AG brewing taste differences, in general?

[Germelli1]

GROUP HUG TIME

 

[CidahMastah]

Germelli - ha .. good god man !

well played sir!

 

[CidahMastah]

So... not having a palate to "pick it up" is a superior palate? Or perhaps its a "different, but exactly equal" palate? Is that what you meant?

My statement was very simple and without hidden meaning.

Your palate is your palate; it is determined by your genes. It is like describing hair color, a widows peak, etc. It is not insulting to say that someone might not be able to taste something based on their palate's ability to do so. It might simply be the difference between a regular taster, and a super taster.

I could generally always taste extract, just as yooper said she always could. Didn't mean the beer was bad. However, to me extract does have a discernible taste. It tastes like extract. I prefer my AG beers that don't have that flavor.

+1 on the extract being fresh in helping the brew out. But for me the taste was still there, just less noticeable.

 

[Germelli1]

My statement was very simple and without hidden meaning.

Your palate is your palate; it is determined by your genes. It is like describing hair color, a widows peak, etc. It is not insulting to say that someone might not be able to taste something based on their palate's ability to do so. It might simply be the difference between a regular taster, and a super taster.

I could generally always taste extract, just as yooper said she always could. Didn't mean the beer was bad. However, to me extract does have a discernible taste. It tastes like extract. I prefer my AG beers that don't have that flavor.

+1 on the extract being fresh in helping the brew out. But for me the taste was still there, just less noticeable.

I want to get input from someone on the other side of the issue. If I were to brew the same recipe prepared from both extract and all grain to do a side by side comparison, would a Mild Brown ale be a satisfactory recipe? It is low alcohol, around 3.5% so it wouldn't mask any flavors in that regard, but it does contain a small amount of chocolate malt, which may in fact mask flavors.

What are your thoughts? I am not trying to prove anything to anyone but myself if I do do this test!

 

[doctorRobert]

I want to get input from someone on the other side of the issue. If I were to brew the same recipe prepared from both extract and all grain to do a side by side comparison, would a Mild Brown ale be a satisfactory recipe? It is low alcohol, around 3.5% so it wouldn't mask any flavors in that regard, but it does contain a small amount of chocolate malt, which may in fact mask flavors.

What are your thoughts? I am not trying to prove anything to anyone but myself if I do do this test!

The thing is, you won't be able to get the "same recipe". Most of the time, you won't know exactly what kind of malt was used in making the extract. You also don't know what temp they mashed at - so that's a pretty big deal. Forget about the mysterious 'extract twang' - the increased control is the biggest difference between all grain and extract. So there will be differences in the beer beyond your control. The other thing with extract is that you're limited to just a couple basemalts - that's the biggest reason to go all grain.

And I don't believe there is an 'extract' twang. I'm in the process of reading 'designing great beers' and you'd be surprised how many extract beers are the ones winning awards at NHC. If these beers had any twang at all they wouldn't do so well.

I'm all grain except for my hefe's. My extract Hefe went to the 2nd round of the NHC this year. Pretty good for a beer with twang. One of the judges, not only assumed the beer was all grain, but that I didn't even use corn sugar to carbonate but krausened it instead.

 

[Germelli1]

The thing is, you won't be able to get the "same recipe". Most of the time, you won't know exactly what kind of malt was used in making the extract. You also don't know what temp they mashed at - so that's a pretty big deal. Forget about the mysterious 'extract twang' - the increased control is the biggest difference between all grain and extract. So there will be differences in the beer beyond your control. The other thing with extract is that you're limited to just a couple basemalts - that's the biggest reason to go all grain.

And I don't believe there is an 'extract' twang. I'm in the process of reading 'designing great beers' and you'd be surprised how many extract beers are the ones winning awards at NHC. If these beers had any twang at all they wouldn't do so well.

I'm all grain except for my hefe's. My extract Hefe went to the 2nd round of the NHC this year. Pretty good for a beer with twang. One of the judges, not only assumed the beer was all grain, but that I didn't even use corn sugar to carbonate but krausened it instead.

I agree with you on extract not having a percievable taste, but I would like to do a comparision for shts and giggles. I know you can't replicate recipes exactly between extract and all grain, but I am thinking of just brewing something with extra light DME vs. either 2-row or MO, same specialty bill and just comparing them. I am not looking for 100% scientific data, just something to base my opinions on with more weight than "I have brewed both extract and all grain, but never the same beer with identical fermentation/yeast conditions."

 

[CidahMastah]

I want to get input from someone on the other side of the issue. If I were to brew the same recipe prepared from both extract and all grain to do a side by side comparison, would a Mild Brown ale be a satisfactory recipe? It is low alcohol, around 3.5% so it wouldn't mask any flavors in that regard, but it does contain a small amount of chocolate malt, which may in fact mask flavors.

What are your thoughts? I am not trying to prove anything to anyone but myself if I do do this test!

You mean brewer who thinks there isn't a taste difference?



The only person you have to prove it to is yourself.

