Acetobacter(?) bottle infection- at a complete loss

[BamaPhil]

I've just had to dump another batch. I could just cry.

I dumped a batch and a half a couple months ago. My theory was that I let my StarSan go too long (I was quickly blasted in the sanitation forum for having such a theory and sent home in shame) and it lost its effectiveness.

I bought pH strips to ensure my sanitizer was effective. I bleach bombed everything. I doubled my cleaning and sanitation efforts before, during, and after each brew. My next brew turned out fantastic- a cherry wheat that has avoided the infection and has been deemed "commercial quality" by several folks. I was ecstatic that I had finally hit my stride as a brewer.

Now my second attempt at an MO/EKG SMASH has gotten infected in the bottles. I even had my first bottle bomb. If I had to guess I would say it's acetobacter just based on what I've read. It has kind of a burn on the back of the throat and is what I guess is "astringent," although I'm not really sure I know what that really means.

Nothing changed between the cherry wheat and the SMASH. I cleaned harder, oxicleaned everything. Nothing touched it post-boil without at least a 30 second contact time with StarSan (which is exactly what I'd always done, but now I count how long I dunk my thermometer when chilling). I started sanitizing my IC, not trusting the boil alone. No stone unturned.

All I can do is replace everything on the cold side that's not glass. Man I hope my hefe that's in primary is ok.

What's so frustrating is I know I'm more careful than many that don't have this trouble. I read so much and hear so many on podcasts talk about "just soak it in oxiclean and rinse," "clean after use, sanitize before," "RDWHAHB."

I'm depressed.

 

[Yooper]

Acetobacter makes vinegar. If you taste vinegar, and only vinegar, that's the contamination.

I don't hear you saying it was sour, and vinegar-y, though.

A burn on the back of the throat sounds like a high fermentation temperature or unpitching of yeast, or both (fusel alcohols). Astringent is a mouth puckering sensation, like sucking on a tea bag. That can be due to water chemistry, or improperly mash/sparging or pH issues.

 

[BamaPhil]

Acetobacter makes vinegar. If you taste vinegar, and only vinegar, that's the contamination.

I don't hear you saying it was sour, and vinegar-y, though.

A burn on the back of the throat sounds like a high fermentation temperature or unpitching of yeast, or both (fusel alcohols). Astringent is a mouth puckering sensation, like sucking on a tea bag. That can be due to water chemistry, or improperly mash/sparging or pH issues.

Thanks for the clarification, I have a really hard time describing tastes beyond "tasty" or "not tasty." I suppose it's not acetobacter then.

I made a 1.5L starter and had a calculated pitch rate of .56M cells/mL/P. A little underpitched but I don't think that's too bad do you?
The yeast was WY1968, London ESB. Wyeast advertises a temperature range of 64-72. The first 3 days were at 68-69, then I let it warm up. The warmest it got during the 17 day fermentation (primary only) was 72.

I think the most telling fact is the bottle bomb and gushers. Every single one of them has been a gusher. This morning I opened a couple, de-gassed them, and took a gravity reading. The FG (before bottling) was 1.017 (OG of 1.057). The bottles I opened this morning were at 1.012.
Before bottling the SG was stable and, as previously mentioned, in primary for 17 days total. I only used 4.5 oz of corn sugar to prime a little over 5 gallons worth, so they weren't over-primed.
There's also a small amount of slime (technical term) floating on top of the beer in the bottles.
Does all that start to add up to a wild yeast? Any other ideas?

Oh yeah, they STINK! I'm going to the LHBS as soon as they open to buy new equipment, maybe they can give me an expert diagnosis of what the smell is.

 

[Yooper]

Sounds like lactobacillus infection. It should sour so I would suggest drinking them quickly before they sour too much to be palatable. It will get worse with time.

 

[BamaPhil]

Sounds like lactobacillus infection. It should sour so I would suggest drinking them quickly before they sour too much to be palatable. It will get worse with time.

They gushed so bad I popped them all and dumped them before another one blew.

Thanks for the insight, hopefully the $50 on replacement equipment will rid myself of this menace!

