ABV tampering advice, what do you think?

[OG2620]

By the way, there seems to be some confusion here.

You DO get fermentables from crystal malt, along with color and flavor. The amount of fermentables isn't all that significant (say, 1% ABV or so) but you do get them.

Try it and see! Steep a pound of crystal malt (crushed) in .5 gallon of water. And then take the SG reading of that. You'll have some sugars, for sure!

I'd hate to derail this thread any further, but I have to ask.

Is it true that a crystal malt will have both fermentable and non-fermentable sugars available? And if so, is it possible for the non-fermentable sugars to be broken down by diastatic enzymes in a mash (containing adequate 2-row) which could provide a higher fermentable sugar yield as opposed to merely steeping to strip off the already fermentable sugars?

FWIW, I can start a new thread if needed.

 

[Yooper]

I'd hate to derail this thread any further, but I have to ask.

Is it true that a crystal malt will have both fermentable and non-fermentable sugars available? And if so, is it possible for the non-fermentable sugars to be broken down by diastatic enzymes in a mash (containing adequate 2-row) which could provide a higher fermentable sugar yield as opposed to merely steeping to strip off the already fermentable sugars?

FWIW, I can start a new thread if needed.

Boy, I'm not mash chemist, but my understanding is that yes, you may get a little more out of certain specialty grains by mashing them with base malt with excess diastatic power- but not most of them.

 

[madchemist83]

It's "premashed" so to speak, but it still needs to be crushed. The sugars AREN'T on the outside, on the husks (how would that happen?!?) but since it's stewed before kilning, it's already mashed for you so that the sugars are crystallized. Crushing them is imperative, but they can be steeped successfully.

I disagree. You don't have to crush specialty grains to extract flavor and/or color. There is a good article in BYO about it. As an example u can add 1 oz of uncrushed chocolate malt to a lager recipie to give it a touch of nutty flavor. And the part about sugars being on the surface of the grain I think it's possible. Husks can probably leach some sugars during in grain mashing.

 

[Yooper]

I disagree. You don't have to crush specialty grains to extract flavor and/or color. There is a good article in BYO about it. As an example u can add 1 oz of uncrushed chocolate malt to a lager recipie to give it a touch of nutty flavor. And the part about sugars being on the surface of the grain I think it's possible. Husks can probably leach some sugars during in grain mashing.

Ok. I haven't seen the science to support your claims, and I don't know how the sugars escape the endosperm to be embedded in the husks, but whatever you say.


Using a black malt uncrushed to get some color or nutty flavor is one thing, and I suspect you could do that with coffee beans or nuts, but it's not the same as using crystal 20L malt.

 

[DrummerBoySeth]

Hmmm, I've never used either of those calcs that you linked, but I'll check them (maybe just one since you're getting similar results) out and see how it compares to what BS2 is Hopefully someone who's used one of those can chime in.

For the last year, I have used Brewers Friend almost exclusively as my recipe calculation software. I have done 8 extract/steeping grains batches using their software. I have found their SG calculators to be very accurate. I am getting measured SG readings within .001 or .002 of what BF predicts on every batch. Since their calculator indicates that steeping grains contribute a measureable amount of fermentables to the batch, and my Hydro readings are matching their predictions, it seems to me that steeping grains do actually contribute to SG.

I have some leftover grains from previous batches that I do not currently have plans for. I think it is just under a pound (total) of Flaked Wheat, Oats, Aromatic, and de-bittered black malt. If I have enough time this weekend to do the experiment, I will throw them all in a pot, steep at 152 for 30 minutes, cool to room temp, and measure gravity. That would offer some real insight into this question...

 

[madchemist83]

I bet if u steep crystal 20l you'll get some flavor. Science behind it is that husk is permeable especially when exposed to water and high temp as it happens during in grain mash. It's definitely insignificant amount, but it's there.

 

[headbanger]

You could boil up another couple pounds of DME with more hops than the first attempt to make wort with higher bitterness to add to your fermenter. Add this to the fermenter when the fermentation slows. Staggered sugar additions like this will reduce the chance of stressing the yeast, and help increase the ABV and bitterness. That way you can save the batch.

I kind of like Drummer's idea.. the later sugar additions would also help dry things out a bit.

