AG brewing taste differences, in general?

[Mysticmead]

Unless my math is bad 55 lbs of 2 row for $30 = $1.83333/lb
I can buy just what I need at my LHBS for $1.70/lb
Of course I have to add gas, but I'd spend that to pick up the other grains and hops needed.
Dry yeast I'm buying on line. Buying 20 packs + shipping is cheaper than getting it locally.

take 30.00 and divide by 55.. you did it backwards. comes out to 0.5454545454545455 per pound. which if you reverse it and do .5454545454545455 x 55 = 30.
the way you did it would be 1.83333 x 55 = 100.8315

 

[petep1980]

The one thing I find different between my all grain and extract brews is the final gravity. All things being equal I would say my avg all grain ends around 1.010 or 1.012 and extract 1.016 or 1.018.

My all grains are generally a little better I think for this difference.

 

[cadarnell]

take 30.00 and divide by 55.. you did it backwards. comes out to 0.5454545454545455 per pound. which if you reverse it and do .5454545454545455 x 55 = 30.
the way you did it would be 1.83333 x 55 = 100.8315

:fro:

 

[Beezy]

The one thing I find different between my all grain and extract brews is the final gravity. All things being equal I would say my avg all grain ends around 1.010 or 1.012 and extract 1.016 or 1.018.

My all grains are generally a little better I think for this difference.

I only did 2 extracts but mine ended at 1.010 and 1.012. I did not do starters. My experience was not bad. I liked the dry better. The stuff is too expensive though. I was pricing out an IPA and it was coming out at like 60 bucks lol. Might as well just buy it at that point.

 

[Yooper]

I respectfully disagree. I was using starters, using full boils and late editions by my 2nd brew. My fermentation was solid and maintained at 68F, which was what many of those styles I brewed for (IPAs, Porters, browns) called for.

I hate to get flamed, buy my experience is/was similar. Some very good beers have been made with extract, but I was able to detect an "extract taste" in all of them, even in some that won ribbons in competitions I judged. They were very good, even excellent, but I noticed. I've had some terrible AG beers, some excellent extract beers and everything in between. But I noticed.

Unless my math is bad 55 lbs of 2 row for $30 = $1.83333/lb
I can buy just what I need at my LHBS for $1.70/lb
Of course I have to add gas, but I'd spend that to pick up the other grains and hops needed.
Dry yeast I'm buying on line. Buying 20 packs + shipping is cheaper than getting it locally.

Your math is bad! It's just about 55 cents/pound for 55 pounds of two-row for $30. I pay a bit more- nearly $37 for 50 pounds which is 74 cents/pound.

 

[stbnj]

I can't tell yet, so far I have done 3 all grain brews, only one (vienna/northern brewer SMaSH) just made it to the bottle 10 days ago. So far the people who have tried it, knowing its still a bit young and undercarbed, liked it much better than the 2 extract batches I did. I think its many of the other things I have learned and gotten better at since those 2 extract batches that made it better not just going all grain.

 

[cg17]

Congrats on going all grain! Don't underestimate holding a steady fermentation temp. Having a dedicated freezer with a JC temp control is the single best investment I made

 

[Bigscience]

While I can see that some improved technical aspect may be learned at the same time a brewer us going to AG that could make the difference seem greater but I've recently gone back to extract for ever other brew due to time constraints. I do say that there is a difference that I can only describe as AG being "fresher". Even if I use LME that is frequently turned over, it seems to have a molassesey taste. DME on the other hand will produce a respectable house beer. I have brewed the two beers side by side on a blonde and the AG was the hands down winner.

But if it comes down to not having the time to brew of brewing a DME based beer, I'll brew.

 

[nate456789]

I have made 13 extract brews and got that process down very well and everyone loved the beers. But the lighter beers had a taste. Not bad. All very drinkable.
That pushed me to all grain to see if I could make it taste like a professional beer. Crisp, clean etc.
I have done 2 all grain brews so far and they both suck. My efficiency is around 50%. Very disappointing. No body to the beers. Just very unbalanced beers.
My problems have been with equipment and have caused me to not be able to maintain the needed temps to get the results.
So far all grain has been very challenging for me. When I finally get it right it will be worth it I am sure.

 

[aerialmedical]

Sorry guys. Relatively new here and I had no idea this was a potential point of contention.

