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Accuflex Ultra 235 vs Kegland EVA barrier

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arrasmithf

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OMG! I have been reading through these forums for hours looking for this EXACT post! I love you guys! I am planning the same thing for similar reason. Kegerator taking up too much space in the dining area so I moved it down to garage. I need to run approximately 15 vertical feet to get to faucets upstairs. I like the Kegland products and I was thinking about going with the 5mm EVA tubing but the beer line calc that everyone references here is confusing to me with so much vertical rise and no accounting for smoothness of the EVA tubing. Also someone referenced the wrong diameter in the calc. The 5mm tubing should be .2031” so it’s an incorrect suggestion I think. I know too short or not enough restriction will result in foam but what I don’t hear about much on this thread is if the line is too long or too much restriction will it just be a little slower or will beer not even make it to the faucets? PLEASE post an update if you run that test. My budget Is tight for this project and I can’t afford to do it twice. Also post some more pics of that setup. Looks high tech. ✌
 

arrasmithf

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Ok, this online calculator(below) is so much better. It allows you to specify the inside diameter of tubing (EVA 5mm= .2031) and it measures flow rate. So I put in 15’ of line and 15’ vertical rise and adjusted the flow rate to 13 seconds per pint(which is totally acceptable for me) and I get my preferred PSI of 14 which works for my carbonation and temp. I have enough info now to proceed with minimum level of confidence. Still sorting out which pump and chilling liquid to go with. I will post pictures once I complete the project for any that are in the same situation http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/
 

IslandLizard

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Ok, this online calculator(below) is so much better. It allows you to specify the inside diameter of tubing (EVA 5mm= .2031) and it measures flow rate. So I put in 15’ of line and 15’ vertical rise and adjusted the flow rate to 13 seconds per pint(which is totally acceptable for me) and I get my preferred PSI of 14 which works for my carbonation and temp. I have enough info now to proceed with minimum level of confidence. Still sorting out which pump and chilling liquid to go with. I will post pictures once I complete the project for any that are in the same situation http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/
The key with trunk lines is, aside from having chilling tubes, good insulation around the bundle to limit heat loss.

You may still experience foamier pours (and sometimes reduced head) on the first ounces of a pour due to getting beer from the line first. Even with glycol chilling lines, beer sitting in a line and junctions (like in a tower) will have different temps than the keg, disturbing the fine balance of temp/pressure/carbonation level.
 

LBussy

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Heya guys. Has anyone found a solution for the 3/8 BSP to 8mm? I need that for my flow meters.

ETA: Looks like I need John Guest PI451213S but I can;t seem to find anyone in the US that sells them for a reasonable price.
 
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garzlok

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This is the site I used and which others have referenced many times on HBT. Not certain if this meets your definition of reasonable price.
 

LBussy

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Thank you, sir - that's reasonable enough.

Does this tubing require a special cutter? Now is the time to buy that one last piece. :) I have an anvil cutter that uses a drywall blade, which makes short work of regular tubing. I'm not sure whether this stuff needs one of those purpose-built items or not.
 

garzlok

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Thank you, sir - that's reasonable enough.

Does this tubing require a special cutter? Now is the time to buy that one last piece. :) I have an anvil cutter that uses a drywall blade, which makes short work of regular tubing. I'm not sure whether this stuff needs one of those purpose-built items or not.
No problem!

For better, or worse...I used my Free.99 Harbor Freight scissors to cut my tubing. You just have to make sure it’s a nice squared off cut with no burrs.
 

MikeCo

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I bought one of these cutters when I bought the tubing and fittings from Williams. It works nicely for square cuts and is cheap.

 

LBussy

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Okay, I'm irked. I purchased all the parts and getting all of them in (or so I thought) took about a month from various suppliers. I head out to the garage with a frosty beverage and I find out the fittings on my regulator are LEFT-HANDED.

Anyone come across this and solve it? I can't seem to find 1/4" NPT LH to 8mm.
 

