All grain brews have the same "tart" taste - Please help!

[dsaavedra]

I have tried searching this topic and the most common answer is usually that it is tannin extraction from mashing too hot or too high pH. But I'm not convinced this is my problem.

All three of my all grain BIAB batches have all shared this same tart flavor. I don't think it is astringency because it doesn't really make my mouth feel dry and puckery. It is just a kind of gross sour tart flavor. None of these beers have been infected.

At first I thought my mash pH was too high and I was extracting tannins because of my very alkaline tapwater, so on my latest all grain batch (2.5 gallon batch of EW's hause pale ale) I started with 4 gallons of distilled water, added half a tsp of CaCl2 and CaSO4, and included acidulated malt as 2% of my grain bill. According to the EZ water spreadsheet, this should have put my mash pH at 5.36 which, from what I've read, should be acceptable. I don't have a pH meter to check the pH of the mash, I might invest in one though. Is it possible that the acidulated malt didn't have enough acid in it? maybe I will try adding x amount of 88% lactic acid solution

Everything went great on brewday, I hit my mash temp of 152 perfectly, only lost a few degrees during the mash, hit my OG just fine and I was feeling really good about the beer. I pitched a packet of rehydrated Nottingham and I kept the beer at 55-56 degrees throughout the duration of fermentation for a nice clean taste. When I took my FG reading before bottling it had fermented down to 1.008, great. But it had that same exact tart flavor that my other AG batches have had. It is so discouraging because I really thought I had fixed it with my water adjustments.

I have never had an infection and the beer is not simply just "green" because I have some bottles of my second AG batch that I made months ago and they still have the same taste. I would describe the taste as kind of "green" though... anything that can cause a permanent green taste in beer?

All 3 of my AG batches have had this flavor, and all three have been low SRM beers. First was a SMaSH with English pale ale malt and Cascade hops, second batch was Biermunchers Cream of 3 Crops, and the third was EdWorts Hause Pale Ale. Is there something that low SRM beers have in common that can lead to a tart flavor?

I am really bad at describing flavors in general, but I would say that this tastes very tart, green, almost sour, and just tastes gross, doesn't even taste like beer. The taste is somewhat reminiscent of, but not exactly the same as the taste you get when you drink OJ after brushing your teeth. Just gross flavor.

I have some bottles of my second AG batch and this most recent one that I am going to take to my LHBS to have them taste it and see if they have any suggestions. Does anybody here have any suggestions? Let me know if there is any other information regarding my brews that you may want to know, I will answer all questions to the best of my ability.

 

[Gavin C]

That low of an FG on EDwort's Haus Ale would suggest a much lower mash temperature than 152 as outlined in the recipe.

My SG was 1.052 and FG was 1.011

Yours is 3 points lower which might make this crisp dry ale "tart" as you describe. Perhaps calibration of your thermometer or use of a second thermometer are in order to eliminate temperature errors prior to adjusting your water chemistry.

I am no authority on any of this so a generous pinch of salt comes free with this post.

 

[dsaavedra]

My temp had dropped to 149 by the time the mash was finished, and when I stirred after the mash the temp was at 143. So I suspect that's where my low FG came from. OG was 1.048 (slightly low OG because I ended up with more wort than I had planned for, just about 2.75 gallons vs the 2.5 gallons I planned for. When I changed my batch size to 2.75 gallons in Brewer's Friend, my OG of 1.048 seemed reasonable). My other AG brews have had FG in the range of 1.012 to 1.010 and still had this tart flavor.

The thermometer I use is the KM14http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/km14-high-temp-pocket-digital-thermometer.html and I calibrated it using a slurry of crushed ice before I began my mash. This thermometer has always seemed to be pretty accurate to me, it measured very close to 32.0 degrees in the ice water before I hit the calibrate button. But then again, I don't have anything to compare it to.

 

[Gavin C]

That is a significant loss of heat from your mash and would be what I would focus on prior to the more complex water additions. It seems like you are doing your homework in that respect. I have decent water so I can't speak to that I'm afraid. Vast gaps in my knowledge there.

What are you using to control your mash temperatures? My post might give you some ideas if you are not already insulating. Check it out.

