Achieving a silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel (a la Hill Farmstead)?

[JKoravos]

I feel it's a very soft mouthfeel, and "pillowy" is a great descriptor IMHO.

I'm sure a number of factors play into it but I feel the wheat/oats piece can play a lot into that mouthfeel. Jack's Abby's Leisure Time Lager has a pillowy mouthfeel that is similar to HF.

Sorry, it's the engineer in me, but way not just say 'soft'? Pillowy makes me think of polyester stuffing.

 

[MrFeltimo]

ive been using GNO in my brews lately, about 7%.
this stuff has always lent an EXCEPTIONAL mouth feel.

 

[Callacave]

Shaun doesn't use Oats, Flaked Barley or Wheat in his standard hoppy offerings. There are other things at play that I wish I understood better.

Check out the website and you'll see he lists for say Edward, just Pale and Caramel malts.

I believe it's a combo of well water, pH, use of more calcium chloride than you'd typically expect, higher FG than typical, and whatever magic he's got make the most amazing beers I've ever had.

I'm lucky that my wife is from that area, so we visit family on occasion. It's been a while, and can't wait to get up there again.

 

[Weezy]

Flaked barley and oats at 3-5% (I think they're better than wheat imho), moderate attenuating yeast, and calcium chloride in otherwise soft water will go a long way towards a creamy beer experience.

Yeast is critical yet still a mystery, until we've tried and learned them all. WLP008 has become my house yeast for most things. mash an IPA very low (146) with few unfermentables for a dry beer on a moderate attenuating yeast makes for great effect. I'm not saying every should run out and do this, but recognize that lots of things can lead to the effect you're looking for.

 

[kaz4121]

Sorry, it's the engineer in me, but way not just say 'soft'? Pillowy makes me think of polyester stuffing.

Don't be that guy. I am an engineer too, but I know there is more than one way to describe something.

Polyester stuffing is light, fluffy, airy, and soft (read: pillowy).

 

[kaz4121]

Shaun doesn't use Oats, Flaked Barley or Wheat in his standard hoppy offerings. There are other things at play that I wish I understood better...

This was the point I was trying to make a page or so ago. There is more than one way to achieve that mouthfeel, but malt bill is not how Shaun achieves his.

What we know (for certain) is:

• higher FG

What is speculated is:

• higher calcium chloride levels (water chemistry in general)
• lower carbonation levels
• natural carbonation
• dialed in pH at all levels of brewing

The pH of Edward was not out of the ordinary at 4.4.

The magic is certainly in the mash.

 

[Braufessor]

I have been honing a basic IPA/APA recipe down and am looking forward to getting it right where I want it and then experimenting with the water. I think the water is the key thing here that differentiates the "typical" east coast IPA and west coast IPA.

The grainbill I have been using is:
92% 2row
2% each of Wheat, Flaked oats, caramel 20 and Honey malt.
**I like the idea of golden naked oats and/or flaked barley too.

Generally, I have been using Conan yeast.

I have been using RO water and going 275 Sulfate and 30 Chloride. It makes a great beer. But, I have been able to sample a lot of the vermont beers, and it does not have that feel to it.

When I get my recipe right where I want it, I am going to brew 3 beers on the same weekend. All 3 exactly the same but with water differences:

Beer 1 - 275 sulfate/30 chloride
Beer 2 - 150 sulfate/150 chloride
Beer 3 - 30 sulfate/275 chloride

Just to see what the different extremes and middle ground do. If I was going to randomly guess at something and try one thing, that was different, I might go 100-125 sulfate and 175-200 chloride.

mash ph I would be shooting for that 5.3-5.4 range.

All RO water.

At any rate, I hope to find time for this experiment in the near future.

 

[Barley_Bob]

^@Braufessor awesome (and daring) idea. Bravo.

I've never had Hill Farmstead. I'm not even close to being close to within its distribution. However, I think I can contribute a little on this.

I've been chasing a silky, light (dare I say "pillowy") mouthfeel for a while, especially after trying 3F's Gumballhead. Wow, does that have great mouthfeel (if anyone can compare that one to Hill Farmstead's mouthfeel, I'd be really interested).

Anyway, I use red wheat, rolled oats, and/or rye (often a combination of two), in almost everything, and it does really help. Recently, though, I did a German pale ale (kottbusser), that traditionally has wheat (I used rye) and oats, but I also accidentally undershot my carbonation by a lot. I was aiming for 2.2, and I ended up at 1.9 because I ended up with a lot more beer than I planned. It's plenty carbonated and has a fine head, but the carbonation is a lot more tight, with smaller bubbles, a more fluffy head, and it has a fantastic mouthfeel (round is the word I like to use).