LBussy

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It's a Kegco LHU5S-3 Secondary Regulator, and I'm angry at it right now. :) Good product though.

I found what I think I need by way of an adapter, but they are in Canada and at $10 apiece for fittings, it seems a little steep.

I'm still searching. Surely someone has something.

ETA: Okay it looks like it's only the "high" side of my secondary regulator (which makes sense) which has this fitting. So, I only need one of the damned things. One or 100, I'm still stuck. :)

Further edit: I found a male LHT to male RHT at Austin Homebrew and at AIH, but they don't really have any of the other John Guest/Duo-Tight things I've forgotten, making that a small order/expensive shipping. It's also not perfect, a male LHT to female RHT is what I need.

Final final edit (this is starting to feel a little Monty Python-ish): Found one here where shipping was not bad.
 
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LBussy

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I thought I'd drop a little EVA-Barrier pr0n in here since I got off my @$$ and did something this past weekend:

Here's a shot of my primary + triple secondary. I was happy to see I could get three of these lines into the hole in the back that previously only allowed one line. Also notice the highly custom 3-D printed bracket for the regulator. Hopefully it holds up to the summer heat in the garage. :)

IMG_0268.jpg


And here is the box showing my cold-air blower tube + my highly customized return air ducting. The taps would have been easier if they were longer, but I was able to pull it off.

IMG_0269.jpg


Here you can see the three CO2 lines coming in the left side through that tiny hole. A few temp sensors because .. duh, beer geek! Then of course the tower air blower + a good recirc fan to keep stagnation down. I was going to retouch my pic to hide the mess at the bottom - but you have all seen the bottom of kegerators before.

IMG_0270.jpg


I did notice after that I forgot to insert the backflow preventers, but that's just a "snip and slide" affair.
 

LBussy

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I need a dummy-check here from the community (meaning make sure I'm not being a dummy. :)) I purchased a BUNCH of the wrong fittings and let them sit long enough that I can't return them anymore. I need to go from my Swissflow (3/8 BSP) to my 4mm EVABarrier tubing which I measure to be 8mm or 5/16" OD. Does this look like the right one?

DMfit Female BSPP Connector Cone Type - 5/16" Push-in x 3/8 BSP(P)
fitting.jpg

In other news, if anyone needs a great deal on 3/8" BSP to 3/8 PTC, give me a yell. :p
 

IslandLizard

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I need a dummy-check here from the community (meaning make sure I'm not being a dummy. :)) I purchased a BUNCH of the wrong fittings and let them sit long enough that I can't return them anymore. I need to go from my Swissflow (3/8 BSP) to my 4mm EVABarrier tubing which I measure to be 8mm or 5/16" OD. Does this look like the right one?

DMfit Female BSPP Connector Cone Type - 5/16" Push-in x 3/8 BSP(P)
View attachment 702188
In other news, if anyone needs a great deal on 3/8" BSP to 3/8 PTC, give me a yell. :p
If that faucet connection is indeed 3/8 BSPP thread, this looks to be the right one, yes.

Are you also going to use a 90° adapter between the BSPP adapter and the EVA line for easier routing/handling?
 

LBussy

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If that faucet connection is indeed 3/8 BSPP thread, this looks to be the right one, yes.
Thank you, I appreciate you looking over my shoulder.
Are you also going to use a 90° adapter between the BSPP adapter and the EVA line for easier routing/handling?
No ... should I? Not seeing how it would help. Can you explain? I want to be sure I'm not missing something I will wish I thought about. :)
 

IslandLizard

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Thank you, I appreciate you looking over my shoulder.

No ... should I? Not seeing how it would help. Can you explain? I want to be sure I'm not missing something I will wish I thought about. :)
YVW! A 2nd set of eyes on things like that can help prevent ordering blunders.

