Almost Complete (W/Pictures)

[Ajgeo]

No, that is not "straight shot". Trust me, I use it quite a bit and it works fine.

Your method would work great in a welded coupler. Speaking of water and tiny holes, what about a boilover with your arrangement? Wouldn't water leak in between the tack welds?

 

[iijakii]

I'd love a triclover setup for it. But alas, weldless.

 

[rsklhm10]

No, that is not "straight shot". Trust me, I use it quite a bit and it works fine.

Your method would work great in a welded coupler. Speaking of water and tiny holes, what about a boilover with your arrangement? Wouldn't water leak in between the tack welds?

Kind of my question, it was stated that your mount is fully waterproof. However, if it is only tack welded (which is obviously not waterproof), you are relying on the silicone to seal the element (assumably on the inside of the mount). So what is the real difference from kal's method? Honestly, kal (and I) are also using silicone, only ours is for additional assurance from leaks. Whereas you are actually relying on the silicone for your seal...

Maybe I am missing something? As it is apparent, as well as admitted, that your silicone o-ring is only to prevent scratches on the kettle.

 

[rollinred]

Kind of my question, it was stated that your mount is fully waterproof. However, if it is only tack welded (which is obviously not waterproof), you are relying on the silicone to seal the element (assumably on the inside of the mount). So what is the real difference from kal's method? Honestly, kal (and I) are also using silicone, only ours is for additional assurance from leaks. Whereas you are actually relying on the silicone for your seal...

Maybe I am missing something? As it is apparent, as well as admitted, that your silicone o-ring is only to prevent scratches on the kettle.

What!?

There is a LOT in what you wrote that was not stated by me anywhere.

This is not, nor ever was meant as waterproof. It is splash proof. What I have done is a proof of concept... nothing more. Is it usable yes. But I am still searching for the method I choose to use to make it water proof. Which could either be welding it all the way around and designing a new cover for the box or finding a different enclosure. The other thing to mention is that removing the element in the Kal setup versus this setup would disturb the silicone on the inside. Creating a potential fore leakage. The Silicone I used is in a paper thin gap that never gets disturbed and never has to be reapplied.

My method has nothing to do with scratches on the outside. I used the washer inside to allow me to tighten it further which also has the benefit of eliminating scratches on the inside.

Using lateral compressive force on the o-ring is not a good method, especially when the surface the o-ring being forced against is NOT the flange on the heating element. Direct compressive force is how an o-ring is designed to be used. The o-ring should mate with two surfaces, the kettle and the heating element flange, if you put anything else between them you have a potential for leaks. In the case of the Kal method, the leak would be directly in to the electrical box. Leaks in a method like the one I am using will go on the floor. I much prefer the floor than inside the electrical box.

 

[rsklhm10]

What!?

There is a LOT in what you wrote that was not stated by me anywhere.

This is not, nor ever was meant as waterproof. It is splash proof. What I have done is a proof of concept... nothing more. Is it usable yes. But I am still searching for the method I choose to use to make it water proof. Which could either be welding it all the way around and designing a new cover for the box or finding a different enclosure. The other thing to mention is that removing the element in the Kal setup versus this setup would disturb the silicone on the inside. Creating a potential fore leakage. The Silicone I used is in a paper thin gap that never gets disturbed and never has to be reapplied.

My method has nothing to do with scratches on the outside. I used the washer inside to allow me to tighten it further which also has the benefit of eliminating scratches on the inside.

Using lateral compressive force on the o-ring is not a good method, especially when the surface the o-ring being forced against is NOT the flange on the heating element. Direct compressive force is how an o-ring is designed to be used. The o-ring should mate with two surfaces, the kettle and the heating element flange, if you put anything else between them you have a potential for leaks. In the case of the Kal method, the leak would be directly in to the electrical box. Leaks in a method like the one I am using will go on the floor. I much prefer the floor than inside the electrical box.

I do believe on more than one occasion you have set forth that your mount is a better concept than kal's and "cannot" leak. If it cannot leak, that would lead almost everyone to believe your mount is "waterproof." However, now you indicate it is splash proof, but better because you have tack welded the element and proceeded to use silicone (again, kal's method uses silicone in practically the same method as yours). Personally, I still find it hard pressed to believe that the manner in which the o-ring in kal's method is not a good method. From what I understand, having an o-ring or gasket between the element base and the other object is accpetable, but being between another object is not. Maybe it should be clarified again that the element is extremly tight up against the thin element cover (not the large box) to the point where the o-ring not being against the element base is a technicality. Further, the element cover provides a bigger service area to seal against as compared to the element base.

In simplest terms I think about it like this. Even if I give you that an o-ring should not be used in that manner, if one used an o-ring between the kettle and the element base and the o-ring failed it would still cause a leak "into" the element cover (this is how elements are mounted in water heaters). Finally, I have never had to remove my element and do not believe it will be necessary unless the element fails, so that is not really a factor to me. Even still, we are talking about running a simple bead of silicone, not re-inventing the wheel.

