All around english yeast

[andrea93]

Hi!
After a 4 month break from brewing, it’s time to start to brew again!
My idea for the next months is to brew a wide range of english style beers. Here in Italy we can’t find this styles easily but i like them a lot.
The chosen styles will be: bitter, eipa, mild, brown ale, porter, oatmeal stout and barleywine.
I’d like to use just one yeast strain, in order to have a “common element” between all my english beers. Since it’s quite difficult for me scheduling the batch days in advance, my choice is limited to dry yeasts.
Here in Italy i can purchase:
- S04
- Lallemand windsor
- Notty
- Lallemand London ESB
- Mangrove M15
- Mangrove M36

Which one would you choose? Which one is an “all-around yeast” for english style?


Thank you guys.
Cheers!

 

[HTH1975]

Saf-04 is solid and reliable for a variety of styles.

Notty is a bit bland and attenuates too much imo. Windsor is known for stalling at 1.020, so that would be a no for me.

The others I have no experience with.

 

[Pappers_]

I like both Nottingham and Windsor and use both. I used Nottingham in a Irish Stout that just won a silver medal and I've used Windsor for smaller beers where I still want some body in them - like a Honey Ale that also won a medal a few years ago.

Windsor attenuateds less than Nottingham but I've never had it 'stall' - the Honey Ale usually finishes around 1.008 - 1.010.

 

[catdaddy66]

S-04 is a very good British yeast and Notty is a beast!

Too bad you are limited to dry as my go to strain is wlp007.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

If your recipe requires greater apparent attenuation than Windsor alone can provide, I've successfully combined Windsor and S-O4 by rehydrating and pitching one full pack of each into my typical ~6.5 gallon (~24.6L) fermenter wort volume, and fermenting at 63 degrees F. (~17 degrees C.).

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

A recent gene sequencing study revealed that Fermentis S-33 and Lallemand (Danstar) Windsor are nearly identical. I often find that Fermentis yeasts cost somewhat less than Lallemand yeasts.

 

[thehaze]

Nottingham is great even in Pale Ales and IPAs. Great attenuation, flocculation, clean, reliable, agressive. Windsor is also good. I get anything between 70 and 73% AA with it and it's great. Pitching both is even better, for something like an ESB/Amber Pale, Sweet Stouts, Stouts, Porters, Red Ales, etc.

 

[Miraculix]

Notty is a great yeast but rather clean with very little English flavour.

Lallemand London esb has great flavour, medium attenuation, but flocculation is not great. If the flocculation is not a problem for you,I would choose this one.

04 is my favourite stout yeast and has some nice esters. It flocs like a beast and ferments really fast. I heard that people got problems with tartness when using it at the upper end of the temperature range, but I never experienced this myself.

Actually I would use both, 04 and London esb. They are both nice and both really fast.

Co pitching London esb for flavour with notty or 04 for flocculation should also work really well.

 

[Lalo]

S-04 is a great English yeast. It is clean and lightly fruity/estery if you stay within recommended temperatures. Nottingham is bland like others have mentioned and it does stall. I recently made a dark mild and an English red ale (special bitter) fermenting at 61°F and came out great. It can work for Irish Red Ales and American Pale Ales & IPAs as well.
Once I fermented a strong ale on the high end of the temp. range and got a lot of fruity esters but also some weird off flavors...not tart like someone mentioned, but more of an astringent/bitter flavor.

PS. Someone has mentioned that English ales are usually fermented at 70F. I have applied such understanding in the past and got disappointing results. Recently I contacted Fermentis and one of their chemists replied and told me that the ideal temp. for S-04 is in the low 60's for attenuation, clean fermentation, moderate esters, etc. I followed this advice and it worked great for me in my last 2 batches.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Notty is a great yeast but rather clean with very little English flavour.

Lallemand London esb has great flavour, medium attenuation, but flocculation is not great. If the flocculation is not a problem for you,I would choose this one.

