Accuflex Ultra 235 vs Kegland EVA barrier

[day_trippr]

A ball lock QD sporting a 1/4" MFL thread usually has a captive gasket at the tip. Whether a PTC connector or a standard swivel, no additional gasket or tape required.

That said, you can use the same PTC connector on a bare 1/4" MFL thread (eg: a 1/4" MFL bulkhead) as the connector itself will deform to seal directly to the metal male side with sufficient torque.

fwiw, the only PTC fittings I used with captive gaskets were for the faucet shanks and my flow meters...

Cheers!

 

[odie]

There is some kinda plastic insert on the Threaded part. But it’s hard.

 

[day_trippr]

I'm guessing that's a Far East knockoff of a CMB disconnect as all of the dozens of CMB's here have a glossy finish.
Still, that plastic tip is the "gasket" and as long as you apply sufficient torque to the connector it'll seal just fine...

Cheers!

 

[Bobby_M]

I also found that the duotight threaded on to a metal MFL will also seal just fine. It's the metal to metal connections that require a separate nylon gasket to make the seal at lower torque.

 

[odie]

CMB? No clue but I have several different looking kegs that all have interchangeable ball locks. I don’t think any one company holds a monopoly anymore. I’ve never seen a branded disconnect, well I’ve never noticed or looked closely at any of mine from numerous sources

 

[day_trippr]

Clearly.

CMB makes a recognized quality product.
Imitators, not so much...

Cheers!

 

[Bobby_M]

CMB? No clue but I have several different looking kegs that all have interchangeable ball locks. I don’t think any one company holds a monopoly anymore. I’ve never seen a branded disconnect, well I’ve never noticed or looked closely at any of mine from numerous sources

CMBecker is likely the only brand left that is not made in China. They are worth the extra dollar.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Nevermind, asked and answered.

 

[Yesfan]

Quick and topic related questions.

I have barbed ends on the check valves of my co2 regulator and the inlet of my main co2 distributor. I have a spare distributor that has MFL fitted check valves to connect to swivel nuts. If I can replace those connections with MFL ones from my spare distributor, then I can use the Duotight PTC connections all the way through from tank to taps on my keezer.

Could I swap out the inlet barb on the main distributor with one of the MFL valves from my spare? On the regulator, could I just swap out the barb tips with the MFL tips from the valves on my spare distributor? The tips look like they just have an Oring for the sealing. I know I'll have to use gas tape on the valve for the distributor.

For added measure, I washed and rinse the valve and tips, then boiled them for a few minutes. I'll flush the valves out with c02 afterwards before final assembly.

 

[h22lude]

I also found that the duotight threaded on to a metal MFL will also seal just fine.

I found the exact opposite, at least for CO2 fittings.

 

[day_trippr]

Eh? You've had success threading a metal swivel nut onto a male metal flare thread with no gasket and it held pressure?

fwiw, I put over four dozen John Guest, Duotight and DMfit PTC fittings into service a couple of months ago, the vast majority of them 1/4" ffl to 5/16" - 8 mm OD tube. Most of those were to CMB QDs, the rest to regulator and manifold ports. I didn't stick a flare gasket inside any of them...

Cheers!

 

[Robert65]

Yep. Duotight right onto metal MFL on gas. And would be on beer if it were a thing. No flare washers anywhere in my system except metal to metal (which really doesn't exist anymore.) As @day_trippr keeps pointing out, a deforming washer is superfluous on a deforming fitting. In fact, I'd think that, by reducing the number of threads you can engage, it would just potentially interfere with your ability to properly torque it down.

 

[Jayjay1976]

While we're on the subject, anyone know approx. how much torque to use installing the flare-to-Duotight adapters? I kinda just made them as tight as I could by hand and let it go at that. The shank-to-Duotight fittings require standard shank gaskets, but because of their size I used a crescent wrench to snug them down a little more than I could by hand.

 

[Robert65]

While we're on the subject, anyone know approx. how much torque to use installing the flare-to-Duotight adapters? I kinda just made them as tight as I could by hand and let it go at that. The shank-to-Duotight fittings require standard shank gaskets, but because of their size I used a crescent wrench to snug them down a little more than I could by hand.

