AHA homebrewer of the year

[Oleson M.D.]

Extract is just another ingredient. Most of us experienced better results, with more total,control, after going all-grain. That has been my experience, especially when brewing very light SRM German Lagers.

In Annie’s recent articles and recipes, it is all centered around extract brewing. Nothing wrong with that. A bit of a switch from her decoction / Pilsner Urquell famous days.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

We have not used extract (LME / DME) for over 3 decades.

Good to know.

 

[Oleson M.D.]

It's likely that DME / LME has changed since then.

Perhaps so. The malt we are using is awesome, now brewing with malt from Amarillo, TX. Made a Festbier with it. Might be the best so far. Doubt that that could be done with extract.

Extract has a place in brewing. But we choose to use all grain. The best use of an extract might be in the brewing of a very high OG beer, where you do not have enough kettle capacity to do that volume of mash.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Extract has a place in brewing.

Agreed.

But we choose to use all grain

I respect that decision. And look forward to hearing of your experiences when brewing "all-grain".

Many home brewers choose to use both "all grain" and "extract". Please respect their decision.

[In our opinion ... t]he best use of an extract might be in the brewing of a very high OG beer, where you do not have enough kettle capacity to do that volume of mash.

This is a well known use for fresh DME/LME. I have heard that Brewers Crystals is another ingredient that works well in this situation.

We have not used extract (LME / DME) for over 3 decades.

Good to know.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

This developing topic (AHA forums link), on water adjustments for (all-grain) pilsners, may be of interest.

aside: brands (Muntons, Briess) of DME/LME are known to have a different mineral content. Ideas on how to approach this can be found in Brewing Engineering, 2e; or just 'season to taste' / 'dial it in'. Additional information on water adjustments with DME/LME can also be found in How to Brew, 4e and the free version of bru'n water.

 

[McMullan]

I suspect the decent pitching rate was one of the key drivers to this guy's success. Who makes a 3L starter with a pack of dry yeast for a single batch of session strength beer? In most cases, that's likely to translate into a shed load more yeast cells than a 3L starter made with wet yeast. Everyone's New Year's resolution should be to aim to 'over' pitch yeast.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

This idea comes from reading across a couple of recent topics.

For those who publish home brewing content, consider doing a series of articles / videos on your effort to recreate this beer. As an alternative, a series on how you brewed a favorite style using extract+steep to a BJCP score of 35+ would be interesting.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

FWIW, NHC 2023 gold medal in category 8:

​

eta: just a gold medal (not home brewer of the year this year). And three different brewers across three years.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Also Category 23:

eta: just a gold medal (not home brewer of the year this year). And three different brewers across three years.

 

[Bobby_M]

If there's one recurring theme, it's that styles relatively devoid of malt flavors and highly dependent on yeast/fermentation character are less affected by the wort derivation methods. I guess you could argue that American Lager was devoid of malt AND yeast character.

On the other hand, it should be less likely to find a Marzen or Doppelbock in the same situation.

 

[dmtaylor]

@BrewnWKopperKat , those two styles are yeast driven. Some of the best hefeweizens and Belgians I ever made were back in my extract days (20 years ago). Hell... why do I bother with all-grain for yeast-driven styles. Save some time and effort.

I still wouldn't use extract for a light lager. The odds of making an award-winning brew for that style are extremely slim, all the stars would have to align every thousand years kind of thing.

 

[Bobby_M]

@BrewnWKopperKat , those two styles are yeast driven. Some of the best hefeweizens and Belgians I ever made were back in my extract days (20 years ago). Hell... why do I bother with all-grain for yeast-driven styles. Save some time and effort.

I still wouldn't use extract for a light lager. The odds of making an award-winning brew for that style are extremely slim, all the stars would have to align every thousand years kind of thing.