Was just thinking out loud and passing time until I can get me AG brew on next month! :rockin:

Ugh!...look what you did now, Jubilee! See what thinking out loud again has gotten you into again?? Haha!

 

[CidahMastah]

I hate to get flamed, buy my experience is/was similar. Some very good beers have been made with extract, but I was able to detect an "extract taste" in all of them, even in some that won ribbons in competitions I judged. They were very good, even excellent, but I noticed. I've had some terrible AG beers, some excellent extract beers and everything in between. But I noticed.

Well yoop,

Apparently we are part of the snobby elitest AG brewers, selling the Emperor's new clothing.

 

[Yooper]

Well yoop,

Apparently we are part of the snobby elitest AG brewers, selling the Emperor's new clothing.

Yeah, I get pretty beat up on the "long primary" thing too.

The mob around here tells me that I"m an idiot for only leaving my beer in the fermenter for 2 weeks, or only for a week or more after FG is reached.

Ah well.

 

[Shooter]

While I can see that some improved technical aspect may be learned at the same time a brewer us going to AG that could make the difference seem greater but I've recently gone back to extract for ever other brew due to time constraints. I do say that there is a difference that I can only describe as AG being "fresher". Even if I use LME that is frequently turned over, it seems to have a molassesey taste. DME on the other hand will produce a respectable house beer. I have brewed the two beers side by side on a blonde and the AG was the hands down winner.

But if it comes down to not having the time to brew of brewing a DME based beer, I'll brew.

I'm on the same page my friend, every two or three batches I do either an extract or a stove top partial mash for time reasons. Everyone, please do not start telling me how doing a partial saves me no time. I do them on the stove, they are a true partial mash/partial boil and I don't have to lug my setup up and down two flights of stairs and clean out a tun every time. Trust me, I easily save 45 minutes to an hour this way with moving my gear, setup, clean up and breakdown. Just have to have the disclaimer, as that's always the knee jerk response to anyone doing a partial to save time.

Anyway, fresh extract is key. My LHBS does a good job of turning over liquid light, but I got some of their liquid wheat the other day and I could tell it was old once I tasted the beer. More and more, I'm looking at DME for my extract needs. If I had room for it, I'd consider buying a whole bag of the stuff, but if that was the case I'd also have room to buy sacks of grain and mill my own. Ah, the joys of townhouse living!

 

[Shooter]

Yeah, I get pretty beat up on the "long primary" thing too.

The mob around here tells me that I"m an idiot for only leaving my beer in the fermenter for 2 weeks, or only for a week or more after FG is reached.

Ah well.

You, sir, are an idiot!!!

 

[Beezy]

Yeah, I get pretty beat up on the "long primary" thing too.

The mob around here tells me that I"m an idiot for only leaving my beer in the fermenter for 2 weeks, or only for a week or more after FG is reached.

Ah well.

Really? I was told by many to leave it 4 weeks in primary. I do 3 until I feel the need to change.

 

[Jubilee]

I spoke with a local brewery owner in the tasting room yesterday. Their old 20 gal setup is on display, and I was asking questions about it. Told her I was about to go AG and she made a reference to light shining down from heaven regarding the differences. So FWIW I'm looking forward to it!

 

[Beezy]

There is a new brewery here that uses extract I have heard. That just seems weird to me to use it commercially.

 

[Bigscience]

There is a new brewery here that uses extract I have heard. That just seems weird to me to use it commercially.

Its funny you say that because I went to a brewery that when I had their sampler I kept telling my wife "man, this tastes like these guys use extract!". Then about 6 months later the Munton's rep came to our club meeting and the topic of commercial use of extract came up. I told him about this place and he confirmed that in fact they do use extract. I do not see how the use of extract is a commercially viable option. Maybe if you can pay a brewer way less or if you are capacity limited.

 

[Beezy]

Its funny you say that because I went to a brewery that when I had their sampler I kept telling my wife "man, this tastes like these guys use extract!". Then about 6 months later the Munton's rep came to our club meeting and the topic of commercial use of extract came up. I told him about this place and he confirmed that in fact they do use extract. I do not see how the use of extract is a commercially viable option. Maybe if you can pay a brewer way less or if you are capacity limited.