04 is my favourite stout yeast and has some nice esters. It flocs like a beast and ferments really fast. I heard that people got problems with tartness when using it at the upper end of the temperature range, but I never experienced this myself.

Actually I would use both, 04 and London esb. They are both nice and both really fast.

Co pitching London esb for flavour with notty or 04 for flocculation should also work really well.

I've never tried the Lallemand London ESB. How would you compare it to their Windsor?

 

[Miraculix]

I've never tried the Lallemand London ESB. How would you compare it to their Windsor?

Never tried Windsor, but I think I read somewhere that they are related?

 

[dmtaylor]

Definitely would stick with S-04, or M36 which *should* be equivalent (just repackaged S-04). The other ones have very high (Notty) or very low (Windsor) attenuation which makes them not great for every style.

 

[Miraculix]

Definitely would stick with S-04, or M36 which *should* be equivalent (just repackaged S-04). The other ones have very high (Notty) or very low (Windsor) attenuation which makes them not great for every style.

Afaik, fermentis does not allow their yeasts to be rebranded, therefore they shouldn't be the same.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

From what I've read about it, Lallemand's (Danstar's) London ESB yeast has about the same low attenuation characteristics as for Windsor.

Since I've successfully used a 50/50 blend of S-04 and Windsor in the past, I'll have to try a blend of S-04 and London ESB sometime.

I took the liberty to scarf some flavor profiles off of the Lallemand website, and bundle them together in one panorama. I've attached it here.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Never tried Windsor, but I think I read somewhere that they are related?

Isomerization found that Windsor and ESB have similar DNA fingerprints, and supposedly they and Notty all came from the same British multistrain. I've not used ESB, but supposedly it's a slightly duller version of Windsor. It has its own thread here.

Definitely would stick with S-04, or M36 which *should* be equivalent (just repackaged S-04). The other ones have very high (Notty) or very low (Windsor) attenuation which makes them not great for every style.

OTOH if you do have them both, you have the option of pitching Windsor to start with for flavour, and then pitching Notty after high krausen to attenuate and flocc them both out, which is the kind of "best of both worlds" that you see with traditional British multistrains, which are a 2+2=5 thing.

Once you start thinking in terms of blending then there's all sorts of things you can do, like adding a small pinch (<1g in 19 litres) of T-58 to give a bit of interest to a more neutral yeast.

You may need to be a bit careful with barleywines, as yeast like Mangrove Jack M15 won't cope with the alcohol.

It has to be said that whilst S-04 and Nottingham are widely used in the UK, in homebrew and small commercial breweries, they're a bit uninteresting compared to "real" brewery strains. It could be worth harvesting from eg Fuller's ESB or Bengal Lancer (known as India Pale Ale in overseas markets), which seem to be reasonably available in Italy eg here or here.

 

[dmtaylor]

From what I've read about it, Lallemand's (Danstar's) London ESB yeast has about the same low attenuation characteristics as for Windsor.

Since I've successfully used a 50/50 blend of S-04 and Windsor in the past, I'll have to try a blend of S-04 and London ESB sometime.

I took the liberty to scarf some flavor profiles off of the Lallemand website, and bundle them together in one panorama. I've attached it here.

I could never understand why Lallemand would sell two low attenuating English yeasts with almost identical properties. Several of us need to run some side by side experiments to figure out the differences.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

From the Lallemand website:

London ESB:
Medium attenuation and Low flocculation
Neutral to slightly fruity and estery flavor and aroma, allowing Malt aromas and flavors to shine through
London ESB does not utilize the sugar maltotriose (a molecule composed of 3 glucose units).

Windsor:
Medium attenuation and Low flocculation
Fruity and Estery flavor and aroma, typical of traditional English style ales
Windsor does not utilize the sugar maltotriose (a molecule composed of 3 glucose units).