I use a wrench on all of them, but I just go by feel, no idea how much actual torque I'm applying. When it doesn't seem to want to tighten much more I quit while I'm ahead. Sounds like what you're doing. If it doesn't leak, it must be right.

 

[day_trippr]

They don't take a lot of torque to seat tight. If you look inside the threaded end there's a tapered seat that will deform easily enough.
That said, when I was just getting started with the massive conversion I did manage to blow out the back of a 1/4" FFL adapter due to excessive torque.
Put a lovely circumferential crack on it.
Don't do that

Cheers!

 

[gnef]

I've also cracked a number of the acetal John Guest fittings from overtightening, but it took months of use, so I didn't know at first, they just started leaking one day.

Due to breaking enough of the acetal ones, I have changed a few dozen of my gas acetal John Guest fittings to their lead free brass versions, but those get expensive when you buy that many!

 

[Jayjay1976]

So as I suspected, fatigue failure is something to watch out for, thanks!

 

[Robert65]

So as I suspected, fatigue failure is something to watch out for, thanks!

So, rig it all up and then don't mess with it. What we would hope to do anyway.

 

[Jayjay1976]

So, rig it all up and then don't mess with it. What we would hope to do anyway.

Ideally, I'll only be torque them down once. In the real world, probably 5-ish times. Glad to be aware they can fail so I will keep my eye on them. After all, it's called plastic for a reason, right?

 

[h22lude]

Eh? You've had success threading a metal swivel nut onto a male metal flare thread with no gasket and it held pressure?

No sorry, I was referring to the duotight comment. I had leaks when using duotight against metal threads with no gasket.

 

[Woodie]

Has anyone used the EVA Barrier in a long draw system? My Keezer is in the basement directly below my taps. From the center of a keg to the tap is about an 11 ft rise with another 3 or 4 horizontal feet needed to get from the keg out of the Keezer.

I did my current setup about 6 months ago with BevSeal Ultra. In doing my research I determined that I needed to go up to the 1/4 inch Bevseal which was a mistake. At this point I have about 50ft on each of my 4 taps with a pair of Intertap FC and a pair of Perlick FC taps. I still have problems getting a non-foamy consistent pour (its not terrible but could be way better). I am circulating glycol along with the beer lines so my temp is about 38 degrees at the tap.

Using Mike Soltys calculator @ 10 psi and a 10 second pour I would have to move up to the 6 mm tubing. If I fiddle with these numbers and go up to 11 psi and/or a flow rate of 13 seconds per pint I can stay with the 5 mm but just barely.

These calculations are done assuming the EVA has the same roughness as vinyl (0.000016). Can anyone give me some thoughts on which way to go? Do these lines seem be rougher or smoother (slower or faster) than vinyl?

Getting these lines in and out of the wall is a real chore so I don't want to do it wrong again. If there is a chance I can do the 5 mm I think that would be best since the fittings are (from what I can tell) more readily available for the 5 mm stuff. This is unfortunately an all or nothing scenario as I have to disassemble everything to get into the wall to replace the lines and can't really hook it back up partially to test. Right now I am thinking I do the 6 mm and start with 20ft, then trim down from there just so I don't have any problems but would really like to do the 5 mm if its reasonable that I could make it work.

 

[Yesfan]

^^ I didn't think they made a 6mm line. I thought 4mm and 5 mm was it.

Where did you get the 6mm line from?

 

[Woodie]

I have not purchased any of it yet but here it is
https://www.morebeer.com/products/e...tubing-1564-6-mm-id-38-95-od-placeholder.html

 

[Jayjay1976]

^^ I didn't think they made a 6mm line. I thought 4mm and 5 mm was it.

Where did you get the 6mm line from?

Just a note of caution, that 6mm ID tubing which has an OD of 9.5mm, requires different fittings than the 4&5mm tubing, both of which have an OD of 8mm.

 

[Woodie]

Just a note of caution, that 6mm ID tubing which has an OD of 9.5mm, requires different fittings than the 4&5mm tubing, both of which have an OD of 8mm.

