a touch of sour in a saison

[Owly055]

I've brewed a few beers using Lalemand's Belle Saison, and been surprised at how yeast forward it is.... The yeast provides a strongly estery profile and a touch of cloves... the latter being a flavor where a little can go a long way.

I'm told that fermentation temps will effect these characteristics, and in this case they are not excessive, and it would be kind of pointless to brew with a Belgian Saison yeast and try to achieve a "neutral" flavor.

It seems logical that a bit of lacto sour would enhance a saison, perhaps 24 hours... just enough to give it a bit of a tang. It also seems like Nelson Sauvin would be a good hop to go with as Nelson seems to pair extremely well with the non-citrus fruity hops usually described as stone fruit, berry, mellon, etc.

I'd be interested to try a foray in this direction, but I know from experience that sour and bitter are NOT good companions, which suggests that a light hand with the hops is in order, perhaps sub 20 IBU range instead of the 40's and 50's where I usually "live".

I'd be interested in hearing about other experiences in this area.......


H.W.

 

[badlee]

This is something that I have done a few times.
Belle Saison and Lacto play very well together.
Lacto and Nelson also play very well together.
My standard "sour Saison" is a partial mash. 12 litres total.
I mash about 1kg of grain,wheat pilsner mix.
Sparge as normal,add 1kg(2.2lb) of extra light DME. Boil for 15 minutes with 5ibu of Nelson@15 and another 5@5.
Cool to about 30-32c and pitch Lacto Brevis.
I let this go for a week and then pitch a starter of Belle Saison.
At the two week mark I dry hop with about 80gr(3oz?) Of Nelson for 5 days and bottle.
It is a fantastic blurr of lines between an IPA,Saison and Berliner Weisse. You have Saison yeast profile,beautiful sourness and the very complimentary winey quality of the Nelson.
The IBU level is also a very strange place for me,as I tend to hop my 1.040 beers to 60-70.
It just works and is perfect for hot weather drinking

 

[FatDragon]

This is something that I have done a few times.
Belle Saison and Lacto play very well together.
Lacto and Nelson also play very well together.
My standard "sour Saison" is a partial mash. 12 litres total.
I mash about 1kg of grain,wheat pilsner mix.
Sparge as normal,add 1kg(2.2lb) of extra light DME. Boil for 15 minutes with 5ibu of Nelson@15 and another 5@5.
Cool to about 30-32c and pitch Lacto Brevis.
I let this go for a week and then pitch a starter of Belle Saison.
At the two week mark I dry hop with about 80gr(3oz?) Of Nelson for 5 days and bottle.
It is a fantastic blurr of lines between an IPA,Saison and Berliner Weisse. You have Saison yeast profile,beautiful sourness and the very complimentary winey quality of the Nelson.
The IBU level is also a very strange place for me,as I tend to hop my 1.040 beers to 60-70.
It just works and is perfect for hot weather drinking

Every time I read your posts, it makes me want to get a cheap Air Asia ticket and fly down to Chiang Mai for some beers and some pointers. This sounds like a fantastic brew - I don't have access to a lacto strain like that, but I'm strongly tempted to try a sour mash so I can try to imitate this.

 

[badlee]

Fatdragon,thank you.
Where are you?
Maybe you could get some lacto brevis?
PM me

 

[Owly055]

This is something that I have done a few times.
Belle Saison and Lacto play very well together.
Lacto and Nelson also play very well together.
My standard "sour Saison" is a partial mash. 12 litres total.
I mash about 1kg of grain,wheat pilsner mix.
Sparge as normal,add 1kg(2.2lb) of extra light DME. Boil for 15 minutes with 5ibu of Nelson@15 and another 5@5.
Cool to about 30-32c and pitch Lacto Brevis.
I let this go for a week and then pitch a starter of Belle Saison.
At the two week mark I dry hop with about 80gr(3oz?) Of Nelson for 5 days and bottle.
It is a fantastic blurr of lines between an IPA,Saison and Berliner Weisse. You have Saison yeast profile,beautiful sourness and the very complimentary winey quality of the Nelson.
The IBU level is also a very strange place for me,as I tend to hop my 1.040 beers to 60-70.
It just works and is perfect for hot weather drinking

I've never pitched lacto b, but I've sprinkled two row on after mashing..... the souring was quite rapid...... 3 days and it was very sour. Should I buy a culture?

I presume you mean a 60 minute boil with 5 IBUs worth of Nelson at 15 and at 5 from end of boil....... for a total of 10 IBUs. For my 2.5 gallon brews, this would be about 3 grams at 15 min and 8 grams at 5 min. The quantities are so small I had to go to grams.