So, even though I've been using the adjuncts we're talking about for a long time to chase this dream, it really was the carbonation that got me there. I of course don't know if I have Hill Farmstead quality mouthfeel, but I think this one is pretty darn impressive. I can't wait to try it on the APA I have fermenting now.

 

[Callacave]

This was the point I was trying to make a page or so ago. There is more than one way to achieve that mouthfeel, but malt bill is not how Shaun achieves his.

What we know (for certain) is:

• higher FG

What is speculated is:

• higher calcium chloride levels (water chemistry in general)
• lower carbonation levels
• natural carbonation
• dialed in pH at all levels of brewing

The pH of Edward was not out of the ordinary at 4.4.

The magic is certainly in the mash.

Agreed....and he doesn't naturally carb in his kegs. Only in most of his bottled brews. This has been confirmed already.

He already said that he favors more calcium chloride than usual in his own cryptic way.

It's also known he's a stickler on pH in every part of the process.

I'm not sure about the lower carb levels. I actually think a normal or slightly higher carb might help with that soft/pillowy/airy mouthfeel.

I've used WY1318 a handful of times since this is speculated to be the yeast he uses, but I'm starting to believe it's not.

 

[FourSeasonAngler]

My $0.02:

Relatively soft water with the majority of the mineral balanced towards Calcium and Chloride.

A yeast that leaves a soft texture to the beer like Denny's Fav 50.

Proper carbonation that reduces carbonic bite.

Lots of hops and fresh fresh fresh or well taken care of post-harvest.

 

[Braufessor]

Hadn't really thought of Denny's yeast... that would be a good one. It does leave a "soft" beer and it sure stays cloudy as well.

 

[tagz]

I have been honing a basic IPA/APA recipe down and am looking forward to getting it right where I want it and then experimenting with the water. I think the water is the key thing here that differentiates the "typical" east coast IPA and west coast IPA.

The grainbill I have been using is:
92% 2row
2% each of Wheat, Flaked oats, caramel 20 and Honey malt.
**I like the idea of golden naked oats and/or flaked barley too.

Generally, I have been using Conan yeast.

I have been using RO water and going 275 Sulfate and 30 Chloride. It makes a great beer. But, I have been able to sample a lot of the vermont beers, and it does not have that feel to it.

When I get my recipe right where I want it, I am going to brew 3 beers on the same weekend. All 3 exactly the same but with water differences:

Beer 1 - 275 sulfate/30 chloride
Beer 2 - 150 sulfate/150 chloride
Beer 3 - 30 sulfate/275 chloride

Just to see what the different extremes and middle ground do. If I was going to randomly guess at something and try one thing, that was different, I might go 100-125 sulfate and 175-200 chloride.

mash ph I would be shooting for that 5.3-5.4 range.

All RO water.

At any rate, I hope to find time for this experiment in the near future.

Make sure you write that experiment up!

 

[The_Gerbil_Brewer]

I second that. Very curious on to the perceived differences.

 

[lbond2]

One more note...I can for sure tell a significant difference in creamy mouth feel when pushing beer with beer gas (70% nitrogen 30% Co2) as compared to 100% Co2.

 

[nhwrecker]

Very interesting thread, now that I've just found it. Here's another that discussed similar ideas a few years ago

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=343949

 

[The_Gerbil_Brewer]

So am lucky enough to be st Nerax when they tapped the firkin of Edward. Carbonation, as expected, was low and the pillowiness of the mouth feel decreased. Based o. Grain bill discussion already and this it lead me to believe that water profile is the dominant aspect with the "right" carbonation coming into play as well.

 

[ATXWolfBrew]

I think we are all getting close here and I like the ideas that keep coming. I have been doing a quite of bit of playing with my water, pH and grain bill to really hone in on my hoppy beers. I wouldn't say that I am trying to replicate what HF and TH are producing as far as mouthfeel, pillowy carb, etc, but they were definitely inspiration. Some of the most drinkable beers I have had to date.

FWIW, I recently brewed a single-hop Nelson Saison, using Yeast Bay's Saison/Brett blend (3rd Gen)...75% pilsner, 15% flaked oats, some white wheat and carapils for body. Low IBU, intense whirlpool and huge dry hop.