 

[Braufessor]

A couple of the key areas where infections/bugs set in are bottle fillers, autosiphons and spigots of bottling buckets. Make sure you are taking these COMPLETELY apart - the tips come off of bottle fillers usually. Spigots come apart into two separate pieces.

Once plastic starts to get scratches or little micro-cracks and gets infected..... it can be hard to get rid of it. I had a run of bad batches at one point in my brewing career and had to replace my plastic too. Hang in there.

I would really recommend trying to touch base with an area homebrew club and search out a really experienced, consistent homebrewer. See if you can get someone to sit in on one of your brew days and your bottling process. See if you can sit in on someone elses...... Sometimes an extra set of eyes, and a person who has made their own mistakes in the past, is all it takes to catch something little that you might be missing.

 

[BamaPhil]

...I had a run of bad batches at one point in my brewing career and had to replace my plastic too. Hang in there...

That's encouraging, I appreciate it.

I did bleach everything after the first infection and the next batch turned out great. Maybe it returned after that and normal sanitation didn't get to it?

I will try to find a homebrew club around here, that could be a humbling and useful experience.

 

[Braufessor]

I will try to find a homebrew club around here, that could be a humbling and useful experience.

Yeah - it could be humbling. But it will definitely be useful. I brewed tolerable/mediocre/bad/occasionally good beer for more than 10 years........ I brewed "ok-good" beer for another 2-3. I feel like it is only in the last 3 years or so that I have started to brew good-great beer on a relatively consistent basis (although I still have my failures). That came with a LOT of trial and error, and a LOT of failures along the way.

Trust me - you want to learn from other people's mistakes - not your own. There are so many simple little things that I do now, that make a big difference, that I never thought about when I started. You can get that experience by yourself, over time...... or, you can leap ahead and build on the experience of others who were once in the same position you are in now. If you can find a real experienced, good brewer in your area - you could learn more in 1 or 2 days than you could, on your own, in a couple years. That is not a knock against you, or anyone else as they get started their first couple years. We have all been there and been frustrated at one point or another.

Keep at it, check for clubs with your LHBS. Hopefully there are some others in your area and you can get some of their insights.

 

[BamaPhil]

Update to my ongoing struggle:

When I dumped my recently contaminated ESB a couple weeks ago, I already had a hefeweizen in primary. I let it finish up, with a total of 21 days in primary, the last 14 or so with a stable SG. It was definitely done fermenting.

I bottled 5 days ago and already I've got at least 7 bad bottles with the next 41 likely headed the same direction. They're gushing and have the same aroma and off flavor as my previous 2 contaminations.

I bottled with all brand new equipment- bucket, tubing, wand, etc. that was oxy-cleaned and sanitized. I figure I'm now down to 2 possibilities:

1) The contaminant was already present in the fermenter. For whatever reason it didn't get going until I bottled. Can the introduction of the minimal oxygen or priming sugar at bottling get a wild yeast going that was dormant in the fermentor?

2) It's in the bottles themselves. Not much to do there but clean harder. I'm gonna escalate to a bleach soak next time.

Last time this happened I was depressed. Now it's time for focused determination!

 

[beersk]

Good, stay determined. You will get through this. I've had plenty of trials and tribulations in my brewing career, as well. Damn, it's frustrating and makes you want to just give up and quit. But brewing is such an awesome endeavor, a life long passion, that you just can't give up.

Make sure you're triple rinsing your bottles after use, store them upside down. Check for rings around the bottle necks and check for any haze in the bottles. If it doesn't look clean, toss the bottle. Bottles are cheap. Go buy some beer, reuse the bottles...
Siphon and hose, this has been replaced, I assume?
Fermenters - look into using glass or stainless steel. Plastic just isn't worth it. It's cheap, but easily scratched. Ditch anything plastic if you can.
I moved to fermenting in kegs, do a closed transfer to another keg, bottle prime from the keg (like a bottling bucket) with a picnic tap and bottling wand or just force carbonate.
It's an investment, but it's a high tech, cool way to bottle condition your beer. And the beer really never gets exposed to the outside air.

