acetylaldehyde and my ruined life!!!

[weaselburner]

Well, here i go. I figured that I'd just sit around leeching all your good info without ever registering but a couple months into my brewing life i find myself irreparably concerned about my beer and in need of specific advice. I just bottled a nut brown only to find when i tasted my hydrometer sample that it has the same off flavor as the baltic porter i bottled a week ago. It tastes very tart (yes. somewhat like green apples) which i think is probably acetylaldehyde as apposed to contamination because it was made with completely different equipment than my porter was and i am maniacal about sanitation. I let my brown (OG 1.069) ferment for about 12 days and my porter (OG 1.088) ferment for about 14 days and didn't use a secondary for either. I have since learned that transferring to a secondary will help mellow out the flavor of acetylaldehyde in my beers but my question is whether or not they will disappear from bottle aging alone at at this point (since I've moved the beer off of most of the yeast that will help break down this undesirable flavor). The beers are so tart that they're almost undrinkable at this point (at least to me) and i'm beginning to wonder if i should just dump them and reclaim my bottles for a new batch of something delicious. I used Nottingham yeast on both and don't know if that perhaps is a contributor to my problem as the cascadian dark ale (1.065 OG) i made with american ale yeast had none of this flavor even as a flat hydrometer sample. Any direction or advice on what to do would really be appreciated. I hate the idea of just dumping my work down the drain but i also don't want to sit on a beer that is so sour if I've missed my window for aging out the off flavor. It's very tart and seems seems in need of a miracle to be palatable. HELP!! Thanks, guys!

 

[unionrdr]

For beers of that gravity,12-14 days is no where near enough. Besides needing time to clean up those off flavors & settle out more in primary. Rushing it off the yeast is an old myth long since dispelled on here.
not to mention rushing into bottling/kegging,then trying them young & wondering what's wrong. Leave them sit a few weeks more,& try again. It may take a while to get good,but it isn't nesessarily a dumper.

 

[Revvy]

For beers of that gravity,12-14 days is no where near enough. Besides needing time to clean up those off flavors & settle out more in primary. Rushing it off the yeast is an old myth long since dispelled on here.
not to mention rushing into bottling/kegging,then trying them young & wondering what's wrong. Leave them sit a few weeks more,& try again. It may take a while to get good,but it isn't nesessarily a dumper.

Yup, you rushed. acetylaldehyde= "Green Beer." = too soon to be tasting it.

Just give it more time. If it's not bottled yet give it about 8 weeks in the bottle, and come back to tell us how magnificient it now is.

My average grav beers are a minimum 8 weeks from grain to glass, four of those in primary. Then 4 at 70 degrees in the bottles.

As to rushing it off the yeast, there's been a shift. I suggest you read THIS thread, it's become the "uber discussion" on this topic thread.

To Secondary or Not? John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff Weigh In .

Most everyone on this forum has ventured their opinions on the subject many many many many many many many many many many times, and most of them have ended up in the above thread. If you really do want opinions, and even some facts and citations, and articles, podcasts and other things on this topic, hit that thread.

Quite a lot of us leave our beers in primary 3-4 weeks.

And all the reasons why and everything else you can imagine is covered in that thread. Including the whole history of the debate/discussion and even the change in Palmer's view of it (which I think was greatly influenced by this forum. We were the first to openly discuss it, and to openly experiment with it, and to call shenanagans on the yeast/autolysis fear.

This is the most talked about topic on here, there's a ton of information already covering it here, not just in the above thread but all over the place.

 

[unionrdr]

Oh yeah,I def remember how heated that lil discussion got.But I still stand behind my conclusions & the ones we eventually came to when the fur & dust settled...

 

[seabass07]

It's definitely acetaldehyde. If you bottle with sugar, you will get that for the first week or two in the bottle. The yeast produce acetaldehyde and then convert that to ethanol. For me, it is always there if I use sugar and it goes away after a week. Definitely no reason to worry. I've found that using dme for carbonation keeps it from happening, but it will go away either way, so no reason to change anything.

 

[Revvy]

Oh yeah,I def remember how heated that lil discussion got.But I still stand behind my conclusions & the ones we eventually came to when the fur & dust settled...

So, inquiring minds want to know, have you cracked the burton yet?

 

[weaselburner]

I didn't intend to say that i was trying to get it off of the yeast (although i've started up on that thread you linked and there's some GREAT info in there). I was actually concerned that i might have too little yeast at this point to take care of the acetylaldehyde situation since i pulled it out of the carboy so soon. I yield to experience though. if you guys think it'll clean itself up in a couple weeks in the bottle, i'll stick it out Also, you said for avg gravity beers you do 8 weeks in total for fermentation and bottle aging. I think next ups gonna be a big mean beer (imperial stout) any suggestion on total time for a HG brew?

 

[seabass07]

It will! There's enough yeast in there to carbonate, so there is definitely enough to take care of the acetaldehyde.