I'd thought of doing considerably less sourness than I assume you are doing.


H.W.

 

[badlee]

No,not a 60 minute boil. A grand total of 15 minutes boil time.
I would say buy it,pitch it,taste it every 12 hours. When it nears a nice sourness level,pitch the Saison ans away you go!

 

[Owly055]

No,not a 60 minute boil. A grand total of 15 minutes boil time.
I would say buy it,pitch it,taste it every 12 hours. When it nears a nice sourness level,pitch the Saison ans away you go!

Why the ultra short boil? .......... also do you take any measures to suppress the lacto before pitching the yeast?


H.W.

 

[badlee]

Ultra short boil because I want extra sourness. I do nothing to supress the sourness,I embrace it.
It has been mentioed that Lacto likes a short boil with wheat,so.....

 

[Juno_Malone]

This is something that I have done a few times.
Belle Saison and Lacto play very well together.
Lacto and Nelson also play very well together.
My standard "sour Saison" is a partial mash. 12 litres total.
I mash about 1kg of grain,wheat pilsner mix.
Sparge as normal,add 1kg(2.2lb) of extra light DME. Boil for 15 minutes with 5ibu of Nelson@15 and another 5@5.
Cool to about 30-32c and pitch Lacto Brevis.
I let this go for a week and then pitch a starter of Belle Saison.
At the two week mark I dry hop with about 80gr(3oz?) Of Nelson for 5 days and bottle.
It is a fantastic blurr of lines between an IPA,Saison and Berliner Weisse. You have Saison yeast profile,beautiful sourness and the very complimentary winey quality of the Nelson.
The IBU level is also a very strange place for me,as I tend to hop my 1.040 beers to 60-70.
It just works and is perfect for hot weather drinking

EDIT: Nevermind - I found it here: https://badleebrewed.wordpress.com/2015/02/23/hmiltons-harley-nelson-a-dry-hopped-saison/

This sounds amazing. Do you have this recipe laid out in your blog somewhere? What I'm seeing is:

1lb Pilsner malt
1lb Wheat malt
Mash @ 150F (?).
15 minute boil:
2.2lb extra light DME @ 15min
5 IBU of nelson sauvin @ 15 min
5 IBU of nelson sauvin @ 5 min
3oz nelson sauvin @ dry hop
Pitch Lacto Brevis at 30-32C, wait a week, pitch Belle Saison starter.

I've never done a sour before, but reading about this makes me want to take that leap...

 

[beergolf]

I've never done a sour before, but reading about this makes me want to take that leap...

Once you do you are hooked.. I did my first one and had to go out and buy several more carboys to age sours in so I don't mess up my regular pipeline. I have 5 sours going at this time. Drinking one right now....

 

[badlee]

@Juno_Malone,that is about it.
I did the first one as an experiment. Wanted to see if it would be drinkable.
What I got was much better than I had dared hope for.
That short boil lets you keep the flavour and aroma of the hops. The sourness somehow manages to "protect"the dry hop profile for longer and keep it "fresh"

 

[Owly055]

Badlee

I plan to try the saison sour this week once I get a fermenter emptied. My intent is to enhance the fruity character further by using some Motueka or Calliente, both of which seem to pair extremely well with Nelson. I'll hop with one of these very close to flame out so as to contribute flavor and aroma but not much in terms of IBUs.

Have you tried using an Abbaye or Trappist in this way?

One thing I'm NOT is style bound......... You obviously are not either. Nelson is a wonderful hop that I am never without. It pairs well with any non-citrus fruity hop if you get your proportions right. I recently polished off the last of a Nelson Chocolate Stout.... That on a whim contained real pork juice ( "pork chop in every bottle" ).... the Nelson made a superb hop for a stout, but I was criticized for being "out of style" My next stout will be a chocolate cherry Nelson stout. but that's a couple of months off.

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

I just googled Gose ............ and found a description of a beer that was innoculated with lactobacillus AFTER the boil........ I wonder about the interplay between yeast and lactobacillus, alcohol and lactic acid.......... How much lacto growth can exist as alcohol level increases, and how much yeast growth can take place as lactic acid increases. Reminds me of kombucha, but with lacto instead of aceto......


H.W.