Anyway, I hope you figure this out soon. Start making some smaller batches, maybe, so you're not risking 5 gallons of beer while you figure out where this infection issue is coming from.

 

[Cheesy_Goodness]

Having someone watch your process could help you identify a problem. There are just too many steps to walkthrough on here to make sure everything you're doing is sanitary. How often are you checking on your beer? The more you look, the higher the risk of infection (especially early on).
Given your information, it sounds like the issue could be your environment, since you said you cleaned the inside and outside of your equipment.
This might sound a bit off the wall, but do you have anything else fermenting in your kitchen? I'm talking about things like kraut, komboucha, yogurt, stuff like that? Bacteria from any one of those things could have possibly gotten into your beer at some step, even if your equipment was sanitized.

 

[BamaPhil]

Make sure you're triple rinsing your bottles after use, store them upside down...
Siphon and hose, this has been replaced, I assume?
Fermenters - look into using glass or stainless steel. Plastic just isn't worth it. ...

The bottles sure as hell seem clean. Even if a few weren't (like the ones I get from other people) you wouldn't think EVERY bottle would be bad. I figure it's gotta be a cold side brew day issue.
Everything plastic was replaced prior to bottling this batch, but not prior to brewing this batch, maybe it was already in there before bottling.
My fermentor is glass

Having someone watch your process could help you identify a problem..... How often are you checking on your beer? The more you look, the higher the risk of infection (especially early on).
Given your information, it sounds like the issue could be your environment, since you said you cleaned the inside and outside of your equipment.
This might sound a bit off the wall, but do you have anything else fermenting in your kitchen? I'm talking about things like kraut, komboucha, yogurt, stuff like that? Bacteria from any one of those things could have possibly gotten into your beer at some step, even if your equipment was sanitized.

I got in touch with a guy on here about supervising my brew day. He's local and is a BJCP judge. He said he'd like to but haven't heard anything since. Gonna have to check in again.
I don't open my fermenter before the krausen falls and only long enough to do requisite gravity checks.
Maybe it is environmental. Maybe something is blowing in during the chill outside. All I can do is bleach everything and try again.

 

[Yooper]

1) The contaminant was already present in the fermenter. For whatever reason it didn't get going until I bottled. Can the introduction of the minimal oxygen or priming sugar at bottling get a wild yeast going that was dormant in the fermentor?

Yes! Not wild yeast, but many bacteria strains can't co-exist in a high C02 environment. They are oxygen loving bacteria. Things like a big headspace in a finished beer in a fermenter, permeability of plastic, etc can all contribute to allowing things like lacto or acetic acid bacteria to grow.

I'd suggest fermenting the beer in one fermenter for about 10-14 days, then bottling from there with a bottling bucket and minimizing oxygen contact. See if less time in the fermenter stops the issue.

 

[BamaPhil]

Yes! Not wild yeast, but many bacteria strains can't co-exist in a high C02 environment. They are oxygen loving bacteria. Things like a big headspace in a finished beer in a fermenter, permeability of plastic, etc can all contribute to allowing things like lacto or acetic acid bacteria to grow.

I'd suggest fermenting the beer in one fermenter for about 10-14 days, then bottling from there with a bottling bucket and minimizing oxygen contact. See if less time in the fermenter stops the issue.

Awesome thanks! The more about off-flavors I read the closer I get to describing this beast: the most distinctive characteristic I can pin down is a hot, burning sensation on the back of the tongue and throat. My wife, a more qualified taster than I am, agreed with this assessment. Maybe "solvent" if I had to pick one of the common ones.

As I've opened older beers I've made, I've noticed it in those as well. Basically, the more recently I made a beer the quicker it's gone bad. This leads me to believe it's something in my environment that has slowly accumulated somewhere as time went on. Hopefully all new plastic will stop the trend.

My next step is to brew something cheap and quick grain-to-glass. Probably a small pale ale with us-05 or something. Everything is getting bleached as close to brewing/bottling day as possible to minimize the chance of anything drifting in.

Thanks for the input everybody, keep it coming if you have anything else to add.