 

[unionrdr]

Yeah,leaving it on the yeast for another 3-7 days after a stable FG is reached is for clean up & settling out more.
@ revvy,we'll be cracking the Burton & the summer ale in a couple hours when our son gets here. I've been chompin at the bit trying to be patient till this glorious day! Just like KISS,gettin late,I just can't wait!...

 

[passedpawn]

I didn't intend to say that i was trying to get it off of the yeast (although i've started up on that thread you linked and there's some GREAT info in there). I was actually concerned that i might have too little yeast at this point to take care of the acetylaldehyde situation since i pulled it out of the carboy so soon. I yield to experience though. if you guys think it'll clean itself up in a couple weeks in the bottle, i'll stick it out Also, you said for avg gravity beers you do 8 weeks in total for fermentation and bottle aging. I think next ups gonna be a big mean beer (imperial stout) any suggestion on total time for a HG brew?

Revvy's right. Yeast will clean it up. I've had this before, twice. I think making a quick starter of any yeast and adding it while active would be a good idea.

 

[rexbanner]

For beers of that gravity,12-14 days is no where near enough. Besides needing time to clean up those off flavors & settle out more in primary. Rushing it off the yeast is an old myth long since dispelled on here.
not to mention rushing into bottling/kegging,then trying them young & wondering what's wrong. Leave them sit a few weeks more,& try again. It may take a while to get good,but it isn't nesessarily a dumper.

Some people like long primaries, but most fermentations finish within ten days, including any cleaning up. Leaving it on the yeast for another 2-3 weeks isn't going to do anything. What really matters is the gravity of your beer and time after brew date. It can sit in a keg, it can sit in bottles, but if it needs age, age it however you wish.

 

[unionrdr]

My 1st was the only one to finish/clean up quick,& that was 12 days. The rest were higher gravity then that one. like 1.046 to 1.065OG. Def took more than 10 days to finish & clean/clear up. Brewing is like pit bbq,it's done when it's done. When it's clear & tastes good,it's ready to bottle or keg. I learned not to rush things. That never comes out good. Instead of getting great,it just gets drinkable/desent.

 

[Revvy]

Some people like long primaries, but most fermentations finish within ten days, including any cleaning up. Leaving it on the yeast for another 2-3 weeks isn't going to do anything. What really matters is the gravity of your beer and time after brew d

Even PALMER WAAAAYYYYY back in the first edition and despite the autolysis fear, disagrees with you.....

Leaving an ale beer in the primary fermentor for a total of 2-3 weeks (instead of just the one week most canned kits recommend), will provide time for the conditioning reactions and improve the beer. This extra time will also let more sediment settle out before bottling, resulting in a clearer beer and easier pouring. And, three weeks in the primary fermentor is usually not enough time for off-flavors to occur.

 

[unionrdr]

That was one of my conclusions from that previously linked discussion as well. It wasn't to hard for me to figure it out from observations of my own. Good call revs.

 

[helibrewer]

Yeah, even "Beechwood aged Budweiser" gets more than 10 days

 

[Yooper]

Originally Posted by How To Brew
Leaving an ale beer in the primary fermentor for a total of 2-3 weeks (instead of just the one week most canned kits recommend), will provide time for the conditioning reactions and improve the beer. This extra time will also let more sediment settle out before bottling, resulting in a clearer beer and easier pouring. And, three weeks in the primary fermentor is usually not enough time for off-flavors to occur.

I still am sticking with 10-14 days in the fermenter (unless I'm dryhopping and sometimes it may be 21 days), and so far I've had good beer. I'm in that "2-3 weeks" Palmer mentioned- no where does he preach the 1 month primary. I think he's being grossly misquoted here.

Remember that off-flavors such as diacetyl are cleaned up within days, not weeks, of the beer reaching FG. Acetaldehyde, that "green apple" flavor will clean up in the bottle since priming is probably what triggered it.

 

[seabass07]

It's pretty simple. If you give it a few days after hitting fg and there are no off flavors, then it's ready. If it tastes great at 10 days, then there's no reason to leave it in primary for 2 more weeks. If it doesn't taste great, then leave it longer.

 

[unionrdr]

Long & short,yeah. I wait till I get a stable FG,however long that takes. Then give it 3-7 days to clean up & settle out more. When it tastes good,bottle it. That might be 12 days,it might be 5 weeks,depends on gravity,darkness etc ime. Beer is like pit bbq,it's done when it's done. Speaking of which,I gotta get dressed & fire up the pit.

 

[rexbanner]

Even PALMER WAAAAYYYYY back in the first edition and despite the autolysis fear, disagrees with you.....

Yeah. I mean 2-3 weeks past the ten days your fermentation took. That's not really doing anything. My biggest beer to date (a 1.100 quad) went down to 1.006 in five days. I racked it to secondary after two weeks.

Like I said, if you like long primaries, go for it. I just like to get my beer into a keg or bottle, where it is safe from light and oxygen. I've left beer in primary for nearly three months and it tasted great. But I also have had to dump two batches because airlocks dried out and they got oxidized beyond belief.