Just be sterile about it.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

For the last year, I have used Brewers Friend almost exclusively as my recipe calculation software. I have done 8 extract/steeping grains batches using their software. I have found their SG calculators to be very accurate. I am getting measured SG readings within .001 or .002 of what BF predicts on every batch. Since their calculator indicates that steeping grains contribute a measureable amount of fermentables to the batch, and my Hydro readings are matching their predictions, it seems to me that steeping grains do actually contribute to SG.

I have some leftover grains from previous batches that I do not currently have plans for. I think it is just under a pound (total) of Flaked Wheat, Oats, Aromatic, and de-bittered black malt. If I have enough time this weekend to do the experiment, I will throw them all in a pot, steep at 152 for 30 minutes, cool to room temp, and measure gravity. That would offer some real insight into this question...

Sweet man. I'll do a similar experiment over the weekend. I have some old cara malts and dry yeast that I'm not gonna brew with. I'll put together a pound, crush it (sorry MadChemise83, not gonna steep any uncrushed grain for u ), steep in one gallon of water at ~150-ish for 30 mins. I'll check gravity and I'll pitch yeast. Super crude experiments for sure, but it'll get the job done.

Boy, I'm not mash chemist

You're obviously not a mad chemist either, Yoop.



Sorry, I couldn't resist.

 

[madchemist83]

. . .

 

[madchemist83]

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[OG2620]

. . .

Huh?

 

[Tombstone0]

Here's a link to an experiment done on the fermentability of crystal malts.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/testing-fermentability-crystal-malt-208361/

 

[Ogri]

For the last year, I have used Brewers Friend almost exclusively as my recipe calculation software. I have done 8 extract/steeping grains batches using their software. I have found their SG calculators to be very accurate. I am getting measured SG readings within .001 or .002 of what BF predicts on every batch. Since their calculator indicates that steeping grains contribute a measureable amount of fermentables to the batch, and my Hydro readings are matching their predictions, it seems to me that steeping grains do actually contribute to SG.

Maybe I'm completely missing something here but isn't it indisputable that steeping grains will contribute to SG/OG?? Yes, steeping will collect sugar. Sugar will affect the SG/OG. That doesn't necessarily equate to FG though, or does it? Edit: Just realised that, of course, steeped grain sugars are going to affect FG. They are going to make the FG higher due to their un-fermentability.


Whether, or not, that sugar is fermentable or unfermentable, or what percentages of fermentables/unfermentables this sugar comprises, will dictate the resulting FG reading, wouldn't it?? unless I'm totally off the mark (which could very easily be the case)

 

[freisste]

I think it is just under a pound (total) of Flaked Wheat, Oats, Aromatic, and de-bittered black malt. If I have enough time this weekend to do the experiment, I will throw them all in a pot, steep at 152 for 30 minutes, cool to room temp, and measure gravity. That would offer some real insight into this question...

Hey, I don't want to make your life too complicated, but you could steep each individually to determine if there is a large disparity between each different grain. That would be really cool.

And if I am not making it complicated enough, there are 15 different combinations of those four grains. You could test all of the combos...

 

[DrummerBoySeth]

Hey, I don't want to make your life too complicated, but you could steep each individually to determine if there is a large disparity between each different grain. That would be really cool.

And if I am not making it complicated enough, there are 15 different combinations of those four grains. You could test all of the combos...

The amounts that I have are fairly small. Probably 1/2 pound or less of each one (except flaked oats, which I have more than 10 pounds of, because my wife cooks with it!) I do not have enough to do mulitple combinations, but I will have to look and see how much of each I actually have left... I also have an ounce of EKG in the fridge. If I get any sugars out of this crazy experiment, I may have to run out for some yeast and brew up a 1 gallon frankenstein!

It will have to wait until much later this evening, or maybe tomorrow, though, because SWMBO has previous plans that will keep me preoccupied until about 9:00 this evening!

 

[freisste]

No problem. I was mostly kidding.

I actually am a little curious about how each individual component reacts, but I am more interested in an overall yes/no. Can't wait to hear the results.

 

[papa87]

j

 

[larrybrewer]

Brewer's Friend allows you to set the extraction efficiency for the steeping grains on an extract batch. The recommendation is something low like 25-50% at first.