I know a lot of people that like making pseudo Lambics and other mixed ferm beers that use DME for speed and most would agree that there are no styles more yeast driven than those. I would argue that while making extremely delicate lighter colored lagers could be more tricky with DME, 95% of the success of those styles is fermentation and packaging. Statistics probably won't ever help us on this front because even If you had access to every BJCP sanctioned competition entry and could know the brewing method used and what the typical score was, it's correlation and not causation. You could just as easily conclude that MOST brewers who take all aspects of brewing extremely seriously, most importantly on fermentation and packaging, just happen to gravitate towards all grain due to the increased control and ingredient selection afforded.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I know a lot of people that like making pseudo Lambics and other mixed ferm beers that use DME for speed and most would agree that there are no styles more yeast driven than those. I would argue that while making extremely delicate lighter colored lagers could be more tricky with DME, 95% of the success of those styles is fermentation and packaging. Statistics probably won't ever help us on this front because even If you had access to every BJCP sanctioned competition entry and could know the brewing method used and what the typical score was, it's correlation and not causation. You could just as easily conclude that MOST brewers who take all aspects of brewing extremely seriously, most importantly on fermentation and packaging, just happen to gravitate towards all grain due to the increased control and ingredient selection afforded.

So fresh DME / LME / (maybe HME ) is just another ingredient for an experienced brewer to use when making great beer at home?

 

[Bobby_M]

So fresh DME / LME / (maybe HME ) is just another ingredient for an experienced brewer to use when making great beer at home?

Without any further extrapolation than that, yes. The prehopped extract remains an abomination.

 

[huckdavidson]

The prehopped extract remains an abomination.

Sincerely interested in any scientific explanations as to why prehopped extract is an abomination.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

Sincerely interested in any scientific explanations as to why prehopped extract is an abomination.

So the last time I used prehopped LME was when I was new to brewing beer and frustrated with not achieving the correct color for a pale ale even with adding half the LME at the end of the boil. So I tried pre hopped to work around the problem. No clue as to what hop was used producing the LME results were better color, but bitter AF. This was 7 years ago the LME was Coopers. Maybe things are differently now, but after that was when I started BIAB all grain, just using DME for yeast starters and if the OG needs a bump up, which hasn’t been an issue for years.

I know this may not be the “scientific“ explanation you wanted, however if you are brewing a specific style you generally want specific hops to be “in style” or perhaps to your own tastes. Pre-hopped LME limits your flexibility.

 

[mac_1103]

Sincerely interested in any scientific explanations as to why prehopped extract is an abomination.

"Abomination" is not exactly a scientific term, so good luck with that.

 

[Bobby_M]

Sincerely interested in any scientific explanations as to why prehopped extract is an abomination.

That's an opinion, not a scientific journal article. In fact, consider 100% of my postings on this forum to be my opinion. It will save a lot of time.

Prehopped extract is the beer equivalent of Lipton instant iced tea mix. It mixes with water and makes a drink some people enjoy.

You haven't made any particular assertions about pre-hopped extract beers, but if I were to suppose that you said something like "prehopped extract can make a beer on par with any other brewing method", I would say I don't believe you. We can debate what "on par" actually means and how you would go about testing it for a very long while. The test that would convince me would be something like three different beer styles picked at random and brewed each with prehopped extract and all grain. Those beer outputs would be entered into two separate BJCP competitions (or just by a pair of BJCP judges) completely blind and if both brewing methods produce a score say within 5 points of each other.

The argument that I easily concede to is that not everyone is concerned with making the best beer they can (I don't really understand why anyone wouldn't). You could also say that you're not brewing to compete against other beer. That's fair, but it's a different discussion. I think it's true to say that all else being equal, the potential beer quality goes:

All Grain > DME + Steeping Grain > Relatively Fresh LME + Steeping Grain > Fresh Prehopped LME > Stale, several months old room temp LME (prehopped or not).

 

[mac_1103]

The argument that I easily concede to is that not everyone is concerned with making the best beer they can (I don't really understand why anyone wouldn't).

Maybe not much of a difference, but I suspect that for some the calculus is along the lines of "this is easy and the beer is OK but that other stuff sounds hard."

edit - this obviously doesn't apply to those who use fresh pre-hopped LME and supplement with steeping grain, DME, additional hops, etc; I just don't see much advantage in that over DME or fresh un-hopped LME and steeping grain.

