like pornography- its a “know it when you see it” thing. And thats an individual opinion. You have yours- i have mine, that other dude has his.

I don’t understand why you jump into challenging the idea that folks can try and evaluate why a company did what they did before they they decide to call it selling out? Is it bad to think about something before you make a decision? That seems pretty dumb.

Maytag put in millions and decades before calling it quits. Can you call him a sell out? Sure. But its definitely debatable, given the long history, especially his age. Dude was at retirement age. I dont see that as selling out.

Lagunitas is similar in that they’ve been around for ages. But they still run their own show, so i fail to see how thats selling out. Its taking in a big investor. Big difference.

The LA brewery designed and planned for buyout, thats a sell out to me. Even though technically the founder is still there and they still run their own show, ala Lagunitas.

And the equity bros who bought anchor? Purchased with the explicit intent to flip it. Its just silly to even bother calling it a sell out when that was their stated goal from the get go. Its like calling that goth kid a weirdo- obvious and exactly what he wants to be.

To be clear- when i say the LA deal offends me, its because it signaled that craft beer is officially a big business market for capital/wall street/global equity,etc. Id take the money in a heartbeat if it happened to me, but its still a bummer for what it says about this little area of the brewing world.

The point i intended to make above with different examples is that we should think about the context before just automatically calling it selling out, and same for those throwing up a boycott. Everyone has their own opinion and judgement, i simply say folks should try and learn a little before they judge.

I
 
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lump42

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I think your reality might be a little skewed if you're truely making this comparison. To do so is quite ridiculous! That's apples-to-zebras my friend....
Everyone's reality is skewed by their own experiences and perspectives. I personally think apples-to-zebras is a valid comparison.


Ever been offered instant retirement and financial wellbeing? Pride is a deceiving emotion. I too have left jobs paying more, quit a career, stop making money to go back to school for the pursuit of a new one that pays less. But I would retire in a heartbeat if someone offered $3 mil for my brewery...its not like they are going to use it to do harm!!
You never mentioned instant retirement in prior statement, only continued employment. To watch the company that was hard fought for to be internally dismantled and control to be shipped off to Belgium. The head brewers at ABI crafty brewery locations surely get some freedoms, but like any large corporation it's only until they decide their freedom isn't lining the shareholders pockets enough. I have no desires to truly retire. If it isn't this career, it will be another even if it is humping 10-12hr daily as a volunteer. I get more self fullfillment from helping others than making money. It also depends on what you mean by harm. Are they going to convert the brewery to start making soylent green, no. But they could use the brewery in such a way that they essentially close the market to anyone else who wants to start.


They are constantly being checked by the numerous laws and regulations in place. They pay their fines. The law is not black and white, its grey. A lot is up for interpretation especially in the civil sector. Not to mention a law can become changed by precedent ruled on by one individual, the judge! Who may or may not have an incentive to do so...
Unfortunately with our current political environment (last several decades), those laws and regulations have often been heavily written or influences by the big players in the different industries. ABI is large enough to fund several lobbying groups in every state and federally. They pay their fines when they get caught, but how often have they been able to influence or strong arm local regulators. The judges, especially elected ones, are also going to be beholden to their campaign contributors, unless the public provides enough outcry to overshadow the money, which is what many are trying to rally the populous.


***********

BTW, thanks for the civil debate...we're both fighting a losing battle. Lol
Agreed, civil debates seem to be too far and few between. People tend to take debates as personal attacks and get ugly quick. :ban:
 

GoeHaarden

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But they could use the brewery in such a way that they essentially close the market to anyone else who wants to start.
Not true entirely. Sure, they can crush a lot of the competition. Kind of the goal in for-profit business, but what about the ones who make it? Founders Brewing is one of my favorites, and it's technically no longer a craft brewery due to taking on some large investors. Should we boycott them too as their market share is growing beyond arbitrary craft brew rules!? Their growth no doubtably has an impact on the competition. I know your response is going to be about legal tactics, but honestly we don't know if they are breaking any commerce laws until they get caught.

I do about 10mph over the speed limit everywhere I go and have yet to get a ticket. Breaking the law yes, but to what extent!? Just a little is ok if we dont get caught right!?

Have you been out to Sierra Nevada's place in N.C.? It's quite spectacular...It is very pssible to be successful in the market. Sure, you have to work hard initially but with the right beer and business plan it totally do-able.

Unfortunately with our current political environment (last several decades), those laws and regulations have often been heavily written or influences by the big players in the different industries
Who is the real enemy here? The government! For all of you anti-InBev bandwagoners who don't vote some responsibilty falls in your own lap!!!
 

lump42

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Not true entirely. Sure, they can crush a lot of the competition. Kind of the goal in for-profit business, but what about the ones who make it? Founders Brewing is one of my favorites, and it's technically no longer a craft brewery due to taking on some large investors. Should we boycott them too as their market share is growing beyond arbitrary craft brew rules!? Their growth no doubtably has an impact on the competition. I know your response is going to be about legal tactics, but honestly we don't know if they are breaking any commerce laws until they get caught.
I believe they're majority owned by a spanish brewing group that has no other presence in the US. So they are unlikely to be playing be unfair rules, and are small enough they are unlikely to push distributors around as if they were subsidiary businesses.



