All grain problems

[redpipe67]

Hello brewers!

Looking for some feedback, pointers and general assistance with my all grain brewing problems.

I had been extract brewing for about 4 years or so and was very happy with the resulting beer from this method. As the years went I became more interested in all grain brewing and wanted to make the investments for the additional equipment to give it a try.

Around the same time I switched to all grain, I moved to a different house that is on a well but i did not give this a thought, we have the filters and UV system that would in my opinion have been enough to keep the water useable...it tasted fine after all.

Needless to say, my first all grain brew at my new place was awful and was promptly dumped, it was here I switched to RO water and made more purchases for the salts and minerals I may need.

To take a step back, I just want to make note of the items I purchased when I went from extract to all grain, I purchased a cooler for my mash tun and items to turn it into a mash tun, another brew kettle so I could drain the second runnings into this while the first runnings were on the burner, I bought an immersion chiller since I had been cooling with an ice bath at my old place for the extract brews, I also bought an aeration stone and an oxygen bottle for oxygenation, a mill for the grain and a ph meter.

Not knowing much about water chemistry I wanted quick and easy direction for what I should be adding to RO water for hoppy IPA’s and followed the advice from here...



Intro to reverse osmosis and brewing better beer | Homebrew Happy Hour



I use 4 grams calcium chloride and 7 grams gypsum for a 5 gallon IPA. My beer following the change to RO water was drinkable but lacked any of the hop aromas and flavours I was expecting based on the hops used and tasted like nothing in particular...bland, no distinct flavours.

My next brew I ditched the yeast I had been using (washed from an older extract brew and kept in the fridge) and went with a fresh smack pack, hoping this was the problem...the next beer tasted the same, despite a different recipe...bland, no hoppiness.

My next change was to change the grain, I buy 50lb bags an was almost on the last 10 lbs or so, I figured why not...same results, bland, kind of bitter but no flavour, drinkable for myself but I wouldn’t give it to anyone. I started having real concerns with my sanitation, I used StarSan appropriately took the measures that I should be but despite this, I wanted to rule out some of my equipment that I had bought when this started happening.

I brewed a 1 gallon BIAB on the stove to remove the mash tun, I cooled in an ice bath to remove the chiller and fermented in a carbouy to remove my fermenter...same results, same flavourless bland liquid

Next I replaced all of my hops with brand new since I buy by the pound, I have some on hand for months and months. Next batch with my new hops was exactly the same...nyaaaah.

So here I am, based on my deductions I believe it is down to 2 things...

1. The additions I am using for the RO water are not that good for the hoppy IPA I want, despite the advice from that web page.
2. The oxygen I am using to aerate the wort before pitching the yeast is contaminating it, it’s a bottle I bought in a hardware store by Benzomatic and I’m wondering if this isn’t good enough for brewing.

A few pieces of information about my brews.



Batch sparging.

1 hour at 150, drain and then 15 minutes at 168 degrees

1 hour boil

Mash ph between 5.2 and 5.5

Calcium chloride and gypsum added to boil not mash

Cooled to 68

Fermenter is a 6 gallon SS brew tech conical with thermometer.



I. Looking forward to any advice and comments you have.



Thank you in advance

 

[micraftbeer]

Do you have a copy of your recipe, and whether you were able to hit your projected OG? Bland flavor is probably most likely water, but I don't see anything too far off there.

 

[redpipe67]

Thanks for the reply Micraft,
Schedule
1 oz @45 centennial
0.5 oz @15 cascade
0.5 oz @ 10 Cascade
1 oz @ 5 cascade
1 oz @ Flame Out cascade, hop stand for 15 minutes
2 oz dry hop 5 days citra

11 lbs 2 row
0.5 lb crystal 40
0.5 lb flaked oats.

this was my most recent brew that tastes identical to every other brew preceding it that contains different hops. Bland, no hop character coming through and very disappointing. Unable todistinguish the hops used each time.
Would the lactic acid I use to reduce the ph in the mash cause problems, not sure what kind I should have but it says cosmetic on the bottle...

thanks again

Editing to add yeast was California ale WLP001
OG 1.058, FG 1.012

 

[IslandLizard]

What yeast are you using? Ferm temps?