 

[badlee]

Owly055
I just bottled a sour saison done with Motueka in place of the Nelson,and cannot wait to crack a bottle open

 

[Owly055]

Owly055
I just bottled a sour saison done with Motueka in place of the Nelson,and cannot wait to crack a bottle open

Motueka bears no resemblance to Nelson, but compliments it very well. One of my favorite brews (my own recipe), uses Calypso, Motueka,. The Calypso provides the bittering and some fruity character, Motueka for it's tropical fruit flavors, and Nelson for it's incomparable flavor that you are already familiar with. I first encountered Nelson in Drifter Pale Ale by Widmer, and was disgusted when they were bought out by the big boys, and this great product discontinued. The BMC boys need to stick with brewing the swill they foisted off on us as "beer", and leave the micros alone. They obviously either don't know good beer when they taste it, or don't care!!


H.W.

 

[badlee]

A-men!
Back to your question about other yeast types, I have not tried either that you mentioned.
I have tried it with Brett Drie and liked the taste very much,but not the mouthfeel.

 

[IslandLizard]

[...] but I was criticized for being "out of style" [...] H.W.

Quite ironic huh? Styles are nice for competitions where they set benchmarks to judge against. Since one can't taste "style," wouldn't aroma, flavor, and mouthfeel be more appropriate to consider whether the beer is good or not?

I'll have a pint of your Nelson.

 

[gometz]

I'm actually planning a sour saison this weekend. But after a lot of back and forth I've decided to brew up 4.5 gallon of saison using just grains, then allow a honey/water mixture to sour using lacto b along side it. Once it's nice and sour I'll mix the two together, maybe with some Brett.

 

[Owly055]

I'm actually planning a sour saison this weekend. But after a lot of back and forth I've decided to brew up 4.5 gallon of saison using just grains, then allow a honey/water mixture to sour using lacto b along side it. Once it's nice and sour I'll mix the two together, maybe with some Brett.

I'm very interested in your results.......... Please post them here. I've had an abrupt change of direction yesterday. It's been a turbulent day to say the least. Two friends who have lived together for 30 years have announced that they are getting married..... I don't expect the sound of little feet, but at least they can try really hard ;-)

I won't go to the wedding........ I don't go to weddings. If I were ever to get married again, they'd have to celebrate the wedding without the presence of the groom ;-). But I intend to start working on a wedding brew instead the sour saison. The wedding is in June, so that leaves time for a couple of developmental brews if I don't depend on bottle conditioning. I'm going to play with Hibiscus Saisons using a light hop bill of Nelson Sauvin, and fermenting with Belle Saison, and also with USA-05 (separate brews) to see weather a Belgian complements the Hibiscus or detracts from it. I'm brewing the first iteration this evening, and it will include 2 row, some rye, and some wheat, and a small amount of Munich in a light grain bill, along with some invert sugar to keep it light but bump the ABV up to over 8%. I'm looking for the dramatic ruby color and tartness the hibiscus lends to beer. The hibiscus will go in along with a Nelson dry hop about 24 hours before it hits cold crash.

I ordered a Tap a Draft system from Williams that includes 3 PET growlers (1.5 gallons each), caps, a tap setup, and CO2 cartridges, and along with that I ordered a carbonation cap that fits the growlers as you cannot carb with the cartridges, and appropriate fittings. At a total of about $118 including freight. About the cheapest pseudo kegging system you can get, and small enough to fit in the fridge easily. It lacks the "cool factor" of a keg, but doesn't require a bottle and regulator for serving. It unfortunately lacks any sort of dip tube so they have to lay down for serving....... I'll have to engineer some sort of ice containment to go with them. At $10 per growler, I can afford to expand to more of them. Not a perfect or even an ideal system, but with my limited space, a reasonable alternative to kegs.


H.W.

 

[NathPowe]

I just brewed a "sour saison" with Belle Saison. Cosmic timing. My approach was the following:

1. Go buy a bottle of something reasonably fresh from Jolly Pumpkin (this time I went with a 3-month old bottle of Calabaza Blanca)
2. Brew up some low IBU saison wort
3. Have a celebratory beer - the aforementioned Calablaza Blanca (friggin delish).
4. Pitch Belle Saison yeast and the dregs from celebratory beer into the fermenter at the same time

At this point you can do whatever you like. You're going for a hoppy Nelson thing, which I think sounds great. So for that my approach would be to let gravity stabilize and flavor develop to your preference, give it a big blast of Nelson dry hops, then package after your preferred dry hop duration. The nice thing about the sour saisons is that the sach takes them so low that they don't have to be aged forever and a day before gravity is stable.

For the one I just did I racked onto a little oak after two weeks. At that time it was at 1.000 and had a very nice, pronounced tartness. Jolly Pumpkin dregs are fun. Obviously you could use different dregs, depending on preference/availability.

Lots of great ideas on here, so just throwing another one in the hat.

Cheers and enjoy the brew.