Who is the real enemy here? The government! For all of you anti-InBev bandwagoners who don't vote some responsibilty falls in your own lap!!!
Agreed. Unfortunately much of this started before I was born, let alone before I was voting age. Not only should the populous be aware of the bad business players and vote with their dollars, but also actually vote in a manner that benefits the people and not corporations. Nov 6 is right around the corner!:mug:
 

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As I've followed this one consideration doesn't seem to be noted.

We have no idea what the initial motivations of craft brewers that drove them to get started in the business. Maybe it was love of beer. Maybe they wanted to show they could do it. Maybe their whole reason for being was to provide certain members of HBT with craft beer unsullied by association with the megabrewers. And maybe they were hoping to become successful enough to be bought out.

It's...well, presumptuous for any of us here to project our values and beliefs on such brewers, and expect them to have honored them.

They owe us nothing. We may not like the results of selling out, but it's not our lives and businesses that are up for discussion. Further, some of us may feel like such people selling out have turned their backs on the craft beer drinker....when we have no idea if that was in fact any part of the motivation to begin with.

You don't want to drink InBev beers, that's fine. I don't. But please--projecting one's values on others, as if they should have hold the same values, and then finding them wanting for not having held those values in high esteem, doesn't get us anywhere.
 

GilaMinumBeer

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Sapporo started in 1876 and is Japans oldest brewery. They too were "craft" at one point. Anchor sold for $85 million at a time when their production was little more than 130 thousand barrels. For $85 million. Sapporo has the resources to grow the brand, not to mention the 142 years of experience on how to grow the brand.
 

madscientist451

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I have no problem with people judging and having their own opinions.

Everyone has their own opinion and judgement, i simply say folks should try and learn a little before they judge.
Hallelujah!

The only thing I would add is perhaps judgement can be scaled back and business decisions can simply be accepted for what they are.
 
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Tobor_8thMan

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Not wanting to come across an an anti-Capitalist (I'm not), it's simply, in my experiences, when a BIG company purchases/takes over anything the product suffers or has even died.

In my life I honestly don't recall any product being better once taken over. However, I do realize the goal for many is "start it, build it and get bought out for $$$$".

What does this have to do with beer? A prior post in this thread wrote Anchor Steam isn't as good as in the past. Unfortunately, in my area, these are difficult to find so I haven't had one in a while. There was a restaurant nearby with Anchor Steam on tap. For me = complete nirvana. Guess we'll just have to brew our own.
 

SanPancho

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As an SF local, as well as someone who mistakenly took a bigass swig from someone elses pint just the other night, i can assure there is no change in quality. Anchor is just as disgusting now as it always used to be. But now you have a dozen varieties of nasty to choose from!
 

mscroggi

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Not wanting to come across an an anti-Capitalist (I'm not), it's simply, in my experiences, when a BIG company purchases/takes over anything the product suffers or has even died.

In my life I honestly don't recall any product being better once taken over. However, I do realize the goal for many is "start it, build it and get bought out for $$$$".
There is selling to a larger group to survive, and there is selling to the singular devil that earlier very nearly used ILLEGAL tactics to force all competition out of business. The same devil that undeniably continues to use the same tactics today. Some of the hyper-cynical don't see a problem with it. I do. Its akin to buying a 'used' stereo that is known to having been stolen.. Some see it as a way to get an unbelievable deal.. Others see a chance to take a stance and do whatever they can to stop the thievery in the first place by not buying it.
 

mscroggi

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As an SF local, as well as someone who mistakenly took a bigass swig from someone elses pint just the other night, i can assure there is no change in quality. Anchor is just as disgusting now as it always used to be. But now you have a dozen varieties of nasty to choose from!
I haven't had one in a long time.. but back in the day - when very few craft beers were available - Anchor Steam Liberty Ale was the bomb for me. I will have to seek one out and see how it compares to my memories... I suspect it will pale (no pun intended) in comparison to the current offerings.. But it will be interesting!....
 

mongoose33

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I brew a Cal Common beer, and happen to have an Anchor Steam in my fridge. It isn't as good as I remember.
 
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I like inbev products. They aren't the best beers (by a long shot), but given the right situation they are fine.

This is America, land of the american dream. Small business is at the heart of that, and it's the day of the craft beer. InBev, Saporo and similar pose no threat the zillion small breweries that have popped up all around me. My goodness, the chicken littles that run around looking at the sky. Believe me, craft beer is doing just fine. It might be leveling off (market is kinda saturated), but craft beer here to stay, like rock n roll.

