Accuflex Ultra 235 vs Kegland EVA barrier

[Woodie]

Has anyone used the EVA Barrier in a long draw system? My Keezer is in the basement directly below my taps. From the center of a keg to the tap is about an 11 ft rise with another 3 or 4 horizontal feet needed to get from the keg out of the Keezer.

I did my current setup about 6 months ago with BevSeal Ultra. In doing my research I determined that I needed to go up to the 1/4 inch Bevseal which was a mistake. At this point I have about 50ft on each of my 4 taps with a pair of Intertap FC and a pair of Perlick FC taps. I still have problems getting a non-foamy consistent pour (its not terrible but could be way better). I am circulating glycol along with the beer lines so my temp is about 38 degrees at the tap.

Using Mike Soltys calculator @ 10 psi and a 10 second pour I would have to move up to the 6 mm tubing. If I fiddle with these numbers and go up to 11 psi and/or a flow rate of 13 seconds per pint I can stay with the 5 mm but just barely.

These calculations are done assuming the EVA has the same roughness as vinyl (0.000016). Can anyone give me some thoughts on which way to go? Do these lines seem be rougher or smoother (slower or faster) than vinyl?

Getting these lines in and out of the wall is a real chore so I don't want to do it wrong again. If there is a chance I can do the 5 mm I think that would be best since the fittings are (from what I can tell) more readily available for the 5 mm stuff. This is unfortunately an all or nothing scenario as I have to disassemble everything to get into the wall to replace the lines and can't really hook it back up partially to test. Right now I am thinking I do the 6 mm and start with 20ft, then trim down from there just so I don't have any problems but would really like to do the 5 mm if its reasonable that I could make it work.

 

[Yesfan]

^^ I didn't think they made a 6mm line. I thought 4mm and 5 mm was it.

Where did you get the 6mm line from?

 

[Woodie]

I have not purchased any of it yet but here it is
https://www.morebeer.com/products/e...tubing-1564-6-mm-id-38-95-od-placeholder.html

 

[Jayjay1976]

^^ I didn't think they made a 6mm line. I thought 4mm and 5 mm was it.

Where did you get the 6mm line from?

Just a note of caution, that 6mm ID tubing which has an OD of 9.5mm, requires different fittings than the 4&5mm tubing, both of which have an OD of 8mm.

 

[Woodie]

Just a note of caution, that 6mm ID tubing which has an OD of 9.5mm, requires different fittings than the 4&5mm tubing, both of which have an OD of 8mm.

Yeah - that is actually exactly why I want to stick to the 4/5 mm if possible. Not only are the different but the options for the 6 mm are limited (at least from morebeer.com)

 

[Yesfan]

Thanks for the heads up. I was wondering if 6mm would be a better solution for the gas line between my tank and distributor.

If these go on a barb much easier (what's on my tank and distributor), I still may consider it. I'm wondering if I flared the ends like mentioned before would work.

 

[day_trippr]

There's truly no reason for wide-bore gas lines. I've always used 3/16" ID for gas, now using 5mm ID EVA because was easier to use with my existing 1/4" barbed manifold and 3/8" barbed nitro regulator (stupid choice by Micromatic there).

Anyway...

The 10' rise (with the 3-4' lateral) will be the reason why I don't think the 5mm ID EVAbarrier tubing will work. That rise "replaces" a lot of line wrt net resistance as Mike's calculator shows - if I use those numbers with the 5mm/0.1968498" ID tubing the total line length is just over 8.5' - so you can't actually reach the faucets from the keezer!

I think the 6mm tubing is pretty much necessary in this case. And given the apparent effort needed to run new lines I would definitely take the time to experiment with line length and see what works before running all of the lines in the wall.

btw, I have no idea what the relative roughness of the EVAbarrier tubing is, so that's a crap shoot. I can say I'm running 6' EVA 4mm lines instead of the 12' of Bevlex 200 solid PVC 3/16" ID I used to run and the pours are indistinguishable (and excellent).

I'm not sure how one would use this data, but Mike's calculator wanted me to use 9.8' of the Bevlex, or 4.5' of the EVA 4mm, using the same default roughness constant. Perhaps using 33% more line than what Mike's calculator advises would match up with where I am...but in the case above with 5mm line, that +33% above Mike's calculation still only makes 11.3', still not enough line.

Cheers!

 

[Jayjay1976]

Thanks for the heads up. I was wondering if 6mm would be a better solution for the gas line between my tank and distributor.

If these go on a barb much easier (what's on my tank and distributor), I still may consider it. I'm wondering if I flared the ends like mentioned before would work.

My system is newly built and although I went with all EVABarrier tubing and fittings on the beer side, I built the gas side with conventional gas tubing, barbed fittings, and oetker clamps.