 

[gometz]

I just brewed a "sour saison" with Belle Saison. Cosmic timing. My approach was the following:

1. Go buy a bottle of something reasonably fresh from Jolly Pumpkin (this time I went with a 3-month old bottle of Calabaza Blanca)
2. Brew up some low IBU saison wort
3. Have a celebratory beer - the aforementioned Calablaza Blanca (friggin delish).
4. Pitch Belle Saison yeast and the dregs from celebratory beer into the fermenter at the same time

At this point you can do whatever you like. You're going for a hoppy Nelson thing, which I think sounds great. So for that my approach would be to let gravity stabilize and flavor develop to your preference, give it a big blast of Nelson dry hops, then package after your preferred dry hop duration. The nice thing about the sour saisons is that the sach takes them so low that they don't have to be aged forever and a day before gravity is stable.

For the one I just did I racked onto a little oak after two weeks. At that time it was at 1.000 and had a very nice, pronounced tartness. Jolly Pumpkin dregs are fun. Obviously you could use different dregs, depending on preference/availability.

Lots of great ideas on here, so just throwing another one in the hat.

Cheers and enjoy the brew.

Would you recommend using lacto b instead of dregs?

 

[badlee]

If I could get JP dregs(famous for quick work) I would give them a go.
But,even on a dregs timeline that is "quick" it will not get you bottled in 3-4 weeks.
The Lacto Brevis is a good alternative for when you need your sour,but do not fancy waiting a minimum of 3 months

 

[NathPowe]

Fair enough badlee. I can tell you that I won't be waiting 3 months to drink the beer mentioned in my previous post. I also enjoy the simplicity of the method I described.

We all have our own style though. Sounds like you've got some fun things going on at your place.

gometz - I have no experience using lacto b, so I can't make a valid recommendation on that one. Seems like it would be fun to mess around with.

Cheers.

 

[badlee]

NathPowe
Thanks. What is your time frame like,if I may ask?

 

[Owly055]

Our very own Mad Fermentationalist has as page on lacto cultures and lacto / yeast blends that's quite interesting. The list is quite extensive, and the descriptions make me want to delve into sours and brett yeasts. I copied several snips from the page for examples....... There is a lot of material there. The first one copied I found particularly interesting..... a lactic bacteria that produces both acid and alcohol. There are numerous yeast suppliers we don't ordinarily hear about listed...... along with some of their products, and links to their pages including one site with detailed directions and advice of capturing your own yeast cultures from the wild. The page is well worth exploring.

H.W.

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/commercial-cultures.html


WY5223-PC Lactobacillus brevis – They claim this strain is more hop tolerant than their standard Lactobacillus (WY5335). It is heterofermentative and will produce both lactic acid and alcohol.

WY3203-PC de Bom Sour Blend – A new release for summer 2014. They advertise this blend of Lactobacillus, Brettanomyces, and brewer's yeast is supposed to be capable of producing a sour beer in less than two months at 80-85°F (27-29°C). They suggest fermenting in the low 80s to favor the Lacto. They also recommend the questionable/novel technique of skipping aeration initially, but adding 4 PPM of oxygen every other day once 80% of the expected attenuation is completed.


WY5526 Brettanomyces lambicus – Big cherry pie character when young, but the fruitiness fades as the beer ages. This strain is a good candidate for a primary fermentation, or as an addition to darker beers. It produces more perceived tartness than the other Brett strains in my experience.

 

[NathPowe]

NathPowe
Thanks. What is your time frame like,if I may ask?

Last time it was about 8 weeks. So I guess not far off from the 3 months you suggested. But still, not too shabby for something with a nice lactic tartness to complement the saison vibes.

Cheers.

 

[gometz]

I actually used de bom on a shoe and it turned out great. Second generation was even better. Third generation hasn't been bottled and has about 6 different dregs in it.

 

[user 204491]

For what it's worth, I'm bottling my tart saison that I used a bit of Nelson in tomorrow. I used a combo of 3711/3724 in the primary, and then transferred to secondary with a 1/2 pound of malto and a starter I'd built up using bottle dregs from several different batches of Sante Adairius's Saison Bernice. If you can't get good bottle dregs, I'd probably try to pitch some GigaYeast Fast Souring Lacto in your secondary and see how that goes.

FYI - it's been 60 days total between primary and secondary, and I'm very happy with the results.

Link to the recipe is below. This is a partial mash recipe, but I'll be doing this one again as all grain very soon.

http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/210165/sunday-morning-saison

Cheers!

 

[tagz]

I actually used de bom on a shoe and it turned out great. Second generation was even better. Third generation hasn't been bottled and has about 6 different dregs in it.

That's some hardcore yeast if it can ferment a shoe.