 

[Yooper]

Awesome thanks! The more about off-flavors I read the closer I get to describing this beast: the most distinctive characteristic I can pin down is a hot, burning sensation on the back of the tongue and throat. My wife, a more qualified taster than I am, agreed with this assessment. Maybe "solvent" if I had to pick one of the common ones.

As I've opened older beers I've made, I've noticed it in those as well. Basically, the more recently I made a beer the quicker it's gone bad. This leads me to believe it's something in my environment that has slowly accumulated somewhere as time went on. Hopefully all new plastic will stop the trend.

My next step is to brew something cheap and quick grain-to-glass. Probably a small pale ale with us-05 or something. Everything is getting bleached as close to brewing/bottling day as possible to minimize the chance of anything drifting in.

Thanks for the input everybody, keep it coming if you have anything else to add.

"Solvent" tends to be created from high fermentation temperatures and not so much from infection (although that happens, too). Can that be an issue here, instead of infection? High pitching temperatures or high fermentation temperatures?

 

[BamaPhil]

I really don't think so. In each case the fermentation never got above 68 until after it had really slowed down, and even then it only got up to 72.

I use a swamp cooler (well, I did, I just got my temp controller set up) and use the stick on thermometers. I swap out frozen water bottles to keep temps within the range for the yeast until SG stabilizes then pull it out and let it ride at room temp until I have time to bottle.

Even still, the off flavor gets worse in the bottles and causes pretty serious gushing. Seems that points mostly to contamination, doesn't it? The guy at LHBS was pretty certain it was a contamination.


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[crazy_kilo]

Did you ever get this figured out? It sounds like the exact same problem I'm having time after time. I am careful in sanitation, but in most of my batches this same solvent smell and gushing shows up. I know it's not the fermentation temp or underpitching. I recently did an imperial stout that was in the primary for 1 month, secondary for 2, and tasted great at bottling. Now, a month after bottling, they are all turning bad. My only theory at this point is that there is something getting into the beer during fermentation (or after) that doesn't show its head until there is priming sugar to eat. This would explain why some have this problem with bottling but not kegging.

At this point, I'm going to stop taking gravity samples to minimize chances of things getting in. I'm wondering whether there is something floating in the air of my 100 year old basement. Maybe I will try bottling in a different room too.

So frustrating.

 

[Brew_G]

A couple of the key areas where infections/bugs set in are bottle fillers, autosiphons and spigots of bottling buckets. Make sure you are taking these COMPLETELY apart - the tips come off of bottle fillers usually. Spigots come apart into two separate pieces.

Once plastic starts to get scratches or little micro-cracks and gets infected..... it can be hard to get rid of it. I had a run of bad batches at one point in my brewing career and had to replace my plastic too. Hang in there.

I would really recommend trying to touch base with an area homebrew club and search out a really experienced, consistent homebrewer. See if you can get someone to sit in on one of your brew days and your bottling process. See if you can sit in on someone elses...... Sometimes an extra set of eyes, and a person who has made their own mistakes in the past, is all it takes to catch something little that you might be missing.

I wanted to bump this old thread to second the comment I highlighted in bold. My second-to-last batch (Cascade/Columbus "Strong Pale Ale") was overcarbed and it has a bite to the taste that, while not horrible, is a bit offputting. Also, the body seemed thinner than I expected. I decided to really reduce the CO2 volumes/priming sugar on my most recent batch - my ANZUS IPA (Rakau, Summer, Cascade) - to make sure the carbonation was OK. Fast forward two weeks to my opening the first one as an initial test, and I immediately knew upon cracking it open that it was overcarbed. I was pretty damn frustrated because the ANZUS IPA is only my sixth batch, thus I didn't quite know how to diagnose the issue. So I naturally went online to reserach the problem and found this thread.

I did a double-check on my bottling bucket to make sure that it was clean and unscratched - all OK. Then I took the tip off the bottling wand (which I didn't realize I could do) and found a little ball of brown-yellow crud - not even the width of a soda straw - stuck inside. What did I do next? I took it out and gave it a sniff, of course. Stink. Then I disassembled the spigot - no issues there.