 

[weaselburner]

hmmmmm. if diacetyl tends to get cleaned up within a few days of reaching FG then perhaps i miss-diagnosed the off flavor. porter was bottled after 14 days but has been sitting for a week so maybe it's something else. inoticed a slight bit of charring on my brewpot after the boiling of the wort so maybe the tartness/tang is just charred sugar. *sigh* i'll master the brewing some day maybe

 

[emjay]

People always seem to overlook the effect that ferm temps can have on acetaldehyde. Before I had temp control, fermenting at 72° ambient, acetaldehyde was a constant problem for me...

 

[Mermaid]

Be patient with yourself, and the beer. All of the beer I've brewed in my brief brewing experience (about a year and a half) have tasted very different from the time I put it in bottles, at 3 weeks in the bottle, and at 3 months in the bottle. Most of the odd/off flavors I've tasted in my brews when they are "green" have disappeared within a month in the bottle.

The only exception was the Belgian wit I brewed in the Spring, which I think was a victim of poor mash efficiency, inefficient boil time, and other factors.

I was particularly concerned about the nut brown ale I bottled a couple weeks ago. It tasted a bit "muddy" to me when I bottled it, seemed too dry for the style, but even after just 2 weeks in the bottle, it carbed up and tastes quite good. Still has a strange slight fusel quality to it on the finish, but I'm not worried (it was only in the fridge for 8 hours when I tasted it).

Also, I am pretty hard on myself and my brewing, almost as if I am looking for something to be "wrong" with it.

So yeah, give your beer some time. I like to give my brews 3 weeks in the primary (at least), just because I'm lazy - for one, and that I think my beer has turned out better if I don't try to rush things.

 

[helibrewer]

hmmmmm. if diacetyl tends to get cleaned up within a few days of reaching FG then perhaps i miss-diagnosed the off flavor. porter was bottled after 14 days but has been sitting for a week so maybe it's something else. inoticed a slight bit of charring on my brewpot after the boiling of the wort so maybe the tartness/tang is just charred sugar. *sigh* i'll master the brewing some day maybe

diacetyl is buttery or butterscotch flavored, it's the chemical used for artificially buttered popcorn.

 

[weaselburner]

my bad i meant acetylaldehyde which i guess nobody said would go away in a few days. I'm gonna start something new to get me to stop thinking about the two I'm waiting on. something new to obsess about is a good thing for me

 

[agdoc04]

My experience is even more brief. The one thing that I have found is that each batch of my beers is getting a little "better" . My first beer was so full of "off flavors" that it was barely palatable. Only worth drinking because I made it.

What have I done differently from the very first one?
1. keeping mash temperature below 155 (that's about as picky as I get)
2. Fermenting in my closet which is 57-63 degrees without temperature control instead of making a point of keeping the closet closer to 70 degres.
3. Went from a 2 week primary to a 4 week primary and 2 weeks in the bottle to 4 weeks in the bottle. I think this was the single biggest. The youtube video of the guy opening his beer every week from one week post bottle to 6 weeks post bottle convinced me that bottle conditioning is about time.


My next thing I'm doing is making yeast step ups. I have been pitching one smack pack for all beers, including successfully taking a 1.070 to 1.012 in 3 weeks. The advice on this forum has been that this will step up the beer a notch.

 

[dregus]

Yes I have had great success with leaving beer in primary for 7-10 days then tacking to a secondary. I now have a filter so I am going to try and skip the secondary step and see how that goes.

 

[helibrewer]

over oxygenation can contribute to high acetaldehyde also so be careful if you use pure O2 in your oxygenation.

There is another culprit for "apple" flavor, an ester called ethyl caproate. Esters are produced when Acetyl-CoA (a co-enzyme) reacts with fusel alcohols produced during the lag phase. Reducing Acetyl-CoA decreases esters, but increases fusel alcohols so it's a constant balancing act between correct O2 levels, correct fermentation temps, and good yeast quality/nutrition (i.e. pitching rates).

By the way, you have to have acetaldehyde to make ethanol (through reduction) so it's a necessary evil.

Our liver does just the opposite, it makes acetaldehyde from ethanol (through oxidation)....the circle of life

 

[eastoak]

over oxygenation can contribute to high acetaldehyde also so be careful if you use pure O2 in your oxygenation.

There is another culprit for "apple" flavor, an ester called ethyl caproate. Esters are produced when Acetyl-CoA (a co-enzyme) reacts with fusel alcohols produced during the lag phase. Reducing Acetyl-CoA decreases esters, but increases fusel alcohols so it's a constant balancing act between correct O2 levels, correct fermentation temps, and good yeast quality/nutrition (i.e. pitching rates).

By the way, you have to have acetaldehyde to make ethanol (through reduction) so it's a necessary evil.

Our liver does just the opposite, it makes acetaldehyde from ethanol (through oxidation)....the circle of life

you would be hard pressed to over oxygenate a beer, at least with the equipment available to the average homebrewer.

 

[helibrewer]

you would be hard pressed to over oxygenate a beer, at least with the equipment available to the average homebrewer.

That's why the caveat of "if using pure O2", you certainly can with that in a 5 gallon volume.