All grain brews have the same "tart" taste - Please help!

[Radboud]

I have the same problem, a tartness that persists after ageing, sometimes a weak body etc.

First I thought this was caused by fermenting too hot using Notty but I also had the exact same taste in a batch of Belgian Blond using yeast harvested from a couple of La Chouffe bottles which should not have this taste component in the low 70s.
I was also ready to blame my water chemistry but the things about slipping mash temp would also make sense. I do AG, I batch sparge in a 5g cooler. Usually strike temps are spot on but I haven't really done anything up to now to check what is happening during the mash, just left it alone for 60 mins after which I drain.

 

[dsaavedra]

I had the chance to taste a beer from a local brewery (Patuxent Pale Ale, from Mully's brewery) over the weekend and I will be damned if it doesn't taste nearly identical to the pale ales that I have brewed AG. I couldn't believe it when I took the first sip. This got me thinking that if a brewery can produce and sell a beer that tastes like this, maybe there isn't a problem with it after all, it is just a kind of bland recipe that I don't happen to like.

All of my AG beers (except for the ESB) have been pretty similar, very pale colored, simple malt bills and not a lot of hops. Maybe this just doesn't make for a beer that I like? I really thought I would have liked EdWort's Haus Pale Ale though, given its massive popularity. But then again, taste preferences are truly individual. This would back up my LHBS claims that there wasn't much wrong with the two beers I brought in for them to try.

Nothing conclusive, just something that got me thinking. Still looking forward to giving this ESB a taste to see if it was truly just a style thing I didn't like, not anything fundamentally wrong with the beer.

My AG journey has been fun but super frustrating :cross:

 

[jackwhite]

I find myself in the same situation. However I make my own recipes and find what I get fails to match my expectations. also I have been looking into mash thickness and starting to find that mash thickness may not affect fermentability but does impact style. My beers lately have this thin sour tang that I really find distasteful. My wife thinks they are fine. I usually us 1.3 quarts as my thickness. I plan on using 1.0 quart mash thickness and hopefully this will better meet my expectations.

 

[The_Bishop]

I don't think that mash thickness is going to make a big difference.

I have done beers back to back, one at 1.25 qt/pound and one at 1.5 qt/pound, and saw no perceptible difference in the two, except the larger thermal mass of the thinner mash held temperature better. It was also easier to make sure there were no dough balls.

 

[dsaavedra]

I don't think that mash thickness is going to make a big difference.

I have done beers back to back, one at 1.25 qt/pound and one at 1.5 qt/pound, and saw no perceptible difference in the two, except the larger thermal mass of the thinner mash held temperature better. It was also easier to make sure there were no dough balls.

What about when you get into the 2-3 qt/lb range that is common with full volume mashes?

 

[McKnuckle]

What about when you get into the 2-3 qt/lb range that is common with full volume mashes?

If there was any issue with this in general, then people wouldn't be so satisfied with BIAB. As long as your mash pH is given appropriate attention and adjustment (if necessary), then the larger amount of water-to-grist ratio doesn't matter in terms of flavor and overall quality.

 

[dfhar]

A full volume mash isn't 2 quarts per pound, it's more like 4+ quarts per pound.

There can be significant pH issues with full volume mashes, especially when brewing light colored beers with alkaline water; it can easily exceed 6.0. I believe that this is the underlying cause behind some of the low efficiency/dull malt flavor complaints that pop up from time to time regarding BIAB. Darker beers or beers with lots of crystal malt are far less prone to these problems. Even a 100% pilsner malt BIAB beer only requires a little lactic acid to put it in the right range, but it's still very important.

 

[dsaavedra]

So I moved the fermenter to a warmer room several days ago, the beer temp has been about 67 degrees since then, and I have been swirling the jug every day or so to try and rouse up some yeast but my gravity hasn't dropped. It still reads 1.041 on my refractometer which when corrected for alcohol presence corresponds to 1.028.

I'm not sure if this is just a stuck fermentation since I fermented it so cool at the beginning (although it didn't look like the yeast were having any trouble fermenting) or if my high and variable mash temps just left me with a pretty unfermentable beer... I guess the only thing left to do is keep it warm and wait.

 

[chickypad]

A full volume mash isn't 2 quarts per pound, it's more like 4+ quarts per pound..

My full volume mashes are 2.25 to 2.7 qt per lb generally. I agree it would be the pH that would be the issue with off flavors, not the thickness itself. Sorry you're still frustrated OP. With these elusive problems I'm always thinking water, but it still seems like we don't really know what we're troubleshooting. Undrinkable vs. not really anything wrong with them - hard to know what we're looking for.

 

[dfhar]

You're right, full volume mash thickness will depend on other factors such as gravity and efficiency. I was assuming an OG of 1.050 with an 80% mash efficiency and a 90 minute boil, none of which need be the case here.

 

[chickypad]

You're right, full volume mash thickness will depend on other factors such as gravity and efficiency. I was assuming an OG of 1.050 with an 80% mash efficiency and a 90 minute boil, none of which need be the case here.

True, and BIAB'ing you lose less about 30% less water to absorption. I get around 76-77% efficiency but I rarely brew anything below about 1.052. The one 1.038 beer I did this year I see now was about 4 qt per lb.