It's hard to believe an IPA being bland, her flavor/aroma floats mostly on hops.

1. Where did you get the hops?
2. Pellets?
3. What kind of bags?
4. How were they stored?
5. Sealed?
6. What do they smell like when you open a new bag?
7. How do you store them?

 

[IslandLizard]

Would the lactic acidosis I use to reduce the ph in the mash cause problems, not sure what kind I should have but it says cosmetic on the bottle...

[EDIT] I don't know what that is. Lactic Acidosis is a metabolic disease.
Cosmetic use? Cream? Do not ingest?

Most Brewers use Lactic Acid.
A 5oz bottle of 88% Lactic Acid runs about $4 at the brew store. Half a tsp, if that, should be enough when using RO water.

Lactic Acid is also a much better deal than buying Phosphoric Acid at the brew store, which is only 10% there, and runs $6 for 8oz.

 

[micraftbeer]

Cosmetic sounds weird. Does it have an ingredient list to show it only has lactic acid, and not other stuff like perfumes, etc? And what about concentration? I'm guessing you're probably saying "5.2 - 5.5 pH" based on a water calculator, not a measurement (since you didn't mention buying a pH meter). In which case the concentration needs to be confirmed.

But all that aside, nothing seems alarmingly out of whack. When you say bland beer, it's definitely about the water. I've been there before, when I brewed using Distilled water + brewing salts to hit a water profile, and then changed to filtered tap water. My personal "hoppy water profile", that you could plug into a water calculator out there is:

Ca: 65 ppm, Mg: 18, Cl: 58, SO4: 164

 

[redpipe67]

[EDIT] I don't know what that is. Lactic Acidosis is a metabolic disease.
Cosmetic use? Cream? Do not ingest?

Most Brewers use Lactic Acid.
A 5oz bottle of 88% Lactic Acid runs about $4 at the brew store. Half a tsp, if that, should be enough when using RO water.

Lactic Acid is also a much better deal than buying Phosphoric Acid at the brew store, which is only 10% there, and runs $6 for 8oz.

Thanks, I use Lactic Acid, autocorrect decided to change that for me

 

[redpipe67]

What yeast are you using? Ferm temps?

It's hard to believe an IPA being bland, her flavor/aroma floats mostly on hops.

1. Where did you get the hops? Online HBS I have been using for years OBK
2. Pellets? Yes
3. What kind of bags? 1lb from the hop supplier
4. How were they stored? No idea
5. Sealed? Yes
6. What do they smell like when you open a new bag? Nice and fresh
7. How do you store them? In the freezer vacuum packed in food saver bags

 

[IslandLizard]

Although you edited your posts this remains puzzling:

[...] it says cosmetic on the bottle...

So, what is it? Where you get it? Maybe it's killing your beer flavor?

 

[redpipe67]

Cosmetic sounds weird. Does it have an ingredient list to show it only has lactic acid, and not other stuff like perfumes, etc? And what about concentration? I'm guessing you're probably saying "5.2 - 5.5 pH" based on a water calculator, not a measurement (since you didn't mention buying a pH meter). In which case the concentration needs to be confirmed.

But all that aside, nothing seems alarmingly out of whack. When you say bland beer, it's definitely about the water. I've been there before, when I brewed using Distilled water + brewing salts to hit a water profile, and then changed to filtered tap water. My personal "hoppy water profile", that you could plug into a water calculator out there is:

Ca: 65 ppm, Mg: 18, Cl: 58, SO4: 164

I can check the bottle for an ingredients list tomorrow and let you know, ph was from a meter, I mentioned buying it directly after the grain mill in the op.
I’ll give your profile a run on my next brew, thanks for the suggestion.

 

[redpipe67]

Although you edited your posts this remains puzzling:

So, what is it? Where you get it? Maybe it's killing your beer flavor?

I got it from amazon, I have attached a pic and product description from amazon

 

[IslandLizard]

[...] tastes identical to every other brew preceding it that contains different hops. Bland, no hop character coming through and very disappointing. Unable todistinguish the hops used each time.