I dunno apparently the same brewery does 15 gallon batches. Why even bother going commercial? You can't possibly quit your day job with that capacity. There are a few like that that are commercial hobbyists. They usually make extreme beers that would appeal to .01% of the population. Maybe I can buy their equipment when they go under in a few lol.

 

[ILBMF]

I went all grain a couple of months ago. I have continued to brew mainly my IPA for the most part and in my case...the AG is heads and shoulders above the partial mash (5 lbs grain, 6 lbs Munton's ex light DME) I no longer have that slight weird twang taste, almost metallic taste or something. The beer color is lighter and it just tastes ready sooner.

 

[CidahMastah]

Yeah, I get pretty beat up on the "long primary" thing too.

The mob around here tells me that I"m an idiot for only leaving my beer in the fermenter for 2 weeks, or only for a week or more after FG is reached.

Ah well.

Stop thinking for yourself.... sheesh - you could end up being different from the rest!

 

[Yooper]

Really? I was told by many to leave it 4 weeks in primary. I do 3 until I feel the need to change.

I've never gone 4 weeks, as I don't see the need. If the beer is at FG and has been for a week or so, and the beer is clear, then why wait? I mean, sure the whole "yeast cleaning up after itself" is a valid theory, but it certainly doesn't take weeks and weeks- more like 48 hours after FG is reached at the most. Once the beer is clear, and has been at FG for at least 5 days, nothing "magical" happens in the fermenter.

I believe strongly that a well made beer (proper yeast pitching amounts, proper temperature control, proper ingredients) won't create a ton of flavors in the first place that need time to "clean up" (aside from diacetyl and acetaldehyde). Some beers, like my oatmeal stout, DO need a bit longer for the flavors to meld but that can happen in the keg/bottle. Two weeks is still plenty of time in my opinion.

I also have seen a few brewpubs that use extract. It's more expensive to purchase extract, BUT the equipment is cheaper. No MLT, no HLT, etc. So, the cost savings at first can be significant.

I've had some excellent extract beers, and some awful AG beers. A good brewer can make an excellent beer out of AG or extract. But in my experience, there is a bit of a different in taste between AG and extract. Not bad- I'm not saying that extract doesn't taste really good if in a well made beer. But it IS different.

That reminds me of an analogy I use often. I make spaghetti sauce lots of different ways, depending on how much time I have. I also make beer.
To my mind:
Hunts spaghetti sauce in a can = Cooper's prehopped kits
Jarred sauce with adding stuff = extract kit
Homemade sauce, starting with canned tomato sauce/paste= partial mash
Homemade sauce, starting with fresh tomatoes= AG brewing

Now, you can make some pretty good spaghetti sauce with canned tomato paste and your own seasoning, and it can be better than people who start with whole tomatoes and make it from there. But the best sauce is always made by the best sauce maker, and it's rarely from the canned stuff.

Same with beer. The best brewer can make an excellent beer with extract and partial mash. But usually, there IS a difference that is noticeable. That's not a bad thing, it just is.

 

[AnOldUR]

. . . Two weeks is still plenty of time in my opinion.

Yeah, but if two is good, isn't four better.

 

[doctorRobert]

Really? I wouldn't expect to taste much difference if ANY at all. It is the same process as when you are using extract, you just get more room to customize your beers with temps. So I would accept the arguement that your beers might come out drier...but that is if you choose it to be that way.

So yes it will taste different since you have more freedom, but saying "extract beers taste worse than all grain" as a general rule is not valid.

The difference is in control. You can control attenuation through mash temp.

You also have more control is the base grains.

So there can be a HUGE difference in taste, if you exercise the tools the all grain brewer has than the extract brewer does not.

 

[cadarnell]

Hunts spaghetti sauce in a can = Cooper's prehopped kits
Jarred sauce with adding stuff = extract kit
Homemade sauce, starting with canned tomato sauce/paste= partial mash
Homemade sauce, starting with fresh tomatoes= AG brewing

excellent analogy ...

 

[Beezy]

I've never gone 4 weeks, as I don't see the need. If the beer is at FG and has been for a week or so, and the beer is clear, then why wait? I mean, sure the whole "yeast cleaning up after itself" is a valid theory, but it certainly doesn't take weeks and weeks- more like 48 hours after FG is reached at the most. Once the beer is clear, and has been at FG for at least 5 days, nothing "magical" happens in the fermenter.