 

[dsaavedra]

But it still seems like we don't really know what we're troubleshooting. Undrinkable vs. not really anything wrong with them - hard to know what we're looking for.

I know the problem all too well and I feel really bad that I am asking you guys for help when I can't really pinpoint what I find wrong with the beer.....

It is pretty much undrinkable to me, I don't like it at all. But the LHBS people said that there didn't seem to be anything obviously wrong with it, and it tasted just like that local brewery's pale ale, so maybe there is nothing wrong with it, I just really don't like it.

Still, I don't see how I could find a recipe that gets so much praise here undrinkable, which makes me think I did something wrong.

 

[MaltedBayerl]

I'm having issues with all of my lighter beers having the same off taste. I recently read and reread several things about water chemistry and I'm convinced that my highly alkaline water is to blame. I hadn't been adjusting my water at all and according to calculations, my mash pH was probably around 6 most of the time. Everything else I'm doing seems to be good, standard practice so it almost has to be the water. I bought some lactic acid that I used last time but I haven't tasted the results yet. Trying to understand water chemistry is frustrating, but I think I'm almost, sort of, just barely starting to get the gist of the basics.

 

[McKnuckle]

Still, I don't see how I could find a recipe that gets so much praise here undrinkable, which makes me think I did something wrong.

But it's still possible. I brewed another famously popular homebrew recipe and didn't really like it, even though there were no technical issues with the brew.

Why not pick a commercial beer that you definitely like, and brew a clone recipe of that?

 

[McKnuckle]

I'm convinced that my highly alkaline water is to blame. I hadn't been adjusting my water at all and according to calculations, my mash pH was probably around 6 most of the time...I bought some lactic acid that I used last time but I haven't tasted the results yet.

Ditto. High alkalinity and lighter beers can product a very unpleasant taste. This plagued my first 10 brews before I finally sucked it up and had my water analyzed.

Before resorting just to lactic acid in order to bring down mash pH, find out the mineral content of your water. Adding gypsum (for SO4), CaCl (for Ca), and Epsom (for Mg) will also lower pH. That way you add beneficial mineral content and kill two birds with one stone. Lactic acid in larger amounts is supposedly perceptible in the taste.

 

[dsaavedra]

But it's still possible. I brewed another famously popular homebrew recipe and didn't really like it, even though there were no technical issues with the brew.

Why not pick a commercial beer that you definitely like, and brew a clone recipe of that?

This is the plan... Thinking of trying a SNPA clone next or maybe an IPA like DFH60. I see Yooper and BM have some popular clones of these beers - any suggestions for other good clone recipes?

 

[AndMan3030]

I'd say its an infection. they can be subtle.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Im having the exact same problem, except I have a ph meter so I know my ph is fine. So frustrating.

I have a three vessel Single tier. I went from batch sparging to biab to eliminate variables and im still getting it. Im now brewing a stove top small batch with no copper immersion chiller to see if that's it.

 

[user 197168]

I too am having the same problem. I've probably done about 40 BIAB brews (after along stint with extract and specialty grain) and I am only now having this issue. I too have a copper immersion chiller, that, I have to admit, hasn't been getting as well cleaned as it used to.

I also now have a tap on my brew pot, which I didn't before. That said, it still doesn't add up. I have had two sour beers intermittently (very similar taste). I wish I could narrow it down.

 

[Radboud]

FWIW, I was able to narrow my specific problem down to yeast. I only get this tartness when I use a British strain such as Nottingham. MJ M07 gave me the same tartness. It might be some other variable (such as water mineral content) interacting with these yeasts but when I use US-05 or a Belgian yeast I do not have it at all (or when it does happen it quickly mellows out).

 

[brewbama]

I had a "weird" taste I resolved with a stainless fermenter a while back. I guess there was an issue with the plastic buckets I was using.

 

[clevefails]

Had similar problem turned out to be my water would not rinse the ozyclean away.filter my water now and no problems for a year now

 

[TheMadKing]

I agree that what you're describing sounds like an infection, but you've repeatedly said you've never had an infection. Are you basing that on the fact that you've never seen a pellicle? Because not all infections will make one, especially at lower temps.

The two chemicals that seem to best match what you're describing are acetaldehyde and Buteryc Acid.

From BeerandBrewing.com

Certain yeast strains, such as American lager yeast (White Labs WLP840) produce more acetaldehyde than others, and indeed, a slight suggestion of green apple can be an appropriate component of light American lager styles. In most styles, however, perceptible green apple is considered a flaw. The best ways to avoid acetaldehyde in your homebrewing are to

Maintain flawless sanitation practices.
Pitch an appropriate amount of yeast.
Fully oxygenate wort at pitching.
Avoid racking beer off the yeast trub before fermentation is complete.
Avoid introducing oxygen into your beer after fermentation.
Keeping young beer in contact with a healthy population of yeast encourages re-absorption of acetaldehyde and can go a long way toward reducing this unwanted compound. So stay patient, and wait a few days after reaching terminal gravity before you rack that beer to secondary.