That points to something with your hops.
Do you toss them in loose into the kettle?
Drop dry hops loose into fermenter or contained somehow.
Use a secondary?

How is the bitterness?
There should be at least 50 IBUs from those hop additions (wild guess).

 

[redpipe67]

That points to something with your hops.
Do you toss them in loose into the kettle?
Drop dry hops loose into fermenter or contained somehow.
Use a secondary?

How is the bitterness?
There should be at least 50 IBUs from those hop additions (wild guess).

Hops are tossed in loose into the boil, dry hopped using a hop sock, exact same way when I was brewing extract, no change except in hoppiness flavour and aroma.

 

[Bobby_M]

You need calcium in the mash. The salts should be added there.

 

[redpipe67]

You need calcium in the mash. The salts should be added there.

Thanks Bobby, I should add that I was doing it that way originally and switched to adding to the boil instead while trying to determine the cause of my problem. Adding to the boil instead of the strike water did not make a difference to the issue I was having it will switch back as you suggest.

love your videos. Awesome resources.

 

[Bobby_M]

Do you temp control on the fermenter?Fermenting IPA above 66f is a good way to kill hop character. If previous batches were better, were those fermented in the winter?

 

[Birrus]

I assume that your house being on a "well" means you have no access to municipal treated water. If that's the case, you can always send a sample of your well water to a lab, to determine if it's "usable", and what type of filtering needs to be done. If you insist in using RO water, remember the malts used in a recipe determine the mash ph, which is why you should use a water calculator like brewcipher or brewersfriend to do the math, instead of a taking a "one size fits all" approach to salt additions. In any case, IMO you should always try to keep things simple, usually Calcium Chloride, Sulfate, and acid (for pale) or baking soda (for dark beers) additions to regulate ph do the trick. Aim for a higher sulfate to chloride ratio for hops to stand out, and the opposite for a more "round" beer. Some yeast nutrient might be needed as well, since there's no zinc in RO water. Aaaaand, since you just started brewing all grain, don't assume the problem lies in the water. Someone said water tweaking might make a good beer great, but will not make a bad beer good.

 

[redpipe67]

Do you temp control on the fermenter?Fermenting IPA above 66f is a good way to kill hop character. If previous batches were better, were those fermented in the winter?

No temp control, it floats between 66 and 72 depending on how vigorous the yeast are, I cool to 68, pitch the yeast and the next morning i will have active fermentation for about 4 days at 70 -72, it will slow down and temp drops to around 68 again for a week and then will drop to around 66 until I keg.
Sounds like an issue but has always been this way and I was getting delicious extract brews from the same.

 

[redpipe67]

I assume that your house being on a "well" means you have no access to municipal treated water. If that's the case, you can always send a sample of your well water to a lab, to determine if it's "usable", and what type of filtering needs to be done. If you insist in using RO water, remember the malts used in a recipe determine the mash ph, which is why you should use a water calculator like brewcipher or brewersfriend to do the math, instead of a taking a "one size fits all" approach to salt additions. In any case, IMO you should always try to keep things simple, usually Calcium Chloride, Sulfate, and acid (for pale) or baking soda (for dark beers) additions to regulate ph do the trick. Aim for a higher sulfate to chloride ratio for hops to stand out, and the opposite for a more "round" beer. Some yeast nutrient might be needed as well, since there's no zinc in RO water. Aaaaand, since you just started brewing all grain, don't assume the problem lies in the water. Someone said water tweaking might make a good beer great, but will not make a bad beer good.

Thanks for the advice Birrus, correct in your assumption of municipal water report. I would prefer to continue with RO water despite the option, the well water profile changes based on weather, rainfall or lack of so sending off for a report each time I want to brew is not something I would want to do. I appreciate your feedback regarding the malts, I generally use 2 row with some crystal 40 and then other additions depending on the recipe, flaked oats, rye, flaked corn, etc.the ph of the mash always comes in around 5.6 ish and I use lactic acid to reduce it to the 5.3 - 5.4 range. I’m guessing if I’m mainly using 2 row that the ph should be fairly consistent. If I can figure out my additions for the water profile, this probably should solve my problem I’m guessing.