 

[dsaavedra]

I insulated my first two BIAB batches by bungee cording an old sleeping bag around the kettle. I insulated my third BIAB batch by bungee cording an old comforter around it. I don't recall losing as much heat with my first two BIAB batches, but I don't have as good of notes for those ones (I kind of remember actually gaining heat on one of them, maybe because I left the kettle on the burner after I turned it off but it was still warm).

On my third BIAB batch, the bag I was using (really just a big piece of voile fabric, not an actual bag) was draped outside of the kettle and was actually wicking up wort and soaking the comforter which was then dripping on the floor. Maybe this cooled down my mash some, kind of like wrapping a wet towel around the fermenter in a swamp cooler set up? I plan on improving my bag before my next batch so this doesn't happen again.

I checked out your post and it is really good! Very clear and the pictures are a big help to illustrate what's going on. It looks like our processes are very similar. I too let the bag drain into another pot before squeezing all that I can out of it.

I find that my wort is really cloudy, even more so after adding the wort I squeezed from the bag. Do you think this could be a source of my strange flavor? I assume the cloudiness of the wort is due to extremely fine grain particles suspended in the wort, which would obviously then get boiled and possibly contribute some bad flavor? Just spitting out ideas here... If anyone actually knows something about this particular concern I'd love to hear about it.

 

[Gavin C]

I insulated my first two BIAB batches by bungee cording an old sleeping bag around the kettle. I insulated my third BIAB batch by bungee cording an old comforter around it. I don't recall losing as much heat with my first two BIAB batches, but I don't have as good of notes for those ones (I kind of remember actually gaining heat on one of them, maybe because I left the kettle on the burner after I turned it off but it was still warm).

On my third BIAB batch, the bag I was using (really just a big piece of voile fabric, not an actual bag) was draped outside of the kettle and was actually wicking up wort and soaking the comforter which was then dripping on the floor. Maybe this cooled down my mash some, kind of like wrapping a wet towel around the fermenter in a swamp cooler set up? I plan on improving my bag before my next batch so this doesn't happen again.

I checked out your post and it is really good! Very clear and the pictures are a big help to illustrate what's going on. It looks like our processes are very similar. I too let the bag drain into another pot before squeezing all that I can out of it.

I find that my wort is really cloudy, even more so after adding the wort I squeezed from the bag. Do you think this could be a source of my strange flavor? I assume the cloudiness of the wort is due to extremely fine grain particles suspended in the wort, which would obviously then get boiled and possibly contribute some bad flavor? Just spitting out ideas here... If anyone actually knows something about this particular concern I'd love to hear about it.

Can't say I've ever experienced the wicking of wort to the insulating medium. I must not have been clear in my post. I don not allow the bag to drain to another pot. I place it on top of one only for disposal. No additional drainage of a volume greater than 10cc is ever noted at this time.

I think you might need to re-evaluate your temperature measures and wort homogenization methods prior to temperature reading. It is not possible for your wort to gain temperature unless you are supplying heat, intentionally or inadvertently.

If your wort is wicking to your insulation as you describe that introduces a whole host of variables including but not limited to loss of wort volume, temperature loss and potential introduction of chemicals from the insulation.

I do not experience a cloudy wort as you describe.

Below is an image after the saccarification rest.

 

[Bobbybob]

What are you fermenting in? It sounds like a lactic infection one of my buddy's had a few months back.

 

[dsaavedra]

What are you fermenting in? It sounds like a lactic infection one of my buddy's had a few months back.

Better bottles, thoroughly cleaned with Oxi after each use and thoroughly StarSan'd before each use. Never had an infection in anything I've ever brewed, including several extract batches in between these AG batches. Extract batches taste fine, only the AG batches have this flavor, and it is the same in all three AG batches.

I wonder if squeezing my bag is introducing a whole lot of very fine grain particulates into my wort to be boiled, and maybe they are the contributor. A lot of people religiously squeeze the hell out of their bags though so maybe not. This is worth investigating, maybe in a 1 gallon batch. I plan on doing 1 gallon batches until I get this issue resolved.