Yeah - that is actually exactly why I want to stick to the 4/5 mm if possible. Not only are the different but the options for the 6 mm are limited (at least from morebeer.com)

 

[Yesfan]

Thanks for the heads up. I was wondering if 6mm would be a better solution for the gas line between my tank and distributor.

If these go on a barb much easier (what's on my tank and distributor), I still may consider it. I'm wondering if I flared the ends like mentioned before would work.

 

[day_trippr]

There's truly no reason for wide-bore gas lines. I've always used 3/16" ID for gas, now using 5mm ID EVA because was easier to use with my existing 1/4" barbed manifold and 3/8" barbed nitro regulator (stupid choice by Micromatic there).

Anyway...

The 10' rise (with the 3-4' lateral) will be the reason why I don't think the 5mm ID EVAbarrier tubing will work. That rise "replaces" a lot of line wrt net resistance as Mike's calculator shows - if I use those numbers with the 5mm/0.1968498" ID tubing the total line length is just over 8.5' - so you can't actually reach the faucets from the keezer!

I think the 6mm tubing is pretty much necessary in this case. And given the apparent effort needed to run new lines I would definitely take the time to experiment with line length and see what works before running all of the lines in the wall.

btw, I have no idea what the relative roughness of the EVAbarrier tubing is, so that's a crap shoot. I can say I'm running 6' EVA 4mm lines instead of the 12' of Bevlex 200 solid PVC 3/16" ID I used to run and the pours are indistinguishable (and excellent).

I'm not sure how one would use this data, but Mike's calculator wanted me to use 9.8' of the Bevlex, or 4.5' of the EVA 4mm, using the same default roughness constant. Perhaps using 33% more line than what Mike's calculator advises would match up with where I am...but in the case above with 5mm line, that +33% above Mike's calculation still only makes 11.3', still not enough line.

Cheers!

 

[Jayjay1976]

Thanks for the heads up. I was wondering if 6mm would be a better solution for the gas line between my tank and distributor.

If these go on a barb much easier (what's on my tank and distributor), I still may consider it. I'm wondering if I flared the ends like mentioned before would work.

My system is newly built and although I went with all EVABarrier tubing and fittings on the beer side, I built the gas side with conventional gas tubing, barbed fittings, and oetker clamps.

Then the other day I connected the gas disconnect to a full and highly pressurized keg; with the regulator outlet shut off there was little pressure in the gas line so a bit of beer shot up into the tubing, which obviously has fouled it and now it needs to be cleaned and sanitized. When this keg kicks I'm going to have to cut the oetker off along with the end bit of tubing to remove and clean out the line. It would be much easier if I had gone with 1/4" flare fittings from the get-go to make the lines serviceable, but now I've decided to change out my whole gas side to use the same 4mm EVABarrier tubing and fittings as my beer side, just to add flexibility to my setup and simplify my spare parts inventory. I have no worries about the small tubing restricting the flow of CO2 because I'm serving kegs of homebrew at a homebrew rate of a few pints a week.

 

[day_trippr]

Right. We're not powering air tools here
Virtually all of the "push" for a pour is available from the keg head space, and the recharge rate is so rapid as to be a non-issue...

Cheers!

 

[Woodie]

I guess I am convinced I have to use the 6 mm tubing. I really hope it works out better than the Bev Seal Ultra, Don't want to end up with 100's of extra feet of tubing coiled up. Right now with my 4 taps I have about 140 feet of tube coiled up in the Keezer and its just a pain. Also hoping to move up to six taps when I take this all apart so that would be another 70 feet. Kinda ridiculous. But reading all of this thread it does seem like most people are saying the Eva adds more resistance than the Bev Seal so hopefully all will be well.

 

[MikeCo]

Is there any way you can test the 5mm by running the targeted length up some stairs or through an opening in the ceiling? Or otherwise test it with the length and elevation change you need without fully installing it in your keezer? You would have to get a small length of the 5mm first to do this, but then it's just a matter of connecting a faucet or picnic tap to a keg with the new line to test it. The keg and faucet don't need to be in the keezer.