Those 90° adapters aren't always needed, depending on your keezer layout. EVA Barrier line is also a lot more flexible.
The adapters come in handy in my upright freezer with taps coming out the door, using BevSeal Ultra 235 line, as that stuff is so hard to manage.
Using the 90° adapters, I can bundle the lines and send the whole bundle downward to the kegs, which also have those 90° adapters on the QDs, adding a lot of "flexibility" routing those springy lines. They now lie in coils on top of the kegs. I'll be switching to EVA Barrier line, hopefully before the end of year.
 

day_trippr

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I wouldn't (and didn't) use 90° stems with sf800 flow meters from their turbulence inducing potential...

Cheers!
 

tennesseean_87

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So I think It's time to get rid of the huge coils of bevflex ultra and get some shorter lines with more resistance. I have intertap flow control faucets, but have to restrict a lot to get them to pour without too much head. I think I've got a 50' coil split unevenly between 3 taps. I have my temp set to about 40-41, and use 8-15psi depending on style. I hypothesize that using the flow control to really dial up some back pressure is a little counter-productive because it introduces turbulence that still results in foam. I've had these lines ~2.5 years since I built my setup, and I'm hoping this will allow shorter, easier to manage lines that will let me open up my taps a bit more.

I have a question about CO2 lines, though. I built with hardware store, thick-walled, reinforced vinyl gas lines. Is that a serious concern for oxygen ingress? Should I buy some 5mm tubing to redo the gas lines?
 

Ki-ri-n

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I think the consensus is it is and can be replaced as well. You can still use the 4mm line to keep it simple, no real need to go to 5mm.
I'm changing all of mine to 4mm....
 

tennesseean_87

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I think the consensus is it is and can be replaced as well. You can still use the 4mm line to keep it simple, no real need to go to 5mm.
I'm changing all of mine to 4mm....
I was thinking of ease of getting it onto the barbs on the gas side. I have seen some say they've gotten 4mm onto 1/4" barbs. I also want to have plenty of line to use to make sure I don't over-shorten.
 

doug293cz

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I was thinking of ease of getting it onto the barbs on the gas side. I have seen some say they've gotten 4mm onto 1/4" barbs. I also want to have plenty of line to use to make sure I don't over-shorten.
If you are replacing all the lines, might as well switch over to push-on fittings. Easier than barbs, and no clamps required.

Brew on :mug:
 

tennesseean_87

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I don't have the scratch at the moment, but ordered the 5mm line. I cashed in an early xmas gift since hobby finds are running dry after buying a sanke keg to ferment in. My pipe-line's run dry, and the stuff should be here to do the work on my day off and have it ready as things finish fermenting. I've had borderline issues with foam, and I'm hoping this solves them without having to turn down the pressure or temperature. I haven't noticed issues with oxygen ingress, but that doesn't mean I haven't dulled my palate to them.
 

day_trippr

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The 5mm is easy enough to push over 1/4" barbs on the gas side, did that on my "K2" keezer refurb (about a year before the poor thing expired) to avoid replacing a 6 port barbed manifold. Heat helps, as does a swaging tool...

Cheers!
 

tennesseean_87

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The 5mm is easy enough to push over 1/4" barbs on the gas side, did that on my "K2" keezer refurb (about a year before the poor thing expired) to avoid replacing a 6 port barbed manifold. Heat helps, as does a swaging tool...

Cheers!
I have hair dryer, and may use this as an excuse to get a heat gun (should probably have one anyway) if it doesn't do the trick. A big knitting needle was a huge help with my previous install.
 

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I have hair dryer, and may use this as an excuse to get a heat gun (should probably have one anyway) if it doesn't do the trick. A big knitting needle was a huge help with my previous install.
A hair dryer should suffice. But you've got to stick a nail set or a swaging tool inside. They're steel, and will heat the tubing also from the inside. I think that will help a lot to get it to stretch.
 

twd000

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I have a question about CO2 lines, though. I built with hardware store, thick-walled, reinforced vinyl gas lines. Is that a serious concern for oxygen ingress? Should I buy some 5mm tubing to redo the gas lines?
How would the oxygen get into the system, if the CO2 is 10-15 psi above ambient pressure?
 

