Help me with a crazy idea: a (peaty?) graf to go with a cigar

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Dan_Scott

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I’m far too new to brewing to be doing this, but I can’t get it out of my head. I got into the hobby in June, have brewed a couple beers, and have mostly been making a lot of fast ale-style ciders (Kveik and saison yeasts, carbonated, most of them dry, etc). I’ve been intrigued by the concept of a graf and am going to play with normal ways of doing that soon.

But.

Ever since I discovered the existence of peated malts, I’ve been plagued by the thought of making a graf that might have come scotch-like qualities and would go nicely with a cigar. Some peat, some Hungarian oak perhaps, some…. Something; I’m not entirely sure what other malt to use, or what hops (if any) to implement – and some crisp apple flavor. Inhibiting this project is that the only smoked beer I’ve managed to get my hands on was a dark, and I haven’t managed to find any properly peaty beers to drink. Now have I ever had a graf (working on it, working on it). On top of this, I’m not even a huge peat head in scotch - Lagavulin 16 hell yes, especially with a cigar, but Laphroaig is not my jam.

Still though – my (absolutely inexperienced and lacking in knowledge) bones tell me there’s something here that should be drinkable, and might even be delicious. My goal so far with cider has been producing something tasty in a short period of time (4-8 weeks) but this I’d be willing to let age to get right. Maybe even freeze-concentrate the juice to increase the flavor and sugar, as I suspect a higher alcohol content may be needed to stand up to the additional peat/oak flavors and to make it worth drinking with a smoke.

Anyway, if anyone has any experience using peated malts they could lend me, or any ideas or suggestions in general, they would be much appreciated! And I’d be more than happy to report back on the results.
 
If you don't like peat, then why use it? I'm a massive massive fan of smoked foods, smoked drinks, and so on, but I prefer wood-smoked drinks and foods to peat-smoked. And there are far more malts that are smoked with beechwood, applewood, oak, and so on. I'd personally use that before using anything peat-smoked. For foods, my favorite is probably hickory-smoked, though I also really like oak-smoked and sakura-smoked (Japanese cherry blossom tree wood, which is pretty common here). I can enjoy peaty whiskies, but it's not something I actively want.

There are a lot of smoked beers out there starting with the most famous German rauchbier, and I'm planning on my next beer or maybe the one after that being a smoked stout. But the main thing that just struck me about your post was "On top of this, I’m not even a huge peat head in scotch - Lagavulin 16 hell yes, especially with a cigar, but Laphroaig is not my jam."

The most common kinds of smoked beers are very light-colored, but I personally prefer dark smoked beers. I do think that a smoked graf could be pretty good.
 
I like peat, just not overwhelming amounts of it, is what I was saying - so while I want to use it here, I'll have to be careful with the level.
 
I like peat, just not overwhelming amounts of it, is what I was saying - so while I want to use it here, I'll have to be careful with the level.
So, whether you use malt that was smoked by peat or wood, the principle is the same. I can't say I've ever had a peaty beer before (in fact, I don't even think I've ever seen a smoked beer that used malt that was smoked with peat, though I've seen peated malt for sale), but I've had tons of smoky beers over the years and I buy them whenever I get the chance.

If you were doing a beer, I'd say maybe 33% of the malt bill as the peat-smoked malt? But since you're making a graf, that's a bit more difficult to calculate. Do you just do 50% apple juice and halve the amounts of beer fermentables? I've made hundreds of gallons of beers and quite a few gallons of cider, but I've never made a graf, so I'm not sure whether it's just 50/50 of the respective ingredients with an ale yeast or what.

Again, personally, I like the character of beechwood, oak, applewood, and so on, but peat can have an almost band-aid-like character, so I might reduce the amount of it that's used. Hopefully someone who's actually made a beer with peat-smoked malt can jump in the thread.