 

[rjhoff]

Thanks for the reply Micraft,
Schedule
1 oz @45 centennial
0.5 oz @15 cascade
0.5 oz @ 10 Cascade
1 oz @ 5 cascade
1 oz @ Flame Out cascade, hop stand for 15 minutes
2 oz dry hop 5 days citra

11 lbs 2 row
0.5 lb crystal 40
0.5 lb flaked oats.

Thoughts on your hop schedule. I’m a hop head and use between 10 and 16 oz on my IPAs. You’re using 6 oz total. I’ve got a couple recipes where I add 0.4 oz magnum at boil 60 for a nice bitterness. That could have a big impact compared to your centennial at 45 (although not flavor or aroma). If you’re looking for more flavor, then you may want to add more hops during whirlpool instead of Or in addition to boil. Recently I’m doing longer hop stands and waiting for wort temp to drop before adding hops. For real hoppy beers I‘ll add 4+ oz for dry hop (5 gallon batches btw, assume yours is too)

 

[Jim R]

It would be interesting to see some of your brew day details - water volumes, first and second runnings volumes, gravities, boil kettle and fermenter volumes, OG, FG, etc.. How are you measuring pH? I use similar water additions to my RO-like water but I don't need any lactic acid additions at all to achieve proper pH's. Compared to some of my better IPA recipes, the recipe doesn't seem to have a lot of bittering hops (nothing at 60min, 1 oz at 45 min and then nothing till 15 min). Are you bottling or kegging? Maybe this is an oxidation problem after fermentation. Not sure though how that wouldn't turn out to be a pretty decent beer.

 

[redpipe67]

Thoughts on your hop schedule. I’m a hop head and use between 10 and 16 oz on my IPAs. You’re using 6 oz total. I’ve got a couple recipes where I add 0.4 oz magnum at boil 60 for a nice bitterness. That could have a big impact compared to your centennial at 45 (although not flavor or aroma). If you’re looking for more flavor, then you may want to add more hops during whirlpool instead of Or in addition to boil. Recently I’m doing longer hop stands and waiting for wort temp to drop before adding hops. For real hoppy beers I‘ll add 4+ oz for dry hop (5 gallon batches btw, assume yours is too)

Awesome, thanks for your suggestions to the hops rjhoff. I must add that I have brewed many extract beers using similar hop quantities to those I had posted earlier and was getting great results, something I can’t narrow down has every all grain batch tasting exactly the same, regardless of the hops used, drinkable but not shareable.

 

[dawn_kiebawls]

When you were doing extract, were you doing partial boils, cooling the wort, adding to the fermentor and topping off with sterilized water?

I ask that, to ask this: How are you cooling your wort and how long does it take? When I started doing all grain and cooling with an ice bath it would take a couple hours, which I then realized that my original 60 minute hop addition was more like 120 minutes, and my flavor/aroma additions really because 90 minute additions which destroyed any and every chance of me having any distinct flavors other than muddled dingleberries.

 

[redpipe67]

It would be interesting to see some of your brew day details - water volumes, first and second runnings volumes, gravities, boil kettle and fermenter volumes, OG, FG, etc.. How are you measuring pH? I use similar water additions to my RO-like water but I don't need any lactic acid additions at all to achieve proper pH's. Compared to some of my better IPA recipes, the recipe doesn't seem to have a lot of bittering hops (nothing at 60min, 1 oz at 45 min and then nothing till 15 min). Are you bottling or kegging? Maybe this is an oxidation problem after fermentation. Not sure though how that wouldn't turn out to be a pretty decent beer.

Hi Jim, thanks for the reply.
My strike and sparge water are 4.5 gallons each, I get around 3.5 gallons from my first runnings, around 7.5 gallons total, I don’t check for brew house efficiency and only check gravities prior to pitching yeast and following fermentation as I’m kegging. Ph is checked with a meter and rechecked every 15 minutes until mash is complete.
Boil kettle is a 10 gallon SS Brewtech 304, fermenter is the SS brewtech 7 gallon conical, I get just under 6 gallons in the fermenter from 7.5 in the boil.