 

[chickypad]

Drinking OG after brushing your teeth reminds me of vomit taste. So 3 batches in a row now that have a gross, vomit, sour taste that makes them not even taste like beer? Sure sounds like an infection. At any rate, missing your mash temp a few degrees or OG/FG a few points is not going to result in this. Water is usually another good thought for recurrent off flavors, but that should have been corrected by doing the RO water + water primer instructions like you did. If I understand correctly this is with different yeasts and all good fermentation temp control? I can't imagine it's a recipe issue with a SMaSH and two others that are certainly well-vetted. I would also highly doubt it has anything to do with squeezing the bag given the number of us out there who do. My wort's pretty cloudy initially but clear after chilling. A conundrum. Hopefully the LHBS guys will be able to help, though that can be hit or miss IME.

 

[dfhar]

It sounds like an infection to me.

Make an extract batch and see if you get the same result. Your equipment could have some lingering bugs that keep infecting your batches.

 

[dsaavedra]

Drinking OG after brushing your teeth reminds me of vomit taste. So 3 batches in a row now that have a gross, vomit, sour taste that makes them not even taste like beer? Sure sounds like an infection. At any rate, missing your mash temp a few degrees or OG/FG a few points is not going to result in this. Water is usually another good thought for recurrent off flavors, but that should have been corrected by doing the RO water + water primer instructions like you did. If I understand correctly this is with different yeasts and all good fermentation temp control? I can't imagine it's a recipe issue with a SMaSH and two others that are certainly well-vetted. I would also highly doubt it has anything to do with squeezing the bag given the number of us out there who do. My wort's pretty cloudy initially but clear after chilling. A conundrum. Hopefully the LHBS guys will be able to help, though that can be hit or miss IME.

Haha maybe it isn't QUITE as bad as OJ and toothpaste. But it has the same kind of tart flavor and bad aftertaste, nothing like vomit though. Like I said I am very bad at describing flavors, something I need to work on. Imagine the greenest tasting beer possible except the greenness doesn't go away with age. It's kind of like that.

My first two BIAB batches were fermented with US05 and the third one was fermented with Nottingham, all kept in appropriate temperature ranges in my swamp cooler. All have the same flavor.

And I reallllllllly don't think it is an infection - none of these beers looked infected at any point in the process, some of them have been in bottles for months and show no signs of anything weird growing in them or over carbonation or anything. They just don't taste good. Plus I have made several extract batches before, in-between, and after these AG batches, using all of the same equipment, and none of the extract batches have had anything close to this flavor. So that seems to indicate to me that it is a problem with my mash, but I just don't know what the specific problem is!

I'm going to look into pH meters, I think having one might help me diagnose this problem because based on what I've been reading, it sounds like a mash pH in the wrong range (too high usually) would contribute to this kind of flavor. But I really thought I would have fixed the pH problem by following the water primer instructions so I am just left confused and discouraged.

 

[chickypad]

Hmm, so same fermenters and everything and all the extract batches are fine - that does seem to point to something with the mash. It will be interesting to see what your actual pH readings are, but I agree it seems like it would be hard to be way out of range following the primer instructions. I have gotten a sort of fruity-tart taste with 05 before (maybe it's the peach flavor folks talk about?), to the point where I rarely use it anymore as I seem to get better attenuation and overall more neutral taste with 1056 even though I know they are supposed to be the same strain. I suppose that might seem like "greenness". It's pretty subtle though and doesn't completely ruin the beer IME, and I've never gotten it with Notty. Hope you get it figured out, that is frustrating.

 

[The542]

Have you tried getting your grain/hops from somewhere else? Have you tried just letting your bag drain w/o squeezing it? These are two control options I would try. Can you taste this off flavor in the wort?

 

[dsaavedra]

Have you tried getting your grain/hops from somewhere else? Have you tried just letting your bag drain w/o squeezing it? These are two control options I would try. Can you taste this off flavor in the wort?

These are two things I have not tried to control for. It would probably be worth a shot though. All of the ingredients for these batches came from the LHBS, and I crushed the grain there also. I noticed what I thought to be a lot of very fine flour coming out with my crushed grain, but I don't have a frame of reference to what is a normal amount of flour. My first AG batch I even double crushed the grains because I had read this was an okay thing to do with BIAB. Would the amount of flour in my crushed grains contribute anything weird to the mash? I read that if the husks are really shredded up it can add tannins.