Then the other day I connected the gas disconnect to a full and highly pressurized keg; with the regulator outlet shut off there was little pressure in the gas line so a bit of beer shot up into the tubing, which obviously has fouled it and now it needs to be cleaned and sanitized. When this keg kicks I'm going to have to cut the oetker off along with the end bit of tubing to remove and clean out the line. It would be much easier if I had gone with 1/4" flare fittings from the get-go to make the lines serviceable, but now I've decided to change out my whole gas side to use the same 4mm EVABarrier tubing and fittings as my beer side, just to add flexibility to my setup and simplify my spare parts inventory. I have no worries about the small tubing restricting the flow of CO2 because I'm serving kegs of homebrew at a homebrew rate of a few pints a week.

 

[day_trippr]

Right. We're not powering air tools here
Virtually all of the "push" for a pour is available from the keg head space, and the recharge rate is so rapid as to be a non-issue...

Cheers!

 

[Woodie]

I guess I am convinced I have to use the 6 mm tubing. I really hope it works out better than the Bev Seal Ultra, Don't want to end up with 100's of extra feet of tubing coiled up. Right now with my 4 taps I have about 140 feet of tube coiled up in the Keezer and its just a pain. Also hoping to move up to six taps when I take this all apart so that would be another 70 feet. Kinda ridiculous. But reading all of this thread it does seem like most people are saying the Eva adds more resistance than the Bev Seal so hopefully all will be well.

 

[MikeCo]

Is there any way you can test the 5mm by running the targeted length up some stairs or through an opening in the ceiling? Or otherwise test it with the length and elevation change you need without fully installing it in your keezer? You would have to get a small length of the 5mm first to do this, but then it's just a matter of connecting a faucet or picnic tap to a keg with the new line to test it. The keg and faucet don't need to be in the keezer.

If the 5mm works, I would be inclined to use it for the availability of fittings and reduced amount of excess line in the keezer. A slightly slower pour would not bother me for a home system.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I guess I am convinced I have to use the 6 mm tubing. I really hope it works out better than the Bev Seal Ultra, Don't want to end up with 100's of extra feet of tubing coiled up. Right now with my 4 taps I have about 140 feet of tube coiled up in the Keezer and its just a pain. Also hoping to move up to six taps when I take this all apart so that would be another 70 feet. Kinda ridiculous. But reading all of this thread it does seem like most people are saying the Eva adds more resistance than the Bev Seal so hopefully all will be well.

If you want shorter lines, go with the 4mm tubing. That's what I use, my lines are 6.5' long and I get great pours on 12 psi.

 

[Woodie]

Is there any way you can test the 5mm by running the targeted length up some stairs or through an opening in the ceiling? Or otherwise test it with the length and elevation change you need without fully installing it in your keezer? You would have to get a small length of the 5mm first to do this, but then it's just a matter of connecting a faucet or picnic tap to a keg with the new line to test it. The keg and faucet don't need to be in the keezer.

If the 5mm works, I would be inclined to use it for the availability of fittings and reduced amount of excess line in the keezer. A slightly slower pour would not bother me for a home system.

Unfortunately I don't have a way to get it up the wall without taking the existing system all apart (nightmare) but it occurred to me that I do have a 14 ft A-Frame ladder, an extra CO2 Tank/Regulator/Tap, and a keg full of a failed batch of lager I need to dump. So I threw the keg back in the keezer this morning and ordered some 5 mm to give it a shot. That should simulate it close enough. Its worth a couple of bucks to try it out and see what happens. I have a feeling its just not going to work but with the effort required to try it out being fairly minimal I am going to give it a go. If nothing else I should be able to post back results that someone else might find useful.

I can only imagine what my neighbors are going to think when they see me on a ladder in my back yard dispensing beer. Its probably worth it just to see their reaction.

 

[day_trippr]

The 6mm could serve as a "trunk line" to make the distance and lift, with enough 4mm "choker" tubing at the end to tune the pour. That would greatly reduce the amount of 6mm tubing needed. Just stick one of these in the middle...

https://www.morebeer.com/products/duotight-pushin-fitting-8-mm-516-95-38-reducer.html

Cheers!

 

[Woodie]

The 6mm could serve as a "trunk line" to make the distance and lift, with enough 4mm "choker" tubing at the end to tune the pour. That would greatly reduce the amount of 6mm tubing needed. Just stick one of these in the middle...

https://www.morebeer.com/products/duotight-pushin-fitting-8-mm-516-95-38-reducer.html

Cheers!

The choker is a possibility and I actually already have that going on now with the BevSeal tubing. I am hoping the EVA is flexible enough to eliminate the vinyl shown below (but I doubt it). The pictures are from before I 100% finished so there is no drip tray or handles but, you can tell how cramped I am for space. It seems to me like I will need to do some re-engineering of my system when I take it apart. For now I think I will test the 5 mm and report back.

Sorry to hijack the thread with my dysfunction!!!

 

[day_trippr]

9.5mm trunk lines will be the same OD as your 1/4" Ultra, but the transitional fittings will be shorter and skinnier than what you're using now, and the 8mm choker tubing OD would be thinner than the PVC tubing you have there.

As for bend radius: this is the 4mm tubing. I doubt the Ultra can do that

My bet is it'll be easier to plumb than the original...

Cheers!