Anyways, the fruitiness of the hops and the yeast blend made it a seriously enjoyable beer, with a super creamy mouthfeel and prickly carb...mild bitterness but fades immediately and no real hop bite. It honestly went quicker than any other keg I have had on tap in 5 years of brewing and my friends tore it up. I can attribute this to locked in pH, adjusted water profile and obviously oats/wheat. Interestingly enough, I split this batch and the other 5G (using Conan) really didn't achieve what I wanted, so I still need to work on that profile.

So I really (obviously) agree with Shaun in that you have to develop and hone in on a water profile that really fits each individual beer (and yeast!-this is huge). I think that is the key. So in the future, I will stick to something like this for the hoppier, fruity saisons, at least with this 'house' yeast blend...and continue to work on the Pale Ale profiles (maybe try ~180 SO4 and ~120Cl)

This profile was using moderately hard Austin water. Using soft RO water could be even more beneficial.

Ca: 74
Mg: 18
Na: 26
Cl: 100
SO4: 120
Mash pH: 5.35
Boil pH (throughout): 5.1
pH in fermenter: 5.1
Final product pH: 4.3

Also, FG of 1.002, so I can confirm that higher FG isn't everything.

~10psi for 1 month prior to tapping (only because I was out of town)

Again, I am no expert here and only experimenting.

PS has anyone considered higher Sodium levels (along with higher Cl) in HF's darker beers? I haven't had any of them, but from the sound of it could be possible as well.

 

[biertourist]

A lot of good ideas here on increasing mouthfeel. Glycerol is produced by some yeast strains (see French Saison) that helps with mouthfeel.

I really can't emphasize the impact that yeast can have on mouthfeel enough.

I just went to White Lab's tap room last week and tried a Porter brewed with 5 different yeast strains and was immediately and fully SHOCKED at the huge mouthfeel from White Lab's "Antwerp Ale" strain.

5 beers brewed with the same wort and 5 different yeast strains; one with hugely velvety mouthfeel.


Adam

 

[ATXWolfBrew]

Good to know about the Antwerp strain. Will definitely give it a try with my next porter.

It is interesting to see certain strains really pop with a grain bill, water profile, etc. This is where great beers become incredible beers.

 

[lowtones84]

Subbed. I haven't been able to track down any Hill Farmstead so far, but would really like to. Mouthfeel is always something I chase, and you all have piqued my interest.

 

[Feurhund]

I just happen to have a belgian pale finishing up with Antwerp ale. My next brew was going to be an alpine nelson clone. Should I go for it?

 

[ImNoExpert]

I need some of these east coast breweries to start distributing more here!

 

[Barley_Bob]

Dang, now I need to wait for Antwerp Ale to release in, what, November? BS. @biertourist just mentioned this strain to make us all miserable. Anyone know if DeKoninck can be harvested from the bottle?

EDIT - BLAM says De Koninck is bottle conditioned but not refermented in the bottle. Seems promising?

 

[Feurhund]

I got the Antwerp half price as it was expired at my LHBS. Starter got it revived and it fermented out great.

 

[kaz4121]

Yeast is important and IIRC, HF used to use Conan...not sure what they use now. Conan has been said to leave a creamy mouthfeel...

IMHO lower carbonation levels play a major roll. I've had HF more frequently at Armsby Abbey and their IPAs all seem less carbonated than your average IPA. I had an Edward back to back with a Trillium Galaxy Dry Hopped Fort Point, and the FP was noticeably more carbonated, IMHO.

In other news, my higher mash temperature (156) and increased flaked oats addition definitely improved the mouthfeel of my IPA, keeping all other variables constant (no surprise there). I used 10.5% flaked oats, and may push it a touch higher. I didn't naturally carbonate, because the more I thought about that, the less likely I believe HF does this since hop aroma is so volatile, I doubt they would push the beer back an extra week or two just to carbonate.

Looking forward to Braufessor's experiment. I am considering switching over to Conan for a less attenuating yeast (currently using WLP090) for my IPAs. Even with a higher mash temp, I ended at 1.009.

 

[FatDragon]

We don't have a ton of great beer options here in China, but last year I was down in Guangzhou with my wife in order to get her first US visa, and a local bar had Brewers & Union's Handwerk All-Day IPA out of South Africa on draft. The menu description mentioned lower-than-usual carbonation and bitterness for an IPA, and although I've had better IPAs in the States, I've been chasing that beer ever since - the lighter carb and smooth mouthfeel made for an IPA that lived up to the All-Day name. Just brewed a session IPA yesterday with 10% rye and a decent amount of caramel malts, and I'm hopeful that it'll at least come close when carbed around 1.9 volumes, but it looks like I'm gonna need to up my game by getting on the water chem bandwagon next.