 

[rjhoff]

Awesome, thanks for your suggestions to the hops rjhoff. I must add that I have brewed many extract beers using similar hop quantities to those I had posted earlier and was getting great results, something I can’t narrow down has every all grain batch tasting exactly the same, regardless of the hops used, drinkable but not shareable.

I’ve never brewed extract so I can’t compare notes on that. I evolved my hop schedules over many brews, adjusting for taste, etc. There’s tons of discussion about hop efficiency that I’ve yet to jump into and I doubt I have the best efficiency . Also I’m not trying to distract from the water chemistry discussion as there’s definitely room for me to learn there! Maybe instead of increasing hop weight, add a good 60 min bittering addition and shift those other boil additions to later or in the hop stand (adding at specific wort temps).

 

[redpipe67]

When you were doing extract, were you doing partial boils, cooling the wort, adding to the fermentor and topping off with sterilized water?

I ask that, to ask this: How are you cooling your wort and how long does it take? When I started doing all grain and cooling with an ice bath it would take a couple hours, which I then realized that my original 60 minute hop addition was more like 120 minutes, and my flavor/aroma additions really because 90 minute additions which destroyed any and every chance of me having any distinct flavors other than muddled dingleberries.

Hi dawn_k,
When extract brewing, I used to boil around 3.5 gallons, lose about half a gallon during boil and chill in an ice bath for about 15 minutes or so then top up my fermenter with chilled distilled water to the 5 gallon mark.
Now I’m using an immersion chiller that I place in the boil for the last 10 minutes of the boil to sanitize, the boiled wort is added to my fermenter and chilled in the fermenter, the idea being the hot liquid may kill off anything i may have inadvertently missed when sanitizing with StarSan

 

[redpipe67]

I’ve never brewed extract so I can’t compare notes on that. I evolved my hop schedules over many brews, adjusting for taste, etc. There’s tons of discussion about hop efficiency that I’ve yet to jump into and I doubt I have the best efficiency . Also I’m not trying to distract from the water chemistry discussion as there’s definitely room for me to learn there! Maybe instead of increasing hop weight, add a good 60 min bittering addition and shift those other boil additions to later or in the hop stand (adding at specific wort temps).

Thanks for the suggestions, all greatly appreciated

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I must add that I have brewed many extract beers using similar hop quantities to those I had posted earlier and was getting great results, something I can’t narrow down has every all grain batch tasting exactly the same, regardless of the hops used, drinkable but not shareable.

A number of the water experts talk about adding minerals in the glass (of beer) to 'fine tune' the amount of salt additions. Sorry, no links at the moment- maybe someone here will offer their approach.

 

[redpipe67]

A number of the water experts talk about adding minerals in the glass (of beer) to 'fine tune' the amount of salt additions. Sorry, no links at the moment- maybe someone here will offer their approach.

Hi Brewn, thanks for that great advice, that’s very interesting, do you know if the boil has no effect on these minerals and their effect is the same whether pre mash or post ferment?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

do you know if the boil has no effect on these minerals and their effect is the same whether pre mash or post ferment?

When I do this type of adjustment, I adjust the recipe with "boil" salts rather than "mash" salts.

You've got some "ok, but not good enough to share" beers. Trying adding salts in the glass (using a 'salt solution' and see what happens!

 

[IslandLizard]

the boiled wort is added to my fermenter and chilled in the fermenter,

That's an unusual step in the process. It may work for partial (extract) boils topped up with cold water in the fermenter, dropping the temps to 130F quickly.

But depending on how long it takes to chill that full volume batch, once in the fermenter, that can certainly defy the use or at least change the contribution of late hops and hopstand hops. As long as they stay in hot wort above 140F the extracted oils keep isomerizing (adding bitterness) while losing flavor and aroma in return.

Are you using that IC in your fermenter, then?

 

[redpipe67]

That's an unusual step in the process. It may work for partial (extract) boils topped up with cold water in the fermenter, dropping the temps to 130F quickly.