 

[huckdavidson]

What are some scientific explanations as to why pre-hopped extract doesn't produce the best beer possible? Is there that much of a difference between a pre-hopped can hot off the line vs. one at it's expiration date? What are the chemical reactions or staling factors involved (presumed canned and O2 free)? Can these be mitigated when making the kit?

 

[mac_1103]

Is there that much of a difference between a pre-hopped can hot off the line vs. one at it's expiration date?

Depends on how it was stored, and it's usually damned near impossible to know how it was stored.

Can these be mitigated when making the kit?

There are lots of folks around here who have a lot more experience with LME than I do, but I'm pretty sure that staled extract won't make good beer no matter what you do to try to mitigate the fact that it's stale. There are plenty of threads on this forum dealing with best practices for extract brewing including ways to test the freshness of LME, but I don't know about salvaging ingredients that have actually gone bad.

 

[huckdavidson]

Looking for more science. Why is the extract staling? Is it due to heat and/or O2 exposure? Is extract canning an O2 free process? How does heat contribute to staling reactions in the absence of O2?

I've found an article that helps explain the staling process:

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/Staling_Compounds

 

[mac_1103]

Looking for more science. Why is the extract staling? Is it due to heat and/or O2 exposure? Is extract canning an O2 free process? How does heat contribute to staling reactions in the absence of O2?

Well, you could ask some of the people who make it:

When brewing with LME extracts, you must consider the elements that could affect your ingredient. The number one enemy of liquid extracts is heat. If a CBW® is exposed to temperatures above 80° prior to brewing, it can be detrimental to the overall taste and color of your brew.

Just as heat changes the color of your grains in a steep, it also has an effect on the product in a canister over time. CBW®s will experience a Maillard reaction at various temperatures and periods of time. A CBW® stored at 60° will experience minimal browning over a six month period, where as a CBW® stored at 90° on a hot summer day in a truck or warehouse will see exponential browning in just a few days. This rapid change can lead to an undesired sharp malty or tangy flavor in your brew.

 

[huckdavidson]

Well, you could ask some of the people who make it:

When brewing with LME extracts, you must consider the elements that could affect your ingredient. The number one enemy of liquid extracts is heat. If a CBW® is exposed to temperatures above 80° prior to brewing, it can be detrimental to the overall taste and color of your brew.

Just as heat changes the color of your grains in a steep, it also has an effect on the product in a canister over time. CBW®s will experience a Maillard reaction at various temperatures and periods of time. A CBW® stored at 60° will experience minimal browning over a six month period, where as a CBW® stored at 90° on a hot summer day in a truck or warehouse will see exponential browning in just a few days. This rapid change can lead to an undesired sharp malty or tangy flavor in your brew.

I think this lends to an observation I've made that the pre-hopped kit country of origin seems to have more folks who like these kits because they are probably fresher. Coopers = Australia, Muntons = UK.

Does the US have a pre-hopped (HME) kit maker?

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Does the US have a pre-hopped (HME) kit maker?

Not that I am aware of. There is some availability of the Munton's kits, but in general the pre-hopped extract kits have never been very popular in the US. Brewer's Best is a popular "entry level kit" manufacturer, but their kits are usually cans of LME (maybe with a mix of Golden, Amber or Dark cans), steeping grains, and with packs of hops that are added into the boil for bitterness and flavor.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Did a quick scan of NHC winning 'locked' recipes over at AHA.

Found four additional recipes in the 2006 - 2009 time frame.

1 of 4: NHC 2006 (link to 'locked' recipe) - Northern German Altbier

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

2 of 4: NHC 2009: Dark Lager (link to 'locked' recipe), partial mash; comments in Zymurgy magazine article.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

3 of 4: NHC 2009: Scottish and Irish Ale (link to 'locked' recipe); LME

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

4 of 4: NHC 2009 Belgian Strong Ale (link to 'locked' recipe)

 

[dmtaylor]