It seems pretty obvious that a little something - some clumped up yeast and/or hop particles - made its way into the bottling wand but wasn't big enough to get out, and since I didn't know to check it, it festered there for another two batches, happily infecting two batches with its spawn. And while it's frustrating that two batches are less than what they should otherwise have been, at least I found what I hope is the only culprit. Fingers crossed...

 

[BamaPhil]

The beast returns!

After 9 perfectly good batches (including one that scored a 41 and took first place in its category) my arch nemesis has returned. The taste, aroma, and mouthfeel are all the same as the issue I had last summer. It's also manifesting itself the same way- my maibock went bad after 2 weeks in the bottle, then the saison I brewed after it started going on me after 3-4 weeks bottled.

The saison was very good for a while, but I'm heartbroken about the maibock. It was my first lager and was very promising. The bottle I had at week in was shaping up very nicely.

Anyway, nothing changed about my cleaning and sanitation techniques from when I went overboard on getting rid of this thing. My hope is that my racking equipment was just overdue for replacement. I replaced my tubing, cane, autosiphon, and bottling wand and bottled an IPA I already had in the fermentor yesterday.

If the IPA is clean 2 weeks from now, I'll rest easy with confidence that it was hiding in my plastic. Either way, I'm going on a strict equipment rotation plan from now on.

 

[BreezyBrew]

Are you cold crashing before the yeast has has time to clean up after itself? I had this happen before when I let my Carboy accidentally get too cold before fermentation was done and the cidery off flavors remained.

 

[BamaPhil]

Are you cold crashing before the yeast has has time to clean up after itself? I had this happen before when I let my Carboy accidentally get too cold before fermentation was done and the cidery off flavors remained.

Good thought but I don't rush the cold crash. I let fermentation finish (as indicated by SG readings) then give it several more days to do it's thing.

It's far beyond "off flavor" too. The bottles gush (or are close to it) and it gets worse with time.

 

[cannman]

I skimmed through the thread... did you Star-San both the inside of the bottles (30 second contact time) AND the bottle caps?

When I had my first infections, it was dirty lines and forever dirty spigot.

What are you using for a fermenter?

 

[ArcaneXor]

Have you had this beer tasted by someone who was able to identify the nature of the infection (lacto, wild yeast, acetobacter, etc)? Have you tried leaving a portion of a batch in a jug and watch for pellicle development? Have you decarbonated one of your gushing bottles and taken a hydrometer sample to determine gravity change? Have you tried storing your bottles cold after they are carbed to slow down the infection?

Another experiment you can do is sulfiting a few bottles. They won't carbonate, of course, but if the sulfite successfully prevents the symptoms, you could potentially treat the main batch, let the sulfite dissipate, and then add a bottle conditioning yeast like CBC-1 to complete the carbonation.

Do you buy name-brand malts? Have you tried ordering your malts from another source? Gushing can be caused by infection of the barley with a fungus called fusarium. There is little the brewer can do to fix that other than switching sources. This seems pretty unlikely though, unless you are using malt from a home or boutique maltster that doesn't have a proper lab.

Do you boil your priming sugar before adding it to the wort?

How often do you replace your tubing? I buy 5/16" tubing by the 100' roll and use a new length each day I work on my beers.

 

[BamaPhil]

I skimmed through the thread... did you Star-San both the inside of the bottles....and the bottle caps? I only use bottles that are visibly clean (i.e. thoroughly rinsed after use), then I oxyclean soak them anyway. Then I run them through the sanitation cycle of my dishwasher, then I STILL star-san them for at least 30 seconds. Overkill, but I wanted to be damn sure it wasn't my bottle process! I also StarSan soak my caps

What are you using for a fermenter? 6.5 gallon glass carboy

Have you had this beer tasted by someone who was able to identify the nature of the infection (lacto, wild yeast, acetobacter, etc)? I haven't, I'd like to though. Might take one to my LHBS tomorrow