Notwithstanding, I commend you on your design and think it certainly has benefits. As I said before, I am not here to argue over it, but simply further understand and clarify. As SWMBO constantly says, I make my living by arguing, that's the nature of my profession and I would rather not do that here... Cheers!

As a side note for those using a kal method. Just to see if I could get it to leak, I just hooked up my pressure washer and sprayed the spare mount on an extra keggle I have from about a foot away. I could not get the element to leak. It did dent the thin metal cover.

 

[Ajgeo]

Using lateral compressive force on the o-ring is not a good method, especially when the surface the o-ring being forced against is NOT the flange on the heating element. Direct compressive force is how an o-ring is designed to be used. The o-ring should mate with two surfaces, the kettle and the heating element flange, if you put anything else between them you have a potential for leaks. In the case of the Kal method, the leak would be directly in to the electrical box. Leaks in a method like the one I am using will go on the floor. I much prefer the floor than inside the electrical box.

I don't agree. Here is a good reference on o-rings by an o-ring manufacturer.

Some key points from page 5:
-The o-ring's circular cross section is also appealing because it is adaptable to axial, radial, or angular squeeze.
-o-rings seal in both directions
-the o-ring is flexible and absorbs metal tolerance stack-up

It is true that we are not using a water element as it was designed to be used. I think we all know that. It comes with a square profile gasket. We discard that and use the high temp silicone o-ring. We are using o-rings as they were designed to be used. It doesn't matter which two surfaces are mated, as long the o-ring is sufficiently compressed to create a seal.

 

[rollinred]

I don't agree. Here is a good reference on o-rings by an o-ring manufacturer.

Some key points from page 5:
-The o-ring's circular cross section is also appealing because it is adaptable to axial, radial, or angular squeeze.
-o-rings seal in both directions
-the o-ring is flexible and absorbs metal tolerance stack-up

It is true that we are not using a water element as it was designed to be used. I think we all know that. It comes with a square profile gasket. We discard that and use the high temp silicone o-ring. We are using o-rings as they were designed to be used. It doesn't matter which two surfaces are mated, as long the o-ring is sufficiently compressed to create a seal.

Your not accounting for the curvature of the kettle and the uneven force being applied.

rsklhm10:

Read your post again

I do believe on more than one occasion you have set forth that your mount is a better concept than kal's and "cannot" leak. If it cannot leak, that would lead almost everyone to believe your mount is "waterproof." However, now you indicate it is splash proof, but better because you have tack welded the element and proceeded to use silicone

You're talking about two different concepts.

1. Leakage, which is the concept that water leaks out of the kettle through this particular fitting. I do believe, through the test I did, that this method leaks less because you can get more pressure applied to the o-ring without the washer being in there. Regardless, you have heard me say that if mine does leak, it leaks on to the floor and NEVER has a chance to get in the electrical box because the element flange is exterior of the box. Again, the bigger the kettle the less likely a leak will develop and drip out of the keg, but in the Kal design, it can get behind the metal cover that is bolted on.

2. Splash proof vs water proof. This concept is in regards to some mishap such as boil over or external splash of water, such as during cleaning. This design is no less splash proof than Kal's. Which I have already stated, that we have equality in the aspect of our design. This is a situation where the use of silicone is also appropriate. Think about the caulk around your bath. Same concept here except for my gaps are FAR smaller and much more capable of using a sealant because it acts as a gasket rather than a barrier.


The aspect we should be most concerned with is number 1. Most importantly because we can not see inside the box while running. If there is a leak from the kettle that gets inside the box there is a very dangerous situation. That is only possible with a design where the o-ring does not meet directly with the flange.

And I will say it again, bigger kettles will have a significantly smaller chance of leaking with any type of mount. They have much less curvature and apply a more even pressure on the o-ring. As you tighten the o-ring on a contoured surface it will tend to squeeze outward where there is less pressure. In Kal's design the washer is required because without it, on small kettles, there is a much greater chance that the o-ring does not squeeze in enough to mate with the element shaft. That risk is eliminated with an 0-ring to flange connection. Even if it does leak, you know it within seconds and can address it.

Edit: Lets make sure when discussing we are talking about the same thing. Leakage from the kettle or splashes from outside factors.

 

[kal]

Below are some pictures of a my heating element design installed and running on a 10 gallon Blichmann Boilermaker. These were sent to me by Mike of Spike Innovations late last night while load testing a control panel he just finished building on his own personal 10 gallon kettle. (Thanks Mike!)

The nut on the inside was not completely tightened on purpose to try and generate leaks. It did not leak when tugging and pushing on it in every direction, even with 200 degree water around it while running.

Continuity with the ground was tested as well and the kettle was properly grounded at every point tested. The top and bottom of the washer was in contact with the kettle wall at all times during tugging and pushing.

There is certainly more wall curvature than with (say) the larger diameter 20 gallon Blichmann or a 15 gallon keggle, but even the 10 gallon Blichmann these tests show that it does not appear to leak.