 

[Barley_Bob]

I used Conan for a couple of beers, and it chews through everything. I did a wheat IPA, thinking all the extra body from 60% red wheat would stand up to Conan, but no. Obliterated. Very thin, dry beer. I mashed at 148, which I guess was my error, but I think I'm done with Conan.

I'm interested in hearing how WLP090 goes. I haven't quite gotten my hands on it. I'd like to try some of the other American strains that don't get as much attention, but I just haven't gotten to it. I really like WLP006, and I think I'm going to do an expanded run with it. I'll let you know how it goes.

@FatDragon, I'm starting to think that crystal has more to do with it than I thought. I generally just stick to base malts, but I think that crystal does more than I wanted to admit. I'm going to try working some in too, even if it's just C10 or C15.

 

[Braufessor]

I just ordered some Denny's yeast..... gonna try that.

In regard to crystal - I have been using a bit of crystal 20 and also some honey malt. gives a hint of color, some sweetness, but nothing like you get from caramel 60 or something like that.

I also use some wheat and flaked oats.

92% 2 row, 2% each of cara20, honey, oats and wheat..... still nice and light, but some sweetness and mouthfeel and body.

Sampling a Citra/centennial/cascade/comet/ahtanum pale ale right now. 12 days old. 1 day on the gas..... I think it is really quite good and would lend itself to some experimenting for this project. I might retry it with some water adjustments, slightly higher mash and denny's yeast.

 

[biertourist]

Dang, now I need to wait for Antwerp Ale to release in, what, November? BS. @biertourist just mentioned this strain to make us all miserable.

What an incredibly dark and depressing outlook you have on the world...

I think you missed the point. I'll make it very simple for you: the point is, yeast strain matters when it comes to mouth feel. (Not that you need the Antwerp strain) -no need to wait.

No need for "BS" comments.

 

[biertourist]

I used Conan for a couple of beers, and it chews through everything. I did a wheat IPA, thinking all the extra body from 60% red wheat would stand up to Conan, but no. Obliterated. Very thin, dry beer.

Attenuation and mouth feel do not have a 1:1 relationship.

See the French Saison strains for an extreme example; there are few saccharomyces strains that have higher attenuation and will dry out a beer more but beers made with this yeast strain still have a nice creamy mouthfeel from the yeast's production of glycerol.

Attenuation / Final Gravity is only one factor.


A great article from the Journal of the UK-based Institute of Brewing and Distilling that goes into the physical and chemical parameters which may contribute to beer mouth feel: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1993.tb01143.x/pdf


It's interesting that that article mentions that high molecular weight proteins and specifically the colloids formed from them are highly important for beer "mellowness" and "palate fullness". -The most famous such colloid would be chill haze; something that may certainly be present in Hill Farmstead beers given their cloudiness and huge hopping levels.

-US 2 row malts have much higher protein levels -as protein conversion continues in the mashtun we see large proteins break down into peptides and eventually amino acids. Doing a high temp single infusion mash with typical high DP US 2 row -and doing a shorter than normal mash would both keep more less fermentable staches around (Dextrins) AND more of these larger proteins around -we know that thinks like Flaked barley, which has been mentioned on this thread quite a few times now will also introduce more protein. Having a lot of these large molecular weight proteins AND dextrins AND then chill haze colloids that form by having those large molecular weight proteins in solution in the presence of large amounts of hop-derived polyphenols WOULD result in lots of protein/tannins colloids being formed.

-De Clerck and Narziss both agree that higher protein malt will increase the amount of high molecular weight proteins in the finished beer so I find it super interesting that combining crazy american high hop levels along with our high protein / enzyme malt (which europe considers inferior for brewing and I'd generally agree for all malt beers, especially strong ones), would be uniquely well-suited to creating these very silky / pillowy yet extremely hoppy beers. -If anything should be an American beer specialty, this is it.


On the subject of Beta Glucans / Oats, the article seems to agree with another poster that felt that flaked barley helped out much more. Beta Glucans certainly add to the viscosity but seemed to have only a mild coorelation to "sensory viscosity"; personally I definitely find an improvement, but a trained sensory panel is hard to agree with; I get the feeling that they're making pretty detailed distinctions.


Adam