I also have not tried letting the bag drain without squeezing, but this is something I am definitely going to try on my next batch. It will be too bad if squeeing the bag is the source of my problem because I usually get quite a bit of wort out of it when I squeeze, it would be a shame to waste it - although extra wort is no good when the finished beer tastes like crap.

I don't have a tendency to taste wort because I don't really like the way it tastes in general. I do remember tasting the wort on my Cream of 3 Crops batch and I could detect this flavor. I can even smell it when the beer is fermenting and after I pour myself a glass of the finished beer.

I wouldn't say this flavor is peachy at all and it definitely ruins the beer.

 

[dsaavedra]

Is astringency something that would make itself very obvious? Like I would know it was astringency right off the bat? I've read astringency is more of a dry puckery mouthfeel, and I have experienced that elsewhere, like biting into unripe fruit, some red wines, etc. I don't think my beer really has that going on, though maybe a little bit. My beer seems to have a flavor issue.

 

[The542]

These are two things I have not tried to control for. It would probably be worth a shot though. All of the ingredients for these batches came from the LHBS, and I crushed the grain there also. I noticed what I thought to be a lot of very fine flour coming out with my crushed grain, but I don't have a frame of reference to what is a normal amount of flour. My first AG batch I even double crushed the grains because I had read this was an okay thing to do with BIAB. Would the amount of flour in my crushed grains contribute anything weird to the mash? I read that if the husks are really shredded up it can add tannins.

I also have not tried letting the bag drain without squeezing, but this is something I am definitely going to try on my next batch. It will be too bad if squeeing the bag is the source of my problem because I usually get quite a bit of wort out of it when I squeeze, it would be a shame to waste it - although extra wort is no good when the finished beer tastes like crap.

I don't have a tendency to taste wort because I don't really like the way it tastes in general. I do remember tasting the wort on my Cream of 3 Crops batch and I could detect this flavor. I can even smell it when the beer is fermenting and after I pour myself a glass of the finished beer.

I wouldn't say this flavor is peachy at all and it definitely ruins the beer.

I mention changing where you get your grain simply because there could be an issue with their grain. I was going to ask if you buy bulk grain.

If you can taste this off flavor in the wort, I would say it's narrowed to something in your mash. Did you get this taste before you squeezed your bag?

I don't believe your crush is the issue, I mill my grain pretty tight (read, a good bit of flour) and have seen others do the same with no ill effects.

 

[dsaavedra]

I mention changing where you get your grain simply because there could be an issue with their grain. I was going to ask if you buy bulk grain.

If you can taste this off flavor in the wort, I would say it's narrowed to something in your mash. Did you get this taste before you squeezed your bag?

I don't believe your crush is the issue, I mill my grain pretty tight (read, a good bit of flour) and have seen others do the same with no ill effects.

No I don't buy grain in bulk, but I intend to once I get this issue sorted out. All these batches I have just bought however much grain the recipe called for. I imagine a lotttt of people would be having this same issue if the grain was the problem because my LHBS serves pretty much all of central Maryland.

I have not sampled my wort before and after squeezing, that is a really good idea. I actually don't think I have even tasted my wort pre-boil. I think next time I will sample the wort after just draining the bag and then squeeze the bag into another container and sample that. I probably won't add the squeezed wort back into the boil kettle just to keep my experimental control and narrow down variables.

Does the flour make its way into your wort when you go to boil it? I wonder if this might contribute flavor issues.

 

[Magnus314]

I would bet it is the water.

Try a dark beer - porter or stout - and see if it turns out good.

If so, it's probably a mash pH or minerals issue.

 

[dsaavedra]

I would bet it is the water.

Try a dark beer - porter or stout - and see if it turns out good.

If so, it's probably a mash pH or minerals issue.

This is my intuition too. But I was convinced that by using distilled water and adding CaCl2 and CaSO4 as well as using acidulated malt in my grain bill I would have resolved pH/mineral issues. EZ water spreadsheet said that my mash pH should have been 5.36. This is why I'm stumped.