Have you tried leaving a portion of a batch in a jug and watch for pellicle development? A good idea, but the problem doesn't make itself apparent until after it's been bottled for a couple weeks. By the time I realize it's contaminated, it's too late for that

Have you decarbonated one of your gushing bottles and taken a hydrometer sample to determine gravity change? yes, it definitely dropped. I can't remember how much since it was last summer that I did, but it did seem to ferment further

Have you tried storing your bottles cold after they are carbed to slow down the infection?A wise thought, but in each case by the time it's clear that it's gone, it's too far gone. I am gonna do this with the IPA I just bottled, as soon as one is carbed, I'll chill as many as I can

Another experiment you can do is sulfiting a few bottles. They won't carbonate, of course, but if the sulfite successfully prevents the symptoms, you could potentially treat the main batch, let the sulfite dissipate, and then add a bottle conditioning yeast like CBC-1 to complete the carbonation. A good idea if this continues

Do you buy name-brand malts? Have you tried ordering your malts from another source? Gushing can be caused by infection of the barley with a fungus called fusarium. There is little the brewer can do to fix that other than switching sources. This seems pretty unlikely though, unless you are using malt from a home or boutique maltster that doesn't have a proper lab. Nah, my malt has been consistently from a very good LHBS. This includes both the bad batches and the batches that have gone off without a hitch

Do you boil your priming sugar before adding it to the wort? yes

How often do you replace your tubing? I buy 5/16" tubing by the 100' roll and use a new length each day I work on my beers. This is the hypothesis I'm currently testing. Not often enough, probably let it go a couple months. My most recent batch I bottled with fresh tubing. Of course, I racked it into the fermenter from the kettle with old tubing, but I'm hoping the fermentation knocked out any bugs it may have gotten from that. Wishful thinking, but the last time this happened, a batch I had in primary while I revamped my cleaning procedures turned out fine in the bottles. That's what led me to believe it was happening in the bottles rather than in primary.

Thanks for the input guys!

 

[Howhownow]

BamaPhil, I used to get something very similar with almost EVERY batch I bottled. I keg, too, and I didn't have these issues with the beer coming from the tap. This allowed me to isolate the issue to post-ferment.

This is just my personal anecdote, but the only thing that finally helped me consistently was to oven-sterilize all my bottles. It sounds like a daunting task, but I actually prefer it to traditional cleaning methods because sanitary bottles stay that way basically indefinitely. I wash them thoroughly with plain water (usually right after drinking), and set them out to dry. I just make sure all noticeable particulate matter is gone. When the bottles are dry, cover the top of each with a square of heavy duty foil, then pop in the oven overnight or during the workday at 250. I give them at least 8 hours. Keep the foil on, and the bottles stay beer-ready... well, I have filled them up to a month later with no issues.
Again, this is what works for me, but this, along with extra, but not by any means extravagant vigilance over bottling gear sanitization (which is minimal for me- I bottle straight from the keg with a dedicated line and picnic tap) has essentially 100% corrected my bottle issue. I do them a batch at a time, whenever I have enough bottles.

 

[iasquith]

When I set out some years ago and had the same problem. I finally one day tried a side by side test of just how well i was cleaning my bottles.I'd always used washing up liquid and hot water and a bottle brush in the past however that day I left one of my bottles to soak overnight with percarbonate of soda and hot water then used the bottle brush, as i was turning the brush i noticed a film like substance that was literally falling off the sides in tiny scratch like grooves. When I'd rinsed the bottle and held it against the light next to the other (cleaned the old way) the difference was shocking one was cristal clean the other opaque. I proceeded to wash the other bottle with perc.soda and upon watching really closely i observed that the this stuff really appears to bite into the surface of the glass, gets underneath the crud and lifts and sure enough there were the tell-tale signs of bottle brush sratches now visible that before looked like, well, a clean bottle.That was a lightbulb moment for me and i knew even with out making another batch that now it all made sense the fact that the fermented sample tasted good but somehow after bottling something nasty developed .
After having to force down or throw out ten or so 5 gal. Batches i know what your going through i'm not saying i make great beer every time but it's never because of dirty bottles. Best of luck Ian.