Butyric is an off-flavour that can occur in beer, it is generally perceived as baby sick, rancid or putrid flavour. Caused mainly by bacteria either during the wort production phase of brewing or in sugar syrups. It can also be produced by bacteria when beer become spoiled once it’s been packaged.

Butyric acid tastes like puke, straight up puke... There is no mistaking this one
Acetaldehyde can be more subtle and tastes tart like green apples, and is desirable is very small quantities in light beers. My money is on this... So maybe you are packaging too early?

EDIT: Sorry OP I didn't notice the age of this thread until after I posted... if you've already ruled all this out, disregard

 

[dsaavedra]

I agree that what you're describing sounds like an infection, but you've repeatedly said you've never had an infection. Are you basing that on the fact that you've never seen a pellicle? Because not all infections will make one, especially at lower temps.

The two chemicals that seem to best match what you're describing are acetaldehyde and Buteryc Acid.

From BeerandBrewing.com

Certain yeast strains, such as American lager yeast (White Labs WLP840) produce more acetaldehyde than others, and indeed, a slight suggestion of green apple can be an appropriate component of light American lager styles. In most styles, however, perceptible green apple is considered a flaw. The best ways to avoid acetaldehyde in your homebrewing are to

Maintain flawless sanitation practices.
Pitch an appropriate amount of yeast.
Fully oxygenate wort at pitching.
Avoid racking beer off the yeast trub before fermentation is complete.
Avoid introducing oxygen into your beer after fermentation.
Keeping young beer in contact with a healthy population of yeast encourages re-absorption of acetaldehyde and can go a long way toward reducing this unwanted compound. So stay patient, and wait a few days after reaching terminal gravity before you rack that beer to secondary.

Butyric is an off-flavour that can occur in beer, it is generally perceived as baby sick, rancid or putrid flavour. Caused mainly by bacteria either during the wort production phase of brewing or in sugar syrups. It can also be produced by bacteria when beer become spoiled once it’s been packaged.

Butyric acid tastes like puke, straight up puke... There is no mistaking this one
Acetaldehyde can be more subtle and tastes tart like green apples, and is desirable is very small quantities in light beers. My money is on this... So maybe you are packaging too early?

EDIT: Sorry OP I didn't notice the age of this thread until after I posted... if you've already ruled all this out, disregard

Haha! Yes this is quite an old thread and yes I have cleared up my issues.

It's hard to say what exactly cleared up the problem, since I implemented 3 new upgrades at the same time, but I think the biggest issue was water. My tap water has high alkalinity, so for the first upgrade I bought a RO filter and started using straight RO water adjusted with minerals and acid to reach a desired mash pH. Second upgrade I built a cooler mash tun to help maintain proper mash temps and started batch sparging. Third thing I upgraded was temperature controlled fermentation. I don't think this improved my beer a whole lot compared to the RO and insulated tun/batch sparging since I was previously using a swamp cooler so my ferment temps were pretty much in check. But holy hell is it more convenient to put the carboy in the fridge, punch in the temp you want it to be, and walk away for 3 weeks.

Anyway, that tart taste (which I really really suspect came from too high of a mash pH and my generally crappy water - solved by using RO with minerals and acid) is gone and I am making some very enjoyable beers now!

 

[dsaavedra]

I'm having issues with all of my lighter beers having the same off taste. I recently read and reread several things about water chemistry and I'm convinced that my highly alkaline water is to blame. I hadn't been adjusting my water at all and according to calculations, my mash pH was probably around 6 most of the time. Everything else I'm doing seems to be good, standard practice so it almost has to be the water. I bought some lactic acid that I used last time but I haven't tasted the results yet. Trying to understand water chemistry is frustrating, but I think I'm almost, sort of, just barely starting to get the gist of the basics.

Ditto. High alkalinity and lighter beers can product a very unpleasant taste. This plagued my first 10 brews before I finally sucked it up and had my water analyzed.

Before resorting just to lactic acid in order to bring down mash pH, find out the mineral content of your water. Adding gypsum (for SO4), CaCl (for Ca), and Epsom (for Mg) will also lower pH. That way you add beneficial mineral content and kill two birds with one stone. Lactic acid in larger amounts is supposedly perceptible in the taste.

I pretty much determined that this was my issue. My beer improved night and day after I started using 100% RO water adjusted with salts and acid. I also started using an insulated mash tun and batch sparging, as well as using a temperature controlled fermentation fridge at the same time I started using RO water. My beers are quite tasty now!

Sorry I kind of abandoned this thread and never provided any resolution!

 

[eRicphtgr]

I pretty much determined that this was my issue. My beer improved night and day after I started using 100% RO water adjusted with salts and acid. I also started using an insulated mash tun and batch sparging, as well as using a temperature controlled fermentation fridge at the same time I started using RO water. My beers are quite tasty now!

Sorry I kind of abandoned this thread and never provided any resolution!

I am happy that you solve your problem. My latest AG batch of dunkel hefeweizen has a little bit of bitter and sour taste while the beer temperature raise up. It wasn't obvious (or not aware of) when serves at 40F. Not sure it was caused by the Belgium Chocolate malt or tannin from grain.