If the 5mm works, I would be inclined to use it for the availability of fittings and reduced amount of excess line in the keezer. A slightly slower pour would not bother me for a home system.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I guess I am convinced I have to use the 6 mm tubing. I really hope it works out better than the Bev Seal Ultra, Don't want to end up with 100's of extra feet of tubing coiled up. Right now with my 4 taps I have about 140 feet of tube coiled up in the Keezer and its just a pain. Also hoping to move up to six taps when I take this all apart so that would be another 70 feet. Kinda ridiculous. But reading all of this thread it does seem like most people are saying the Eva adds more resistance than the Bev Seal so hopefully all will be well.

If you want shorter lines, go with the 4mm tubing. That's what I use, my lines are 6.5' long and I get great pours on 12 psi.

 

[Woodie]

Is there any way you can test the 5mm by running the targeted length up some stairs or through an opening in the ceiling? Or otherwise test it with the length and elevation change you need without fully installing it in your keezer? You would have to get a small length of the 5mm first to do this, but then it's just a matter of connecting a faucet or picnic tap to a keg with the new line to test it. The keg and faucet don't need to be in the keezer.

If the 5mm works, I would be inclined to use it for the availability of fittings and reduced amount of excess line in the keezer. A slightly slower pour would not bother me for a home system.

Unfortunately I don't have a way to get it up the wall without taking the existing system all apart (nightmare) but it occurred to me that I do have a 14 ft A-Frame ladder, an extra CO2 Tank/Regulator/Tap, and a keg full of a failed batch of lager I need to dump. So I threw the keg back in the keezer this morning and ordered some 5 mm to give it a shot. That should simulate it close enough. Its worth a couple of bucks to try it out and see what happens. I have a feeling its just not going to work but with the effort required to try it out being fairly minimal I am going to give it a go. If nothing else I should be able to post back results that someone else might find useful.

I can only imagine what my neighbors are going to think when they see me on a ladder in my back yard dispensing beer. Its probably worth it just to see their reaction.

 

[day_trippr]

The 6mm could serve as a "trunk line" to make the distance and lift, with enough 4mm "choker" tubing at the end to tune the pour. That would greatly reduce the amount of 6mm tubing needed. Just stick one of these in the middle...

https://www.morebeer.com/products/duotight-pushin-fitting-8-mm-516-95-38-reducer.html

Cheers!

 

[Woodie]

The 6mm could serve as a "trunk line" to make the distance and lift, with enough 4mm "choker" tubing at the end to tune the pour. That would greatly reduce the amount of 6mm tubing needed. Just stick one of these in the middle...

https://www.morebeer.com/products/duotight-pushin-fitting-8-mm-516-95-38-reducer.html

Cheers!

The choker is a possibility and I actually already have that going on now with the BevSeal tubing. I am hoping the EVA is flexible enough to eliminate the vinyl shown below (but I doubt it). The pictures are from before I 100% finished so there is no drip tray or handles but, you can tell how cramped I am for space. It seems to me like I will need to do some re-engineering of my system when I take it apart. For now I think I will test the 5 mm and report back.

Sorry to hijack the thread with my dysfunction!!!

 

[day_trippr]

9.5mm trunk lines will be the same OD as your 1/4" Ultra, but the transitional fittings will be shorter and skinnier than what you're using now, and the 8mm choker tubing OD would be thinner than the PVC tubing you have there.

As for bend radius: this is the 4mm tubing. I doubt the Ultra can do that

My bet is it'll be easier to plumb than the original...

Cheers!

 

[Woodie]

That bend radius is definitely better than the ultra... Looks like it should be substantially easier.

 

[Jayjay1976]

That bend radius is definitely better than the ultra... Looks like it should be substantially easier.

I have the 4mm too and I am highly impressed overall, but especially in terms of it's bendability EVABarrier is the bee's knees! BTW does anyone know the radius of a bee's knee? Because this stuff can prolly match it.

 

[day_trippr]

In that picture, the edge of the PTC fitting is about 1/2" into the near edge of the 3" diameter column hole, and the bend is overhanging the far edge by about 1/4", so that's surely no more than a 1-1/2" bend radius....

Cheers!

 

[CantWinThisGame]

He also, like so many homebrewers, doesn't seem to grasp that keeping oxygen out of your beer is a good thing, so there's that to overcome before demand goes up.

Usually the beer doesn't last long enough in my kegs to worry about oxygen. LOL