EDIT:

And here's what I'm currently kind of thinking of doing for my next beer as a kind of smoked stout (not peat and not a graf, but smoky nonetheless):

Water Chemistry Adjustments (added before mash):
Half a Campden tablet
2 grams calcium chloride (dihydrate)
4 grams gypsum (calcium sulfate)
0.5 grams baking soda

Grain bill:
1.5kg of Maris Otter malt (42.9%)
1.1kg of Weyermann beech-smoked malt (31.4%)
300 grams of roasted barley (8.6%)
200 grams of flaked oats (5.7%)
200 grams of chocolate malt (5.7%)
200 grams of Caramel 60L (5.7%)

Mashed at: 67C for 60 minutes
Total Water Volume: 20 liters (no sparge, just drain bag after mash)

Other:
Servomyces - add last 10 minutes of boil
Whirlfloc - add last 5 minutes of boil

Hops:
22 grams of East Kent Goldings hops (pellet – 6.8% AA) for 60 minutes
15 grams of Fuggle hops (pellet – 5.0% AA) for 15 minutes
13 grams of East Kent Golding hops (pellet – 6.8% AA) for 5 minutes

Fermented with Safale S-04 at 16-18C for 2 weeks
Kegged, then carbonated to 2.3 CO2 levels.

Estimated results of:
SRM: 39
IBUs: 42
Original Gravity: 1.056
Final Gravity: 1.013
ABV: 5.7%
 
Last edited:
So, whether you use malt that was smoked by peat or wood, the principle is the same. I can't say I've ever had a peaty beer before (in fact, I don't even think I've ever seen a smoked beer that used malt that was smoked with peat, though I've seen peated malt for sale), but I've had tons of smoky beers over the years and I buy them whenever I get the chance.

If you were doing a beer, I'd say maybe 33% of the malt bill as the peat-smoked malt? But since you're making a graf, that's a bit more difficult to calculate. Do you just do 50% apple juice and halve the amounts of beer fermentables? I've made hundreds of gallons of beers and quite a few gallons of cider, but I've never made a graf, so I'm not sure whether it's just 50/50 of the respective ingredients with an ale yeast or what.

Again, personally, I like the character of beechwood, oak, applewood, and so on, but peat can have an almost band-aid-like character, so I might reduce the amount of it that's used. Hopefully someone who's actually made a beer with peat-smoked malt can jump in the thread.

EDIT:

And here's what I'm currently kind of thinking of doing for my next beer as a kind of smoked stout (not peat and not a graf, but smoky nonetheless):

Water Chemistry Adjustments (added before mash):
Half a Campden tablet
2 grams calcium chloride (dihydrate)
4 grams gypsum (calcium sulfate)
0.5 grams baking soda

Grain bill:
1.5kg of Maris Otter malt (42.9%)
1.1kg of Weyermann beech-smoked malt (31.4%)
300 grams of roasted barley (8.6%)
200 grams of flaked oats (5.7%)
200 grams of chocolate malt (5.7%)
200 grams of Caramel 60L (5.7%)

Mashed at: 67C for 60 minutes
Total Water Volume: 20 liters (no sparge, just drain bag after mash)

Other:
Servomyces - add last 10 minutes of boil
Whirlfloc - add last 5 minutes of boil

Hops:
22 grams of East Kent Goldings hops (pellet – 6.8% AA) for 60 minutes
15 grams of Fuggle hops (pellet – 5.0% AA) for 15 minutes
13 grams of East Kent Golding hops (pellet – 6.8% AA) for 5 minutes

Fermented with Safale S-04 at 16-18C for 2 weeks
Kegged, then carbonated to 2.3 CO2 levels.

Estimated results of:
SRM: 39
IBUs: 42
Original Gravity: 1.056
Final Gravity: 1.013
ABV: 5.7%
I just think of the apple juice as another ingredient in making a graf, subject to the complication that it can't be mixed in until after the wort cools, and the initial gravity of the juice can't truly be adjusted (1.052 for the juice I use).

I'm thinking a 2.5-3.5 gallon batch, with the liquid volume being 1/2 to 2/3 apple juice; less than that and I suspect the apple flavor will get entirely lost. The wort will likely need to be fairly high gravity - the juice by itself ferments out to around 6%, and I'm wondering if more alcohol might be a better base for the peat and the oak. If the Nottingham cider I have fermenting now lives up to its reputation, that will probably be my yeast. Could also go with S-04 or S-05; most of my ciders so far have been Kveik or Saison yeasts but I suspect those aren't right for this.