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How would the oxygen get into the system, if the CO2 is 10-15 psi above ambient pressure?
The diffusion rate of O2 thru the tube wall depends only on the partial pressure of O2 inside the tube, and the permeability of the tubing material. The CO2 pressure inside the tube does not affect the diffusion of O2 thru the tube walls. This is basic physical chemistry of gases. EVA Barrier tubing has much lower permeability for O2 than does other available tubing.

Brew on :mug:
 

eric19312

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How would the oxygen get into the system, if the CO2 is 10-15 psi above ambient pressure?
The oxygen doesn't care about the other gasses in the system. The rate of diffusion is determined by the oxygen permeability of the barrier, the thickness and surface area of the barrier, and the magnitude of the difference in partial pressures on either side of the barrier. Some people just unhook their gas lines from their kegs when not in use and call it good enough.

Here is a calculation which explains the consequences. On Serving: A Look at Total Oxygen Ingess - The Modern Brewhouse

I think he overdid it with assuming 15 feet of gas and beer lines for each keg. But you can adjust the variables and decide for yourself if you are concerned about the amount of oxygen getting into your keg from your gas lines. I was concerned and did swap them all out.
 

jddevinn

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How would the oxygen get into the system, if the CO2 is 10-15 psi above ambient pressure?
Gas diffusion doesn't 'care' about total pressure, just the partial pressures of the gases. Even though there is a higher pressure in the hose than ambient there is no (or little to no) O2 inside the tube, so the PARTIAL pressure of the O2 inside the hose is lower even though the ABSOLUTE pressure is higher. Therefore the direction of O2 diffusion will be into the hose.

The rate of diffusion to equalize is based on the hose permeability and pressure diff.

EDIT: Three answers at once😂
 

twd000

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The oxygen doesn't care about the other gasses in the system. The rate of diffusion is determined by the oxygen permeability of the barrier, the thickness and surface area of the barrier, and the magnitude of the difference in partial pressures on either side of the barrier. Some people just unhook their gas lines from their kegs when not in use and call it good enough.

Here is a calculation which explains the consequences. On Serving: A Look at Total Oxygen Ingess - The Modern Brewhouse

I think he overdid it with assuming 15 feet of gas and beer lines for each keg. But you can adjust the variables and decide for yourself if you are concerned about the amount of oxygen getting into your keg from your gas lines. I was concerned and did swap them all out.

huh - i never thought of that, but it makes sense. I was thinking of re-building my CO2 manifold anyways so it would make sense to upgrade to the EVA at the same time. I'll need to figure out how to replace all those barb fittings with Duotight fittings.
 

eric19312

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huh - i never thought of that, but it makes sense. I was thinking of re-building my CO2 manifold anyways so it would make sense to upgrade to the EVA at the same time. I'll need to figure out how to replace all those barb fittings with Duotight fittings.
just get a new manifold with MFLs. Or read endless pages of peoples experience using swagging tools and heat guns and hair dryers and four letter words to get them work with barbs.

 

cheesebach

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So I think It's time to get rid of the huge coils of bevflex ultra and get some shorter lines with more resistance. I have intertap flow control faucets, but have to restrict a lot to get them to pour without too much head. I think I've got a 50' coil split unevenly between 3 taps. I have my temp set to about 40-41, and use 8-15psi depending on style. I hypothesize that using the flow control to really dial up some back pressure is a little counter-productive because it introduces turbulence that still results in foam. I've had these lines ~2.5 years since I built my setup, and I'm hoping this will allow shorter, easier to manage lines that will let me open up my taps a bit more.