I believe strongly that a well made beer (proper yeast pitching amounts, proper temperature control, proper ingredients) won't create a ton of flavors in the first place that need time to "clean up" (aside from diacetyl and acetaldehyde). Some beers, like my oatmeal stout, DO need a bit longer for the flavors to meld but that can happen in the keg/bottle. Two weeks is still plenty of time in my opinion.

I also have seen a few brewpubs that use extract. It's more expensive to purchase extract, BUT the equipment is cheaper. No MLT, no HLT, etc. So, the cost savings at first can be significant.

I've had some excellent extract beers, and some awful AG beers. A good brewer can make an excellent beer out of AG or extract. But in my experience, there is a bit of a different in taste between AG and extract. Not bad- I'm not saying that extract doesn't taste really good if in a well made beer. But it IS different.

That reminds me of an analogy I use often. I make spaghetti sauce lots of different ways, depending on how much time I have. I also make beer.
To my mind:
Hunts spaghetti sauce in a can = Cooper's prehopped kits
Jarred sauce with adding stuff = extract kit
Homemade sauce, starting with canned tomato sauce/paste= partial mash
Homemade sauce, starting with fresh tomatoes= AG brewing

Now, you can make some pretty good spaghetti sauce with canned tomato paste and your own seasoning, and it can be better than people who start with whole tomatoes and make it from there. But the best sauce is always made by the best sauce maker, and it's rarely from the canned stuff.

Same with beer. The best brewer can make an excellent beer with extract and partial mash. But usually, there IS a difference that is noticeable. That's not a bad thing, it just is.

I was having fun with my sauces for a while and was using fresh tomatoes and herbs where I could. Same thing with beer. If it takes me all day to make I am perfectly fine because it's fun for me. I wait all week to brew on the weekend I don't want it to be over in 2 hours.

I hear ya on the time. I go by weeks because I do everything on the weekend. 2 weeks might not be enough for some beers so I might as well leave it the extra week. 4 weeks ya I don't see it and the pros certainly don't do it. They at least get the yeast out of there. Whatever works. I feel like I am not learning anything yet because my beers are turning out good haha.

 

[waddsworth]

Well yoop,

Apparently we are part of the snobby elitest AG brewers, selling the Emperor's new clothing.

Haha, the difference between Yoop's response and yours is tact. I've brewed 75 gallons AG so far this year, and I've loved all of them. My beers have consistently improved over time, and I just attributed the improvement when I went to AG as just being a part of that linear progression. Without doing side-by-side batches for myself, I can't say for sure about twang. But even if I confirmed the "twang"for myself, I still wouldn't dare tell somebody else that they have an "inferior palate" simply because their experience differs from mine.

If that makes me a "*********", or shows "inexperience" on my part, then so be it.

 

[DannPM]

To my mind:
Hunts spaghetti sauce in a can = Cooper's prehopped kits
Jarred sauce with adding stuff = extract kit
Homemade sauce, starting with canned tomato sauce/paste= partial mash
Homemade sauce, starting with fresh tomatoes= AG brewing

Excellent comparison!!!

 

[CidahMastah]

Haha, the difference between Yoop's response and yours is tact. I've brewed 75 gallons AG so far this year, and I've loved all of them. My beers have consistently improved over time, and I just attributed the improvement when I went to AG as just being a part of that linear progression. Without doing side-by-side batches for myself, I can't say for sure about twang. But even if I confirmed the "twang"for myself, I still wouldn't dare tell somebody else that they have an "inferior palate" simply because their experience differs from mine.

If that makes me a "*********", or shows "inexperience" on my part, then so be it.

again with your running at the mouth and trying to stir up an argument.

I never said anything about inferior anything. I made a benign statement that some people may not have the palate to pick it up. And you ... took your poetic license and started to run your mouth from there, claiming I said it. You took it personal.

Just give it a rest.

Take some time and read the other people's posts (try to learn something from them) - you will notice they are very similar to what I said.

and yes, I still believe my previous assessment applies.

 

[waddsworth]

I never said anything about inferior anything. I made a benign statement that some people may not have the palate to pick it up.

So... not having a palate to "pick it up" is a superior palate? Or perhaps its a "different, but exactly equal" palate? Is that what you meant?

But whatever. Taken in the context of your other posts it seems that what you wrote is not what you meant. Unfortunately, you wrote it and I read it and responded to it. If I offended you, I apologize.