Does the amount of acid in acidulated malt vary by manufacturer or even by batch? Does it degrade over time? This is the description of the acidulated malt I used from my LHBS website:

"Sold per pound. Weyermann® acidulated malt contains high levels of lactic acid. Used to adjust pH without using lactobacillus or doing a sour mash. 1.7-3.2L. pH 3,4 - 3,6 Use 1 - 5 % (10% for sour styles) "​

It says ph 3.4 - 3.6 so I guess it does vary. Maybe next time I will pick up a bottle of 88% lactic acid solution to acidify my mash so that way I am using a known concentration instead of the apparently variable acidity of the acid malt.

 

[mwbrewer]

One other thing to look at is your water to grain ratio during mashing. Using a higher volume of water during mashing may extract more tannins from your grains(at least that was recently stated in an issue of BYO, I'd have to look up the exact issue and article at this point...) IMHO there are just a load of factors that could be coming into play here with this

 

[The_Bishop]

The higher volume of water=more tannins has been disproved by legions of BIABers.

I really wish people would stop parroting incorrect info.

 

[joety]

I had similar issues with my RIMS system that I didn't have with the coolers.

I solved the problem with a combination of

• Reduce the amount of sparge water (fly sparging) so as not to drop below 1.010.
• Switch to RO water.
• Slow down the recirculation rate to where I can still maintain the desired temps, but no more.

You may think its not tannins but I suspect it is.

 

[dsaavedra]

I had similar issues with my RIMS system that I didn't have with the coolers.

I solved the problem with a combination of

• Reduce the amount of sparge water (fly sparging) so as not to drop below 1.010.
• Switch to RO water.
• Slow down the recirculation rate to where I can still maintain the desired temps, but no more.

You may think its not tannins but I suspect it is.

Tannins seems the most likely issue I just thought that I took steps to prevent that, but it is very possible that I didn't account for something. How would your solutions translate to BIAB?

 

[m00ps]

Was the flavor present at bottling? I had a very similar issue with a lot fo my earlier brews. Tasted fine at bottling, but after a month or so in the bottle, started to get tart (not full on sour) and metallic. And not pleasant tart like with brett

I think I solved my problems by optimizing by bottling regimen. I got a bottle tree to keep stuff out of the bottles and make things go faster. I try to minimize the amount of time between when they are sanitized to when they get capped. I also use fresh starsan each time. Havent had the issue since.

 

[dsaavedra]

Was the flavor present at bottling? I had a very similar issue with a lot fo my earlier brews. Tasted fine at bottling, but after a month or so in the bottle, started to get tart (not full on sour) and metallic. And not pleasant tart like with brett

I think I solved my problems by optimizing by bottling regimen. I got a bottle tree to keep stuff out of the bottles and make things go faster. I try to minimize the amount of time between when they are sanitized to when they get capped. I also use fresh starsan each time. Havent had the issue since.

Unfortunately, yes the flavor was present at at bottling. That's actually the only time I have gotten to taste my latest batch, as it is still conditioning in the bottles. I'm glad you were able to solve your issue with an optimized bottling procedure!

 

[m00ps]

hmm...the other thing I did at that time was replace all my transfering lines, bottling bucket, and siphoning equipment. I got some of this special anti-microbial tubing. Its great and super thick
http://morebeer.com/products/ultra-barrier-silver-antimicrobial-pvc-free-beer-tubing-316-id-foot.html

 

[dsaavedra]

I just opened a bottle that I stuck in the fridge last night. It is undercarbed (flat actually, but the bottle was only half full... I got a nice hiss when I opened it so I imagine the properly filled bottles would be carbed) but I am really trying to pay attention to the flavors here. I am going to write them down as they come to me.

First and most noticeable is just an overall blandness. I don't taste malt and I don't taste hops just a nasty amalgamation of the two. In addition to the blandness, I would venture to say it tastes a little bit grainy I think. The longer I let it sit in my mouth and slosh it around the more the tartness/greenness comes out, especially on the sides of my tongue towards the back of my mouth (I just looked up the taste bud map, which I am aware has been proven to be a misconception but is based on some sensitivity to certain tastes, and the areas I pick up this tartness correspond with the areas on the map that pick up sour flavors). Its not particularly dry/puckery feeling like biting into an unripe fruit but I maybe feel it a tiny bit. The aftertaste that lingers is bland/green, very unpleasant. I don't quite know what a "vegetal" taste would be like, but maybe that is present? Not really sure on this one as I haven't really experienced anything that I would easily be able to identify as vegetal. I also don't know what DMS tastes like (aside from creamed corn, but I don't know what that tastes like either - regarding DMS, I didn't get a very vigorous boil on this particular beer but on my other two AG batches I did get a vigorous boil, and all three tasted the same, so I'm not sure if DMS would be too much of a concern).