Kal

 

[lschiavo]

This whole discussion was not started about whether or not a design leaks. We all want them not to. It is about IF it leaks and then not having a path to leak into the electrical box.

 

[rollinred]

This whole discussion was not started about whether or not a design leaks. We all want them not to. It is about IF it leaks and then not having a path to leak into the electrical box.

This.

 

[kevink]

Maybe a picture will help.

 

[lschiavo]

Maybe a picture will help.

Worth at least a thousand words

 

[rollinred]

Maybe a picture will help.

Thank you Kevin.

 

[kevink]

Just look at the tiny contact patch between the 0-ring and the element base. If there were no electrical box cover there, you would double or more than double the surface area contact between the O-ring and the element base. I know, this is kind of slightly off topic, but I just realized that...

 

[rollinred]

Just look at the tiny contact patch between the 0-ring and the element base. If there were no electrical box cover there, you would double or more than double the surface area contact between the O-ring and the element base. I know, this is kind of slightly off topic, but I just realized that...

Correct. Also notice that the o-ring compressive force is against the cover and kettle wall. In a situation where there is a leak which path do you think the wort will take?

1. the path where compressive force from the o-ring is greatest...

or

2. the path of least resistance where there is a smaller amount of lateral compressive force.


It may be a rare situation and in most peoples experience they have never had a leak.
In my experience I have never been in a car accident in the thousands of times I have drove. So should I stop wearing my seat belt?

All it takes is one nick from the o-ring being put on or for a slight gap to develop and the wort will take that path of least resistance... right in to the electrical box.

Drill a weep hole if you insist on using this method.

 

[kevink]

rollin,

Drill a weep hole if you insist on using this method.

I really agree with you here.

I actually feel pretty good about NOT having a weep hole in my setup due to the huge amount of surface area contact between my O-ring and element base.

 

[rollinred]

rollin,



I really agree with you here.

I actually feel pretty good about NOT having a weep hole in my setup due to the huge amount of surface area contact between my O-ring and element base.

I agree with you that you have much less to worry about. But I do hope you lubricate the o-ring before tightening. We have more o-ring failures do to no lubrication on thread in parts than any other.

I recommend a mineral oil and not a food oil as the proteins congeal and make a mess. And a thin coat of mineral oil won't kill you.

 

[iijakii]

Most of us have keg lube around anyways.

 

[kevink]

But I do hope you lubricate the o-ring before tightening.

Definitely. During building my keggle, I had the element in and out maybe a half a dozen times. Believe it or not, I found that water, spit, and keg lube all provide basically the same amount of lubrication, i.e., the same amount of force on the wrench compressed the O-ring the same amount, resulting in the same element clocking. No lube at all requires much more force on the wrench which I'm sure just wreaks havoc on the poor O-ring. It's a very noticeable difference. I think I settled on Keg Lube, though.

 

[rollinred]

I forgot about keg lube!

That would be just as good as mineral oil!

Water might seem to help but it doesn't provide enough friction resistance to get my vote.

 

[brew-n-que]

So what about soldering the metal cover in Kal's design to the element flange?

At first glance this appears to solve the stated issue while retaining the ability to replace the element fairly easily?

 

[rollinred]

So what about soldering the metal cover in Kal's design to the element flange?

At first glance this appears to solve the stated issue while retaining the ability to replace the element fairly easily?

It would, but you would melt the plastic on the element if you tried it. For that mater, if it was possible to solder an element in place you could just take the design I came up with, and solder it to the back of the box after sanding the paint off. That would be the absolute ideal solution.

 

[kevink]

Yeah, I wish!

Actually, if anyone has a bad element laying around, I'll gladly accept it (I'll pay shipping) and do some experimental TIG welding on it to see how much heat it can take. If we could successfully TIG these things without ruining the base, a million doors would open. I'm not optimistic, but you never know. They're obviously built to take SOME heat already, so they may be able to withstand very careful TIG welding. Please PM me if you have one that you no longer need.

 

[lschiavo]

Nobody is arguing anymore. Did we finally make our point?

 

[cl330b]

That's because we all decided that tack welding the element sucks.

 

[lschiavo]

Tack welding was not our point.

 

[cl330b]

Tack welding was not our point.

I know, the point is wort leaking past the o-ring and entering the box.

 

[lschiavo]

I know, the point is wort leaking past the o-ring and entering the box.

Alright, you pass. Now go tack weld something to something else

 

[rollinred]

That's because we all decided that tack welding the element sucks.

Tack welding vs wort leaking in to the electrical box without you knowing.

I will take the tack weld for 1000 Alex.

Kevin. My intention is to fire up my dads TIG and finish up the weld. I just have to get a little practice with it on AC first. Heat management, we shall see how it goes.

 

[kevink]

He's obviously in the camp of "If I can't make it with a hammer and a screwdriver, or if it costs more than 5 dollars, it sucks. I don't care if it's clearly superior." There's way too many people here who belong to that camp, and quite frankly, it's frightening... and sad.