Since I want some fruity and estery character for English style ales, I think I'll likely stick with Windsor. London ESB seems perhaps a bit too neutral. @Northern_Brewer said it best. London ESB appears to be a slightly duller version of Windsor.

 

[couchsending]

Does the OP have temp control?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I could never understand why Lallemand would sell two low attenuating English yeasts with almost identical properties.

They just seem to do that - you also have the example of Munich and Munich Classic as a similar kind of thing. I guess they only need a couple of good commercial customers using a particular yeast for it to be worth their while making the odd batch - you have to remember that beer is not a particularly important market for them, it's <1% of their production from what I've heard, so they're not thinking that hard about it. Yes, it would be great if they had some proper British yeasts like Brewlab CC or F40, but I guess they go with what they've got - the problems they've had with their New England product is hardly an incentive for them to put a lot of resources into new strains. It's weird that they withdrew Manchester but still have ESB and ordinary Munich though.

 

[jrgtr42]

I've used a couple of the English yeasts in the part, depending on the beer, it comes out pretty well - usually I use Wyeast or White Labs, the London Ale or ESB. For stouts, I actually prefer the Irish Ale, it doesn't have quite the esters that the London ones have, and gives a slightly drier finish.

 

[Jako]

i am a Huge fan of Imperial Pub yest. its a monster and drops out like playdoh.

sorry helps if i read the whole post first. Pub is a liquid yeast only.

 

[Rev2010]

I've always found it interesting how people report such varied experiences for some yeasts. I've been using Nottingham for years now in many of my beers and while some here have reported over-attenuation and stalled fermentations (which are basically opposite results) I've never had either happen. It's "Old Reliable" to me. I do agree however, you use Nottingham for clean fermentations where you are not looking for the yeast to contribute flavors and aromas.


Rev.

 

[thehaze]

I like Windsor and Nottingham and better together. Windsor is estery. Not really that much, but it can mimic english well.

For liquid yeast, I was impressed with Imperial A09 Pub. It's said to be the Fuller's strain and it's marmaldey. I mean, you really get a good wift of that Fuller's yeast character. And works well with hops as well. Pretty fruity and juicy, even.

 

[Miraculix]

I like Windsor and Nottingham and better together. Windsor is estery. Not really that much, but it can mimic english well.

For liquid yeast, I was impressed with Imperial A09 Pub. It's said to be the Fuller's strain and it's marmaldey. I mean, you really get a good wift of that Fuller's yeast character. And works well with hops as well. Pretty fruity and juicy, even.

I LOVE Pub

I am going to bottle a beer fermented with it right about...... now

 

[Jako]

I like Windsor and Nottingham and better together. Windsor is estery. Not really that much, but it can mimic english well.

For liquid yeast, I was impressed with Imperial A09 Pub. It's said to be the Fuller's strain and it's marmaldey. I mean, you really get a good wift of that Fuller's yeast character. And works well with hops as well. Pretty fruity and juicy, even.

it definitely has a sweet finish. "pretty fruity and juicy" is dead on from my experience. i used this yeast in a English mild that won gold medal this year. i feel like made the beer.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I can't get Imperial yeasts locally, but as of just recently I can get Omega Labs. Imperial claims to be acceptable for direct pitch (no starter). Is Omega Labs yeast similar in this regard, or does it require a starter.

 

[Jako]

says it's pitch ready. i am starting to learn more about yeast now. i would never not do a starter of some sort. even if you pull off some wort and start it an hour or two before.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Omega Labs "British Ale VIII" appears to be the Fuller's strain. For my typical fermenter volume of about 24L I would need to pitch two pouches if I didn't make a starter. Each pouch is said to contain ~150 billion yeast cells.

https://momalt.com/wp-content/catalog/omegayeastgrouporder.pdf

And Omega Lab's 'British Ale I' appears to be similar to S-04.

This has me contemplating a direct pitch consisting of one of each. But that would set me back $16. Ouch!!!

 

[andrea93]

Does the OP have temp control?

Yes i have!