But depending on how long it takes to chill that full volume batch, once in the fermenter, that can certainly defy the use or at least change the contribution of late hops and hopstand hops. As long as they stay in hot wort above 140F the extracted oils keep isomerizing (adding bitterness) while losing flavor and aroma in return.

Are you using that IC in your fermenter, then?

The wort is dumped through a sieve into the fermenter, removing the amount of hops you would expect to when serving the wort. Once in the fermenter, it takes about 15 minutes to chill to 68, the only difference between cooling in the kettle and cooling in the fermenter would be the amount of time it takes me to dump the kettle into the fermenter.

 

[redpipe67]

I seem to recall somewhere that aerating hot wort was a no no...do you think dumping and serving the hot wort into the fermenter is having a negative effect?

 

[redpipe67]

Seiving not serving as autocorrect seems to like

 

[redpipe67]

So after reviewing all of your valuable feedback, I will be making the following changes to my next brew.
I’m going to use micraftbeer’s water additions suggestion and see how that affects the taste
I’ll be using yeast nutrient, a first for me.
I’ll chill in the kettle and then add this to the fermenter
I’ll be adding my water additions to the strike water, not the
I’m going to change my Lactic Acid for something sold by a HBS instead of Amazon
I’m pretty confident my hops, grain and yeast are not the problem, all are fresh so focus is still on water additions and making changes to processes.

thank you all for your input, I’ll be sure to let you all know how my next one turns out

 

[IslandLizard]

So after reviewing all of your valuable feedback, I will be making the following changes to my next brew.
I’m going to use micraftbeer’s water additions suggestion and see how that affects the taste
I’ll be using yeast nutrient, a first for me.
I’ll chill in the kettle and then add this to the fermenter
I’ll be adding my water additions to the strike water, not the
I’m going to change my Lactic Acid for something sold by a HBS instead of Amazon
I’m pretty confident my hops, grain and yeast are not the problem, all are fresh so focus is still on water additions and making changes to processes.

thank you all for your input, I’ll be sure to let you all know how my next one turns out

Excellent!
A few more thoughts and pointers:

• I use Bru'nWater (free edition is fine) for water calcs. It also teaches you much about the water chemistry as a whole.
• Don't overdo the nutrient. Most beer doesn't need it. I doubt lack of nutrients is your problem.
• Just double check the ingredients (and percentages) in your current Lactic Acid. The 80% "pure" is a weird fraction, unless it means 80% Lactic Acid and 20% water (by weight), making it an 80% (pure) L.A. solution.
• Definitely avoid hot side aeration! That's a big no-no.
• Aerating/oxygenating cool (ferm temp) wort is good, helps the yeast to propagate.
• Once fermentation has begun, eliminate or avoid as much as possible any air/O2 touching your beer, as it will oxidize it, darkening the beer, dulling flavor and aroma. The hoppier the beer, the more havoc oxidation causes.
• Therefore avoid secondaries.

 

[redpipe67]

Fantastic tips IslandLizard, much appreciated

 

[bwible]

I’m not an ace on water chemistry that was mentioned earlier. But if you’re using RO or distilled water, here’s a page out of the Anvil Foundry manual and water chemistry additions they suggest according to type of beer.

 

[redpipe67]

I’m not an ace on water chemistry that was mentioned earlier. But if you’re using RO or distilled water, here’s a page out of the Anvil Foundry manual and water chemistry additions they suggest according to type of beer.

View attachment 689113

That’s awesome, thanks for taking the time to provide that, many thanks bwible.
Bobby asked a question regarding my temp control of the fermentation, that’s something I can’t control at the moment, do any of you feel that using a Kveik yeast would solve the problem I have of fermenting over 68 degrees without being able to bring the temp down...would a Kveik yeast perform once temp lowers passively to the 66-68 range...

thanks

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

But if you’re using RO or distilled water, here’s a page out of the Anvil Foundry manual and water chemistry additions they suggest according to type of beer.

This appears to be similar (and there's nothing wrong with similar) to "Easy Water Treatment Guide" and the four articles that cover the details on pale, amber, brown, and dark beers.