So the flavor highlights are:

• Bland - can't pick out malts or hops
• Slightly grainy taste
• Tart/green on the sides of my tongue toward the back
• Bland/green aftertaste that lingers
• Possibly vegetal - I don't really know what vegetal tastes like and this may just be a combination of the blandness/greenness

 

[joety]

So definitely "tart", not "bitter"? ... and by "bitter" I mean in a thoroughly unpleasant way, not the kind of bitter your boil hops create

 

[dsaavedra]

So definitely "tart", not "bitter"? ... and by "bitter" I mean in a thoroughly unpleasant way, not the kind of bitter your boil hops create

I suppose it could be a thoroughly unpleasant bitterness. Certainly nothing like a nice hop bitterness. It also isn't a very sharp sour taste like you would expect from something that is tart.

Looks like I'm not alone in my difficulty distinguishing flavors: http://www.sensorysociety.org/knowledge/sspwiki/Pages/Sour-Bitter Confusion.aspx

 

[Yooper]

One thing I've noticed when using spreadsheets is that EZ water is ALWAYS wrong, and estimates far higher than actual mash pH, in some cases it was .3. If that is the case for you, that would definitely explain a tartness. Maybe try running it through brewer's friend or bru'n water (both free, but bru'n water has a learning curve) to see if it agrees until you get a pH meter.

A low mash pH could explain "tart" and "bland". I don't think grainy or bitter, though.

 

[dsaavedra]

One thing I've noticed when using spreadsheets is that EZ water is ALWAYS wrong, and estimates far higher than actual mash pH, in some cases it was .3. If that is the case for you, that would definitely explain a tartness. Maybe try running it through brewer's friend or bru'n water (both free, but bru'n water has a learning curve) to see if it agrees until you get a pH meter.

A low mash pH could explain "tart" and "bland". I don't think grainy or bitter, though.

I just put all my info into the brewer's friend advanced water chemistry calculator and (assuming I did everything right) it said my mash pH should have been 5.30, compared to the 5.36 that EZ water gave me. Isn't some thing like 5.2 ideal? Is 5.30 so high that it would start creating the flavors I'm experiencing?

 

[philipCT]

I just put all my info into the brewer's friend advanced water chemistry calculator and (assuming I did everything right) it said my mash pH should have been 5.30, compared to the 5.36 that EZ water gave me. Isn't some thing like 5.2 ideal? Is 5.30 so high that it would start creating the flavors I'm experiencing?

No.

 

[philipCT]

Two things that pop out at me from your previous posts:

(1) fermenting Nottingham at 55 degrees? Isn't that an unusually low temp for an ale yeast? That yeast is usually fermented at something closer to 68 if I'm not mistaken. Not sure how this would impact the flavor.

(2) distilled water? I've actually never heard of anyone using distilled water for brewing. I've heard of using bottled spring water a lot. But as I understand it, distilled water will tend to absorb CO2 after distillation until it achieves a pH of something around 5.8. Even that could easily be accommodated using the proper water chemistry, as long as you input the correct starting pH of your water in the spreadsheet.

Per Yooper, I use the Bru'nWater spreadsheet with good success in predicting mash pH, but I got substantial help figuring it out (right here on HBT, of course) when I was first starting to use it.

So, if I were in your position, I would suspect water the most, and might use bottled spring water on the next batch.

I also use a pH meter, and I've found it to be a real help. You seem to have a lot of things pretty dialed in. I'd would recommend a pH meter just to check the in-flight numbers, and give you a shot at a last minute adjustment.

 

[chickypad]

Most sources recommend something like 5.3 to 5.6 for mash room temp pH range. I find EZ water always overestimates my true mash pH by about .05-.1, while brewer's friend is usually extremely close. I tend to aim for about 5.4 on brewer's friend with the calculations, then check the actual with a pH meter. You should have been fine in that general range, though I guess we will see when you get your meter.