 

[Woodie]

That bend radius is definitely better than the ultra... Looks like it should be substantially easier.

 

[Jayjay1976]

That bend radius is definitely better than the ultra... Looks like it should be substantially easier.

I have the 4mm too and I am highly impressed overall, but especially in terms of it's bendability EVABarrier is the bee's knees! BTW does anyone know the radius of a bee's knee? Because this stuff can prolly match it.

 

[day_trippr]

In that picture, the edge of the PTC fitting is about 1/2" into the near edge of the 3" diameter column hole, and the bend is overhanging the far edge by about 1/4", so that's surely no more than a 1-1/2" bend radius....

Cheers!

 

[CantWinThisGame]

He also, like so many homebrewers, doesn't seem to grasp that keeping oxygen out of your beer is a good thing, so there's that to overcome before demand goes up.

Usually the beer doesn't last long enough in my kegs to worry about oxygen. LOL

 

[arrasmithf]

OMG! I have been reading through these forums for hours looking for this EXACT post! I love you guys! I am planning the same thing for similar reason. Kegerator taking up too much space in the dining area so I moved it down to garage. I need to run approximately 15 vertical feet to get to faucets upstairs. I like the Kegland products and I was thinking about going with the 5mm EVA tubing but the beer line calc that everyone references here is confusing to me with so much vertical rise and no accounting for smoothness of the EVA tubing. Also someone referenced the wrong diameter in the calc. The 5mm tubing should be .2031” so it’s an incorrect suggestion I think. I know too short or not enough restriction will result in foam but what I don’t hear about much on this thread is if the line is too long or too much restriction will it just be a little slower or will beer not even make it to the faucets? PLEASE post an update if you run that test. My budget Is tight for this project and I can’t afford to do it twice. Also post some more pics of that setup. Looks high tech.

 

[arrasmithf]

Ok, this online calculator(below) is so much better. It allows you to specify the inside diameter of tubing (EVA 5mm= .2031) and it measures flow rate. So I put in 15’ of line and 15’ vertical rise and adjusted the flow rate to 13 seconds per pint(which is totally acceptable for me) and I get my preferred PSI of 14 which works for my carbonation and temp. I have enough info now to proceed with minimum level of confidence. Still sorting out which pump and chilling liquid to go with. I will post pictures once I complete the project for any that are in the same situation http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/

 

[IslandLizard]

Ok, this online calculator(below) is so much better. It allows you to specify the inside diameter of tubing (EVA 5mm= .2031) and it measures flow rate. So I put in 15’ of line and 15’ vertical rise and adjusted the flow rate to 13 seconds per pint(which is totally acceptable for me) and I get my preferred PSI of 14 which works for my carbonation and temp. I have enough info now to proceed with minimum level of confidence. Still sorting out which pump and chilling liquid to go with. I will post pictures once I complete the project for any that are in the same situation http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/

The key with trunk lines is, aside from having chilling tubes, good insulation around the bundle to limit heat loss.

You may still experience foamier pours (and sometimes reduced head) on the first ounces of a pour due to getting beer from the line first. Even with glycol chilling lines, beer sitting in a line and junctions (like in a tower) will have different temps than the keg, disturbing the fine balance of temp/pressure/carbonation level.

 

[LBussy]

Heya guys. Has anyone found a solution for the 3/8 BSP to 8mm? I need that for my flow meters.

ETA: Looks like I need John Guest PI451213S but I can;t seem to find anyone in the US that sells them for a reasonable price.

 

[garzlok]

https://www.freshwatersystems.com/products/john-guest-female-adapter-bspp-3-8-x-3-8-bspp
This is the site I used and which others have referenced many times on HBT. Not certain if this meets your definition of reasonable price.

 

[LBussy]

Thank you, sir - that's reasonable enough.

Does this tubing require a special cutter? Now is the time to buy that one last piece. I have an anvil cutter that uses a drywall blade, which makes short work of regular tubing. I'm not sure whether this stuff needs one of those purpose-built items or not.

 

[garzlok]

Thank you, sir - that's reasonable enough.

Does this tubing require a special cutter? Now is the time to buy that one last piece. I have an anvil cutter that uses a drywall blade, which makes short work of regular tubing. I'm not sure whether this stuff needs one of those purpose-built items or not.

No problem!

For better, or worse...I used my Free.99 Harbor Freight scissors to cut my tubing. You just have to make sure it’s a nice squared off cut with no burrs.

 

[MikeCo]

I bought one of these cutters when I bought the tubing and fittings from Williams. It works nicely for square cuts and is cheap.

https://www.williamsbrewing.com/Duotight-Tubing-Cutter-P4742.aspx

 

[LBussy]

Okay, I'm irked. I purchased all the parts and getting all of them in (or so I thought) took about a month from various suppliers. I head out to the garage with a frosty beverage and I find out the fittings on my regulator are LEFT-HANDED.

Anyone come across this and solve it? I can't seem to find 1/4" NPT LH to 8mm.

 

[MikeCo]

That's strange - my regulators all have right-hand threads. What brand regulator do you have?