 

davidabcd

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Shock Top used to be better. Loved it when I first tried it. Blue Moon has either declined or just lost its luster for me.

Regarding the whole back and forth disagreement, it seems there are, more or less, two camps:

A) Some people naturally look out for others and maybe don't get why everyone else doesn't do that.

B) Some people tend to look out for themselves, basically, and wonder why everyone else doesn't do that.

***I have no opinion on whether any brewery seller or buyer mentioned here is right or wrong.

I guess the biggest difference between A and B is a matter of how much responsibility either is willing to accept for the results of their actions or decisions they make, who or what it affects and so on.
 

SanPancho

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Yeah, liberty ale and porter were some of my first craft beers in high school. Good stuff back then, plus petes wicked ale, sierra nevada. Was never a big redhook fan tho.
 

mongoose33

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I like inbev products. They aren't the best beers (by a long shot), but given the right situation they are fine.

This is America, land of the american dream. Small business is at the heart of that, and it's the day of the craft beer. InBev, Saporo and similar pose no threat the zillion small breweries that have popped up all around me. My goodness, the chicken littles that run around looking at the sky. Believe me, craft beer is doing just fine. It might be leveling off (market is kinda saturated), but craft beer here to stay, like rock n roll.
Good. I was worried about rock n roll.
 

mscroggi

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This is America, land of the american dream. Small business is at the heart of that, and it's the day of the craft beer. InBev, Saporo and similar pose no threat the zillion small breweries that have popped up all around me.
Wow I completely disagree.. I am guessing you are too young to remember the beer climate of the 80's (the last craft beer renaissance).. The exact sentiment was expressed time and time again.. The thought was that now that people have become familiar with the richer flavors they would never go back. But with distribution channels being controlled by you-know-who, and with the lopsided laws, by the 90's we were down to a few hundred breweries in the U.S. and most of the startup breweries/brewpubs were choked out. If you lived in a place that didn't have local breweries, you had very little to choose from. I remember working with my local liquor store to try to get Samuel Adams in the shop. He inquired about it multiple times, but he just could not get it. We were back to Bass ale.

Check out the documentary 'Beer Wars' . It is on Amazon Prime, and Vudu.

The climate is much improved today thankfully. Finally some things have improved.. but there is a long way to go.. I am doing my part to keep history from repeating itself.
 

mscroggi

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Ford motor company just bought out the craft transportation company Spin.

Boycott NOW! Save craft transportation!
If Ford controlled the distribution of electric scooters and forced the market to only allow their brand, I would absolutely boycott Ford.
 

mscroggi

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Ford bought the brand specifically because it already has controlled distribution in it's market area.
Not so. Anyone is free to start an electric scooter company and sell the product in the open market all across the country. Nobody is being FORCED to sell their scooters only through a Ford distributorship AND not able to sell directly to the consumer.

Check out the documentary 'Beer Wars' . It is on Amazon Prime, and Vudu.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-tier_system_(alcohol_distribution)
 
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GilaMinumBeer

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Not so. Anyone is free to start an electric scooter company and sell the product in the open market all across the country. Nobody is being FORCED to sell their scooters only through a Ford distributorship AND not able to sell directly to the consumer.
Ford bought Spin because it has a controlled market in San Francisco. Spin and only 1 other brand are allowed to be offered for rental in that market area.

Your beer wars argument is irrelevant. It was a documentary made 9 years ago and based on information collected several years prior. Many states have invalidated your claims to bias.
 

GoeHaarden

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Some of the hyper-cynical don't see a problem with it.
Man, I wish my only real problem in life was being concerned with big brewery business tactics. You must be sitting pretty.

Not really sure it would qualify one as cynical...

Check out the documentary 'Beer Wars' . It is on Amazon Prime, and Vudu.
Hate to break it to you, but you do know that documentaries are usually biased by interests of the person(s) doing the film!?
 

mscroggi

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Ford bought Spin because it has a controlled market in San Francisco. Spin and only 1 other brand are allowed to be offered for rental in that market area.
You just made my point!.

Your beer wars argument is irrelevant. It was a documentary made 9 years ago and based on information collected several years prior. Many states have invalidated your claims to bias.
No the monopolistic methods are still waaaaay in play. Just last year ABI was fined in California for illegally stifling competition. Even in states where strides have been made to address this issue.. the laws implemented are very often very limited.. But its something at least.. The usual thought is that its a baby step but at least progress..

You must live in an area where it is more relaxed. I do not.. I feel the pain of Beer Voltron.

https://www.craftbeer.com/craft-beer-muses/three-tier-system-impacts-craft-beer
 

Zuljin

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I like Pabst. Just because some dirty hipsters have tried to subvert it to their ill ways doesn't mean it's suddenly a bad beer.

But when your brewery depends entirely on another brewery brewing your brew- that's a failure in the making.
 
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