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@BrewnWKopperKat , those two styles are yeast driven. Some of the best hefeweizens and Belgians I ever made were back in my extract days (20 years ago). Hell... why do I bother with all-grain for yeast-driven styles. Save some time and effort.

I still wouldn't use extract for a light lager. The odds of making an award-winning brew for that style are extremely slim, all the stars would have to align every thousand years kind of thing.
 
@BrewnWKopperKat , those two styles are yeast driven. Some of the best hefeweizens and Belgians I ever made were back in my extract days (20 years ago). Hell... why do I bother with all-grain for yeast-driven styles. Save some time and effort.

I still wouldn't use extract for a light lager. The odds of making an award-winning brew for that style are extremely slim, all the stars would have to align every thousand years kind of thing.
I know a lot of people that like making pseudo Lambics and other mixed ferm beers that use DME for speed and most would agree that there are no styles more yeast driven than those. I would argue that while making extremely delicate lighter colored lagers could be more tricky with DME, 95% of the success of those styles is fermentation and packaging. Statistics probably won't ever help us on this front because even If you had access to every BJCP sanctioned competition entry and could know the brewing method used and what the typical score was, it's correlation and not causation. You could just as easily conclude that MOST brewers who take all aspects of brewing extremely seriously, most importantly on fermentation and packaging, just happen to gravitate towards all grain due to the increased control and ingredient selection afforded.
 
I know a lot of people that like making pseudo Lambics and other mixed ferm beers that use DME for speed and most would agree that there are no styles more yeast driven than those. I would argue that while making extremely delicate lighter colored lagers could be more tricky with DME, 95% of the success of those styles is fermentation and packaging. Statistics probably won't ever help us on this front because even If you had access to every BJCP sanctioned competition entry and could know the brewing method used and what the typical score was, it's correlation and not causation. You could just as easily conclude that MOST brewers who take all aspects of brewing extremely seriously, most importantly on fermentation and packaging, just happen to gravitate towards all grain due to the increased control and ingredient selection afforded.

So fresh DME / LME / (maybe HME 🤷‍♀️) is just another ingredient for an experienced brewer to use when making great beer at home?
 
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Sincerely interested in any scientific explanations as to why prehopped extract is an abomination.
So the last time I used prehopped LME was when I was new to brewing beer and frustrated with not achieving the correct color for a pale ale even with adding half the LME at the end of the boil. So I tried pre hopped to work around the problem. No clue as to what hop was used producing the LME results were better color, but bitter AF. This was 7 years ago the LME was Coopers. Maybe things are differently now, but after that was when I started BIAB all grain, just using DME for yeast starters and if the OG needs a bump up, which hasn’t been an issue for years.

I know this may not be the “scientific“ explanation you wanted, however if you are brewing a specific style you generally want specific hops to be “in style” or perhaps to your own tastes. Pre-hopped LME limits your flexibility.
 
Sincerely interested in any scientific explanations as to why prehopped extract is an abomination.

That's an opinion, not a scientific journal article. In fact, consider 100% of my postings on this forum to be my opinion. It will save a lot of time.

Prehopped extract is the beer equivalent of Lipton instant iced tea mix. It mixes with water and makes a drink some people enjoy.

You haven't made any particular assertions about pre-hopped extract beers, but if I were to suppose that you said something like "prehopped extract can make a beer on par with any other brewing method", I would say I don't believe you. We can debate what "on par" actually means and how you would go about testing it for a very long while. The test that would convince me would be something like three different beer styles picked at random and brewed each with prehopped extract and all grain. Those beer outputs would be entered into two separate BJCP competitions (or just by a pair of BJCP judges) completely blind and if both brewing methods produce a score say within 5 points of each other.

The argument that I easily concede to is that not everyone is concerned with making the best beer they can (I don't really understand why anyone wouldn't). You could also say that you're not brewing to compete against other beer. That's fair, but it's a different discussion. I think it's true to say that all else being equal, the potential beer quality goes:

All Grain > DME + Steeping Grain > Relatively Fresh LME + Steeping Grain > Fresh Prehopped LME > Stale, several months old room temp LME (prehopped or not).
 
The argument that I easily concede to is that not everyone is concerned with making the best beer they can (I don't really understand why anyone wouldn't).
Maybe not much of a difference, but I suspect that for some the calculus is along the lines of "this is easy and the beer is OK but that other stuff sounds hard."

edit - this obviously doesn't apply to those who use fresh pre-hopped LME and supplement with steeping grain, DME, additional hops, etc; I just don't see much advantage in that over DME or fresh un-hopped LME and steeping grain.
 