 

[mediant]

They just seem to do that - you also have the example of Munich and Munich Classic as a similar kind of thing. I guess they only need a couple of good commercial customers using a particular yeast for it to be worth their while making the odd batch - you have to remember that beer is not a particularly important market for them, it's <1% of their production from what I've heard, so they're not thinking that hard about it. Yes, it would be great if they had some proper British yeasts like Brewlab CC or F40, but I guess they go with what they've got - the problems they've had with their New England product is hardly an incentive for them to put a lot of resources into new strains. It's weird that they withdrew Manchester but still have ESB and ordinary Munich though.

Did you know that Lallemand Munich and Munich Classic come from Doemens? Munich is strain #433, while Munich Classic is #479, and they're quite different, for instance Munich is POF-.
Speaking of British yeast - Doemens lists many Lallemand's other "own" yeast for ordering - Notti, ESB, Abbaye, New England and so on, except Windsor.
https://www.doemens.org/fileadmin/user_upload/pdfDownload/Yeastbank_EN_10-2018.pdf

 

[ESBrewer]

So it's no surprise std Munich won't make proper Hefeweizen because it is a neutral strain unable to produce the key compounds, esters and phenols...

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

If Lallemand get is yeasts from Doemens, then why does the Deputy Laboratory Manager and Director of the Yeast Bank and Micro-Organism Collection of Doemens Academy GmbH, state the following:

We offer eight different dry yeasts from the Lallemand company (Canada) ...

https://blog.krones.com/craftbeer/the-phantom-of-the-beer-yeast/

 

[z-bob]

I was going to say S-33, but Silver beat me to it. I have no idea why Fermantis calls it "Belgian"

K1V-1116 wine yeast might be worth a try. It's dirt-cheap, and I've used it a couple of times as an ale yeast and it works well. But I'm not sure if the ester profile is "English" enough. (try it and report back

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Lallemand isn't small potatoes. They own the Siebel Institute of Technology, and it would not surprise me to learn that they also own Doemens.

 

[ESBrewer]

If Lallemand get is yeasts from Doemens, then why does the Deputy Laboratory Manager and Director of the Yeast Bank and Micro-Organism Collection of Doemens Academy GmbH, state the following:
https://blog.krones.com/craftbeer/the-phantom-of-the-beer-yeast/

Well this is what Lallemand catalogue says: "Munich Classic is a Bavarian wheat beer strain selected from the Doemens Culture Collection." So it seems they co-operate closely, Doemens banks yeasts and Lallemand produces the dry yeast for breweries.

 

[mediant]

If Lallemand get is yeasts from Doemens, then why does the Deputy Laboratory Manager and Director of the Yeast Bank and Micro-Organism Collection of Doemens Academy GmbH, state the following:
https://blog.krones.com/craftbeer/the-phantom-of-the-beer-yeast/

That's cheating
We offer eight different dry yeasts from the Lallemand company (Canada), which are dried and sold all over the world in a cooperative arrangement with Doemens.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Well this is what Lallemand catalogue says: "Munich Classic is a Bavarian wheat beer strain selected from the Doemens Culture Collection."

But if Lallemand owns Doemans, all of this would be quite logical.

 

[ESBrewer]

I don't think they own Doemans (who knows) but they co-operate to produce dried versions of banked yeast to the markets.

 

[mediant]

So it's no surprise std Munich won't make proper Hefeweizen because it is a neutral strain unable to produce the key compounds, esters and phenols...

Never tried plain Munich, but Lallemand believes it still may - https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/Datasheets/Yeast - Lallemand Yeast Product Catalogue.pdf
They suggest longer boil for thermal 4VG decarboxylation and underpitch and/or variation of Hermann mash. If I'm not mistaken, that mash regimen is from Doemens too (Michael Eder).

 

[thehaze]

Munich Classic is Weihenstephaner, or at least is what I could find out and it works very well. One of the most expressive and estery DRY yeast ou there.