From what I can find peated malt can be far more overpowering than smoked, and based on past advice give in re beers, I'm thinking 1 oz total, or if calculated around 2% of... Total fermentables, I think? With beer it would be the wort fermentables, but I'm thinking with a graf I should include the sugar in the juice when making these calculations. Some people say up to 5% is good, but I'm worried that will be overpowering.

I'm getting some Hungarian oak cubes, so while I haven't settled on how exactly to time that addition, that will show up in the final flavor profile to some extent.

I'm really trying to figure out what the base malt should be, what if any hops to use. If used, I don't want much - one of my smoking buddies is mildly allergic, though still a beer drinker. And for this I think any noticable hop flavor would detract from what I'm trying to do.

I like rye in beer and whiskey; I could see that being an option. I've also seen Marris Otter like you are using show up in a lot of smoked beers - what do you feel that contributes, and might it be a good candidate for me?

I also see a number of adjuncts; from what I've read I wonder if some amount of caramel malt might be a good idea, maybe 60l? Though I don't want to make it too sweet. But any thoughts on what you like to use in your smoked beers and why would be appreciated!
 
So, whether you use malt that was smoked by peat or wood, the principle is the same. I can't say I've ever had a peaty beer before (in fact, I don't even think I've ever seen a smoked beer that used malt that was smoked with peat, though I've seen peated malt for sale), but I've had tons of smoky beers over the years and I buy them whenever I get the chance.

If you were doing a beer, I'd say maybe 33% of the malt bill as the peat-smoked malt? But since you're making a graf, that's a bit more difficult to calculate. Do you just do 50% apple juice and halve the amounts of beer fermentables? I've made hundreds of gallons of beers and quite a few gallons of cider, but I've never made a graf, so I'm not sure whether it's just 50/50 of the respective ingredients with an ale yeast or what.

Again, personally, I like the character of beechwood, oak, applewood, and so on, but peat can have an almost band-aid-like character, so I might reduce the amount of it that's used. Hopefully someone who's actually made a beer with peat-smoked malt can jump in the thread.

EDIT:

And here's what I'm currently kind of thinking of doing for my next beer as a kind of smoked stout (not peat and not a graf, but smoky nonetheless):

Water Chemistry Adjustments (added before mash):
Half a Campden tablet
2 grams calcium chloride (dihydrate)
4 grams gypsum (calcium sulfate)
0.5 grams baking soda

Grain bill:
1.5kg of Maris Otter malt (42.9%)
1.1kg of Weyermann beech-smoked malt (31.4%)
300 grams of roasted barley (8.6%)
200 grams of flaked oats (5.7%)
200 grams of chocolate malt (5.7%)
200 grams of Caramel 60L (5.7%)

Mashed at: 67C for 60 minutes
Total Water Volume: 20 liters (no sparge, just drain bag after mash)

Other:
Servomyces - add last 10 minutes of boil
Whirlfloc - add last 5 minutes of boil

Hops:
22 grams of East Kent Goldings hops (pellet – 6.8% AA) for 60 minutes
15 grams of Fuggle hops (pellet – 5.0% AA) for 15 minutes
13 grams of East Kent Golding hops (pellet – 6.8% AA) for 5 minutes

Fermented with Safale S-04 at 16-18C for 2 weeks
Kegged, then carbonated to 2.3 CO2 levels.

Estimated results of:
SRM: 39
IBUs: 42
Original Gravity: 1.056
Final Gravity: 1.013
ABV: 5.7%
I'd up the smoke in your recipe. I'm not sure where you live, but even in a neighbouring country Weyermann's smoked malt is of lacking quality at the moment. Especially with a dark beer I'd go to around 50%. You have quite a bit of roast that competes for flavour and late hops as well. I'd drop the hops and maybe consider pale chocolate, chocolate rye/wheat or even CS1/2 over regular chocolate malt. That gives the smoke a bit more room and less competing flavours, but you most certainly can still go for contrasting flavours if you wish.

That said, even for the lightest of peat smoked malt 33% is probably a lot, especially in something as delicate as a graf.