What are some scientific explanations as to why pre-hopped extract doesn't produce the best beer possible? Is there that much of a difference between a pre-hopped can hot off the line vs. one at it's expiration date? What are the chemical reactions or staling factors involved (presumed canned and O2 free)? Can these be mitigated when making the kit?
 
Is there that much of a difference between a pre-hopped can hot off the line vs. one at it's expiration date?
Depends on how it was stored, and it's usually damned near impossible to know how it was stored.
Can these be mitigated when making the kit?
There are lots of folks around here who have a lot more experience with LME than I do, but I'm pretty sure that staled extract won't make good beer no matter what you do to try to mitigate the fact that it's stale. There are plenty of threads on this forum dealing with best practices for extract brewing including ways to test the freshness of LME, but I don't know about salvaging ingredients that have actually gone bad.
 
Looking for more science. Why is the extract staling? Is it due to heat and/or O2 exposure? Is extract canning an O2 free process? How does heat contribute to staling reactions in the absence of O2?
Well, you could ask some of the people who make it:

When brewing with LME extracts, you must consider the elements that could affect your ingredient. The number one enemy of liquid extracts is heat. If a CBW® is exposed to temperatures above 80° prior to brewing, it can be detrimental to the overall taste and color of your brew.

Just as heat changes the color of your grains in a steep, it also has an effect on the product in a canister over time. CBW®s will experience a Maillard reaction at various temperatures and periods of time. A CBW® stored at 60° will experience minimal browning over a six month period, where as a CBW® stored at 90° on a hot summer day in a truck or warehouse will see exponential browning in just a few days. This rapid change can lead to an undesired sharp malty or tangy flavor in your brew.
 
Well, you could ask some of the people who make it:

When brewing with LME extracts, you must consider the elements that could affect your ingredient. The number one enemy of liquid extracts is heat. If a CBW® is exposed to temperatures above 80° prior to brewing, it can be detrimental to the overall taste and color of your brew.

Just as heat changes the color of your grains in a steep, it also has an effect on the product in a canister over time. CBW®s will experience a Maillard reaction at various temperatures and periods of time. A CBW® stored at 60° will experience minimal browning over a six month period, where as a CBW® stored at 90° on a hot summer day in a truck or warehouse will see exponential browning in just a few days. This rapid change can lead to an undesired sharp malty or tangy flavor in your brew.

I think this lends to an observation I've made that the pre-hopped kit country of origin seems to have more folks who like these kits because they are probably fresher. Coopers = Australia, Muntons = UK.

Does the US have a pre-hopped (HME) kit maker?
 
Does the US have a pre-hopped (HME) kit maker?
Not that I am aware of. There is some availability of the Munton's kits, but in general the pre-hopped extract kits have never been very popular in the US. Brewer's Best is a popular "entry level kit" manufacturer, but their kits are usually cans of LME (maybe with a mix of Golden, Amber or Dark cans), steeping grains, and with packs of hops that are added into the boil for bitterness and flavor.
 
Did a quick scan of NHC winning 'locked' recipes over at AHA.

Found four additional recipes in the 2006 - 2009 time frame.

1 of 4: NHC 2006 (link to 'locked' recipe) - Northern German Altbier

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Brewer's Best is a popular "entry level kit" manufacturer, but their kits are usually cans of LME (maybe with a mix of Golden, Amber or Dark cans), steeping grains, and with packs of hops that are added into the boil for bitterness and flavor.
DME too. Some even have candi syrup! And a couple of the "advanced" kits incorporate things like a mini-mash and whirlpool hop additions.
 
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What are some scientific explanations as to why pre-hopped extract doesn't produce the best beer possible? Is there that much of a difference between a pre-hopped can hot off the line vs. one at it's expiration date? What are the chemical reactions or staling factors involved (presumed canned and O2 free)? Can these be mitigated when making the kit?

From a creative/flexibility standpoint:

Fact: PHLME has a baked in hop varietal so you can't choose that. I stock something like 60 different hops by the ounce and most of them are suitable for bittering and will give you different flavors. In other words, it's a myth that the bittering hop doesn't impact flavor at all. Yes, you can augment the brew with other hops at different timings but then you've just negated the simplicity of PHLME (which I suspect is the only reason one would buy it).

Fact: The bitterness is already locked in. Once you dilute to wort strength, it has so many IBUs and not plus or minus. Same caveat as above. You COULD jack around with the process to add more bitterness or add plain extract to dilute the hop intensity but same "why" question.

Hypothesis: The quality of hop flavor may be negatively impacted by the water removal process to make the LME. E.g. canned foods taste less fresh than fresh foods.