 

[Yooper]

I just put all my info into the brewer's friend advanced water chemistry calculator and (assuming I did everything right) it said my mash pH should have been 5.30, compared to the 5.36 that EZ water gave me. Isn't some thing like 5.2 ideal? Is 5.30 so high that it would start creating the flavors I'm experiencing?

No, you're good. 5.3-5.5 is generally perfect for all beers.

I don't offer this as a rule, as I've had tons of people offer to send me bad beer, but if you want to send me one, I could try it and see what I think is going on. I'm no miracle worker, but I am a BJCP judge and have judged at the National Homebrew Competitions.

Or, do you have a homebrew club where you can ask them? An experienced judge or even a very experienced brewer may be just want you need to see what the issue is.

Have you used other yeast strains, at different temperatures?

Edit- and distilled or RO water is perfect! Don't change that, especially for light colored beers!

 

[dsaavedra]

No, you're good. 5.3-5.5 is generally perfect for all beers.

I don't offer this as a rule, as I've had tons of people offer to send me bad beer, but if you want to send me one, I could try it and see what I think is going on. I'm no miracle worker, but I am a BJCP judge and have judged at the National Homebrew Competitions.

Or, do you have a homebrew club where you can ask them? An experienced judge or even a very experienced brewer may be just want you need to see what the issue is.

Have you used other yeast strains, at different temperatures?

Edit- and distilled or RO water is perfect! Don't change that, especially for light colored beers!

I may take you up on that Yooper. I am planning on bringing some of this beer to my LHBS to see if they have any suggestions, but I haven't been going there long enough to really get to know the people who work there and know if they would be of any help.

Regarding yeast strains, my first two AG I used US05 and kept the temps in the low 60's, and this most recent one I used Nottingham and kept the temp in the mid to upper 50's (I've read that Nottingham does well at low temperatures). All of the beers have the same qualities I described above.

I was sure that using a reputable recipe, using distilled water and following the water primer suggestions with CaCl2, CaSO4, and acid malt additions would have had me brewing pretty decent beer but it only left me disappointed and very confused.

 

[chickypad]

Heck if Yooper offered I would take her up on that! LHBS's can be hit or miss IME. There is one guy at mine who seems to really know his stuff, then I've heard some questionable advice being given from others there. I will say that the times I got that sort of fruity tart thing with 05 it was fermenting low 60's. I would think Notty would be okay low, but I usually ferment that around 60-62.

 

[dsaavedra]

Heck if Yooper offered I would take her up on that! LHBS's can be hit or miss IME. There is one guy at mine who seems to really know his stuff, then I've heard some questionable advice being given from others there. I will say that the times I got that sort of fruity tart thing with 05 it was fermenting low 60's. I would think Notty would be okay low, but I usually ferment that around 60-62.

Yeah, that is what I'm afraid of. Some guys there have given me advice that contradicts general consensuses found here. One guy told me I didn't need to make a starter with liquid yeast for example. Still, it won't hurt to bring some bottles in to the shop and see what they can come up with. Even if they can just describe the taste better than I can that would help. We will see what Yooper can come up with too

I really hope to get this issue resolved. I am just itching to get out there and brew all these great AG recipes that are everywhere, I am starting to feel somewhat limited with extract.

 

[riderkb]

You might try a batch without the acid malt. I brewed loads of good beer before messing with mash pH. It took several batches of tart beer for me to realize that the typical 3% rule is way too much acid malt for my taste. I prefer 1%.

 

[bigdongsr94]

All the water and pH suggestions I believe are debunked by the op using distilled. I have just experienced the plague known as lacto. I don't see anything in my beer or have reason suggest it's there other than the tart sour taste. Raw malt grain has lacto in it. I am now keeping my grains in the garage out if my brew room and fermentation area. I ditched all plastic for new. Now leave starsan in fermenter until pitch time which is now immediately after chill. Tannins and astringency are much different, almost bitter but not in a good way. Mash temp is not going to be serious like this issue. I say lacto.

Oops, I missed a while page of responses.