I think when you go head to head with any style it will be noticeable. I compared extract vs. AG with several brews including a Torpedo clone, Arrogant clone and a porter. When I tasted each I could tell. My wife picked out extract each time as well. Again, both brews were still good, but the AG really does stand out to me.

EDIT: For the record in the beginning I wanted to skip AG because i thought the extract turned out a pretty good brew for not as "complicated" of a process as AG. Tasting the difference head to head made me go from extract to AG. My first three AG batches were BIAB, then I got nuts and did an electric kettle with a basic controller. BIAB taught me AG brewing isn't that much more work, or complicated.

 

[CidahMastah]

And I don't believe there is an 'extract' twang.

the "twang" is an expression and not literally a twang like a tangy spritely off flavor. (at least for me)

 

[Germelli1]

You mean brewer who thinks there isn't a taste difference?



The only person you have to prove it to is yourself.

I think when you go head to head with any style it will be noticeable. I compared extract vs. AG with several brews including a Torpedo clone, Arrogant clone and a porter. When I tasted each I could tell. My wife picked out extract each time as well. Again, both brews were still good, but the AG really does stand out to me.

That is exactly what I mean! Even as I sit here and argue that I havn't brewed an extract batch with the "twang" since my first 5 or so batches, I want to have something more to go on. I am very open minded and loved to be proved wrong, especially by myself haha. I want to do a decent side by side comparison where I make every variable I can identical so I have a good test for myself and really see what I think on this issue!

 

[waddsworth]

My statement was very simple and without hidden meaning.

Your palate is your palate; it is determined by your genes. It is like describing hair color, a widows peak, etc. It is not insulting to say that someone might not be able to taste something based on their palate's ability to do so. It might simply be the difference between a regular taster, and a super taster.

I could generally always taste extract, just as yooper said she always could. Didn't mean the beer was bad. However, to me extract does have a discernible taste. It tastes like extract. I prefer my AG beers that don't have that flavor.

+1 on the extract being fresh in helping the brew out. But for me the taste was still there, just less noticeable.

This looks to be the source of my misunderstanding. I view, perhaps incorrectly, a palate as something that can be (within reasonable physiological constraints, of course) trained, fine tuned, expanded etc. Its sorta like the cliche, "Its an acquired taste". So if there is a "twang", somebody should eventually be able to detect it amongst all the other flavors.

I don't know if that makes sense - but fwiw, I get where you're coming from.

In any case, my curiosity is piqued now, and I have to put an extract brew and AG on my list for a side-by-side.

 

[Jubilee]

the "twang" is an expression and not literally a twang like a tangy spritely off flavor. (at least for me)

+1. For me it just tastes like extract. Yes, I always stick my finger in the jug of extract. Can't resist!

 

[Bigscience]

I think my brewing buddy summed it up best when he said " I thought I made good beers before but I realize they weren't that great.". I think what can happen is a case of the cellar blindness were you tend to ignore flaws or weaknesses in your own beers. It's just like how ever parent thinks their kid is a genus or how everybody thinks they are a better than average driver.

I have a friend who is really into wine (yes, I don't know why we're friends). He has a large cellar, has no problem spending hundreds of dollars on a bottle and has a very well developed wine palate. But when it comes to wine that he's made, he is blind to their major flaws. I keep wanting to switch bottles on him and hear what his comments would be if he didn't know it was his baby. I feel like we would be friends if I pulled that trick though.

I forget the exact stat but I want to say that 80% of home brewers are extract. People tend to find data that will validate their current opinions and if you aren't planning on going to AG you may justify this decision by not seeing any flavor differences. The same can be said for those who have gone to AG and want to justify the costs of equipment.

I guess what it all comes down to is you brew beer for you and your friends and if you like how it tastes and you can't taste the twang, then there is no twang.

 

[jkarp]

Extract twang, myth or not, I recommend long-time AG brewers give an extract brew a shot sometime.

I got way behind in brewing, didn't have a lot of weekend to play with, and figured I'd try an extract lager for the hell of it. 1st extract in over 4 years. 2 hour brew day, start to finish, and the beer was outstanding.

I think many (most?) brewers don't realize their early extract brews were wanting for lack of experience more than ingredients.

 

[CidahMastah]

Extract twang, myth or not, I recommend long-time AG brewers give an extract brew a shot sometime.

I got way behind in brewing, didn't have a lot of weekend to play with, and figured I'd try an extract lager for the hell of it. 1st extract in over 4 years. 2 hour brew day, start to finish, and the beer was outstanding.

I think many (most?) brewers don't realize their early extract brews were wanting for lack of experience more than ingredients.

I am just too damn cheap to run in and buy extract for a brew now that I have been fortunate enough to get in on bulk grain buys

Have you tried back to back batches as a time savings? I do back to back 10G batches on the same day does help me and my buddy save time, have a good variety, and a fantastic pipeline. When my buddy doesn't show up, the pipeline gets insane...

 

[ILBMF]

I..........I...........Jeez........I love beer!