I have a question about CO2 lines, though. I built with hardware store, thick-walled, reinforced vinyl gas lines. Is that a serious concern for oxygen ingress? Should I buy some 5mm tubing to redo the gas lines?
One other consideration/suggestion that I'd have (if the flow control feature is important to you) would be to think about swapping those intertap flow control faucets for perlicks. I bought one of each to try when I decided to move to flow control faucets, and the flow control feature on the intertap is worthless compared to the one on the perlick. I was never able to dial back the flow any noticeable amount with the intertap without increasing foaming (which is opposite its intended purpose), but with the perlick I can slow it down to almost a trickle before things start foaming. It's perfect for filling up growlers or even 12oz bottles with little to no foam right from the tap to take on the go or give to friends. May or may not be a worthwhile/feasible option for you, but just wanted to mention in.

In my case (with the Perlick FC), I used to run ~9ft of Bevseal Ultra, and I'm now using just over 4ft of the EVA Barrier 4mm. I typically leave the FC wide open (except to fill growlers, etc.) and don't have any trouble with foam.
 

tennesseean_87

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One other consideration/suggestion that I'd have (if the flow control feature is important to you) would be to think about swapping those intertap flow control faucets for perlicks. I bought one of each to try when I decided to move to flow control faucets, and the flow control feature on the intertap is worthless compared to the one on the perlick. I was never able to dial back the flow any noticeable amount with the intertap without increasing foaming (which is opposite its intended purpose), but with the perlick I can slow it down to almost a trickle before things start foaming. It's perfect for filling up growlers or even 12oz bottles with little to no foam right from the tap to take on the go or give to friends. May or may not be a worthwhile/feasible option for you, but just wanted to mention in.

In my case (with the Perlick FC), I used to run ~9ft of Bevseal Ultra, and I'm now using just over 4ft of the EVA Barrier 4mm. I typically leave the FC wide open (except to fill growlers, etc.) and don't have any trouble with foam.
This is interesting to hear. I am not in a position to swap the taps out at the moment, but I may keep it in mind for the future. It'll sort of be a shame, because I thought getting stainless flow control would be a buy-once-cry-once sort of investment.

I remember this thought entering my head when watching this video which mentioned turbulence at the tap causing foam. When I fill bottles/growlers, I use a stopper for back pressure and open the FC all the way, and I get less foam.

I'm not sure if it matters, but I'm about a mile high (lower atmospheric pressure). I also don't do lots of pours in a row, so I know I get a lot of foam from first pour, so trying to minimize where I can.

For 3 taps I now have 11, 12, and 16 feet of 4mm tubing run. I've got a London Porter carbing on the shortest line and the others are still empty. We'll see how things pour on this setup. I know it's way more line than most people are using.
 

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Okay, I wanted to post something here that folks may run into which I did not realize going into this:
  1. Perlick taps do not use an o-ring in the shank/collar, they seal with an o-ring in the tap
  2. Intertap seals with an o-ring in the shank/collar
  3. While you may think Perlick will fit on Intertap shanks, and they sort of will, at least the flow-control does not work well. Two of three destroyed the o-rings in the collar, all three nearly seized on the shanks when tightened enough to not leak
All in all, that was not fun. If you get the recommended Intertap shanks (and they do work well for connecting the lines) you will need Intertap taps.

Anyone know what the right size/part number is to replace those damned o-rings?
 

kxavier_23

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So I just upgraded to 4mm Eva lines and I am getting all kinds of foam. I do use Perlick FCs and if I restrict them to almost closed, I can mostly control it, bit it is a huge difference (not in a good way) over my old think-walled lines.

I ran the number through Determining Proper hose length for your Kegerator and it comes up with 4.5ft of line.

I also just put in a RasberryPints setup with flow meters. My distance are keg --> meter 2 1/2 ft and meter --> tap 2 ft. Keezer is @ 42 degrees and keg set @12.5 PSI.

There was a video posted earlier about the Perlick FCs having more mass, and needing more time to cool down, but I have only converted one of the 4 taps and the other 3 with the old lines do not act like this.

Thoughts?
 

day_trippr

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Might be a bit short on the total length. I run 6 feet total length of 4mm ID on most of my faucets.

In any case, unplug the tubing and rearrange the sections to put the flow meters close to their kegs. My sf800s are ~10" from the beer qds. Zero issues here...

Cheers!
 
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