The other detriment is freshness, but that applies to all LME. If you're not standing in the store looking at the packaging date right on product you're about to walk out with, you have no idea what you're going to get and LME gets rank as it ages. As more people transition to all grain brewing due to the widely available all in one systems, the demand for extract slows and product sits on the shelf longer and longer. In my store maybe 10% of DME goes out destined for a beer while 90% is bought for making yeast starters. I can usually tell when it's for a recipe because it's bought with yeast and hops for example.

The only real reason to use LME is if you can't source DME at all or you don't want to learn all grain brewing (at least not yet). No matter what recipe you want to make, you can use DME and boil hops for any situation that PHLME was going to be used.

I think the best way to really see what quality differences may exist is to just brew a few different methods and taste the beer. If you want a more objective rating of where the beer lands, BJCP competitions are the best we have for that. In my previous post I was careful to suggest picking three beer styles at random because that kind of removes the ability to cherry pick styles that would do best with extracts as we've discussed in the earlier part of the thread.
 
...but in general the pre-hopped extract kits have never been very popular in the US.

Blue Ribbon and Premier extracts used to be readily available.

From a creative/flexibility standpoint:

Fact: PHLME has a baked in hop varietal so you can't choose that. I stock something like 60 different hops by the ounce and most of them are suitable for bittering and will give you different flavors. In other words, it's a myth that the bittering hop doesn't impact flavor at all. Yes, you can augment the brew with other hops at different timings but then you've just negated the simplicity of PHLME (which I suspect is the only reason one would buy it).

Fact: The bitterness is already locked in. Once you dilute to wort strength, it has so many IBUs and not plus or minus. Same caveat as above. You COULD jack around with the process to add more bitterness or add plain extract to dilute the hop intensity but same "why" question.

Hypothesis: The quality of hop flavor may be negatively impacted by the water removal process to make the LME. E.g. canned foods taste less fresh than fresh foods.

The other detriment is freshness, but that applies to all LME. If you're not standing in the store looking at the packaging date right on product you're about to walk out with, you have no idea what you're going to get and LME gets rank as it ages. As more people transition to all grain brewing due to the widely available all in one systems, the demand for extract slows and product sits on the shelf longer and longer. In my store maybe 10% of DME goes out destined for a beer while 90% is bought for making yeast starters. I can usually tell when it's for a recipe because it's bought with yeast and hops for example.

The only real reason to use LME is if you can't source DME at all or you don't want to learn all grain brewing (at least not yet). No matter what recipe you want to make, you can use DME and boil hops for any situation that PHLME was going to be used.

I think the best way to really see what quality differences may exist is to just brew a few different methods and taste the beer. If you want a more objective rating of where the beer lands, BJCP competitions are the best we have for that. In my previous post I was careful to suggest picking three beer styles at random because that kind of removes the ability to cherry pick styles that would do best with extracts as we've discussed in the earlier part of the thread.

A common practice with HME kits is to adjust the volume to increase or decrease the ABV. Does this also increase or decrease the IBUs?

I've brewed a Coopers 86 Day Pilsner and hope to bottle this week.
 
Blue Ribbon and Premier extracts used to be readily available.
That was a long time ago, when almost nothing else was readily available.

A common practice with HME kits is to adjust the volume to increase or decrease the ABV. Does this also increase or decrease the IBUs?
Wouldn't that be just like adjusting the volume but not the amount of hops with any other brewing method?
 
Blue Ribbon and Premier extracts used to be readily available.
Check the various US-based on-line home brew stores to see if anyone offers it for sale.

Muntons makes a spraymalt (dry) malt extract (which was used in some of those "shake and brew" videos). If you can find a source for it in the various US-based on-line home brew stores, that might be interesting.

A common practice with HME kits is to adjust the volume to increase or decrease the ABV. Does this also increase or decrease the IBUs?
Yes.
 
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A common practice with HME kits is to adjust the volume to increase or decrease the ABV. Does this also increase or decrease the IBUs?
Yes the total IBUs in the extract are fixed so it drops linearly in proportion to how much water gets added. However, as you'd expect, both the pre and post fermentation specific gravity correlate by about the same attenuation so the more concentrated version will generally accommodate a higher bitterness.
 
Yes the total IBUs in the extract are fixed so it drops linearly in proportion to how much water gets added. However, as you'd expect, both the pre and post fermentation specific gravity correlate by about the same attenuation so the more concentrated version will generally accommodate a higher bitterness.
I think of this as maintaining the same BU:GU ratio - same concept.
 

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