I haven't done one in a while and never made a smoked one, but for smoked braggot 10-15% smoked malt gives a subtle hint of smoke (this was when the quality was still better, so you might need to go to the upper end). For peat I'd agree with 5% max with medium or heavy versions. I find it hard to give good advice as this is very new to me and I don't use peat often, so I'd do a small test and start there. I recently did a small imperial stout test with 5% heavy peated malt and I needed a lot more, but there was much more going on there. Without roast and sweetness the peat will be more on the forefront. Also consider what gravity you are aiming for and maybe think in absolute numbers. How many mg peat phenolics do you actually want in there, because 5% of a small grain bill is way less smoke than 5% of a big one. Of course bigger means more flavour, but peat is tricky in that regard. Higher OG doesn't necessarily compensate for the extra phenolics.
You're right about yeast, I'd go neutral as well. Kveik could work in a pinch, but don't go for anything phenolic.
I'd still add hops, but just enough to get a calculated 10-20 IBU after diluting with juice. In your case I'd stick to the lower end. Low alpha hops so you still get some flavour from the hop material even though it's only for bittering, but that's my preference.
MO is a fine base I think, but Vienna could work as well. Same for pilsner if you want a less noticeable malt profile and some apparent sweetness. GP sits somewhere between MO and pilsner. Crystal malts can also help you get a bit of sweetness in there, and rye could work for body and an attempt at head retention.
However I'd start simple and work up from there. Base malt, peat, juice and a tiny amount of hops. This is a very tough balancing act, so don't make it too hard by adding too many variables. You mentioned oak as well, so you could even soak your oak in alcohol and add a bit to your glass just to see if you like it without gambling an entire batch. I'm not a huge fan of wood in cider myself usually.
 
I'd up the smoke in your recipe. I'm not sure where you live, but even in a neighbouring country Weyermann's smoked malt is of lacking quality at the moment. Especially with a dark beer I'd go to around 50%. You have quite a bit of roast that competes for flavour and late hops as well. I'd drop the hops and maybe consider pale chocolate, chocolate rye/wheat or even CS1/2 over regular chocolate malt. That gives the smoke a bit more room and less competing flavours, but you most certainly can still go for contrasting flavours if you wish.
Appreciate the feedback and I definitely agree that I was playing it a bit too safe with just 31% smoked malt. Weyermann's smoked malt and sometimes Ireks's are the only ones I have available here. Personally, I REALLY REALLY REALLY like super smoky foods and I typically buy smoked nuts and so on by finding negative reviews that say they're "too smoky" because other people's "too smoky" is just right for me. That said, my wife will also be drinking this, and as much as I absolutely loved Yeasty Boys xeRRex (the even more smokier version of Rex Attitude and which, come to think of it, was brewed with peat-smoked malt), which is by far the most smoky beer I have ever had in my life, I don't think I'd want 11-14 liters of it. Still, it seems that most people agree that Weyermann's beech-smoked malt is a lot less smoky than a lot of other smoked malts, so I've decided to take your advice to heart and massively up the smoked malt by completely getting rid of the Maris Otter altogether.

Grain bill:
2.5kg of Weyermann beech-smoked malt (75.8%)
250 grams of Carafa Special II (7.5%)
200 grams of roasted barley (6%)
200 grams of flaked oats (6%)
200 grams of Caramel 60L (6%)

Hops:
20 grams of East Kent Goldings hops (pellet – 6.8% AA) for 60 minutes
20 grams of Fuggle hops (pellet – 5.0% AA) for 15 minutes

Fermented with Safale S-04 at 16-18C for 2 weeks
Kegged, then carbonated to 2.3 CO2 levels.

Estimated results of:
SRM: 39
IBUs: 41
Original Gravity: 1.052
Final Gravity: 1.012
ABV: 5.2%
 
Last edited:
I am also somewhat of a smoke-head. I find that using Weyermann beech-smoked (rauchmalz) as the base grain, with only drubs and drabs of other things (mostly Munich, some chocolate rye) gives a smoky but still balanced and drinkable beer.

For the graf, I’d recommend a Doppelbock grist (lots of Munich, in particular) for the beer half, then going 1:1 with cider after cooling the wort. I did mine with no kettle hops, but a significant dry hop with Saaz. I also backsweetened with FCAJ.

I’d make a good graf first, then spike the finished beer with some Scotch to see if you like the peat in there. If you do, add that 5% or peat-smoked to the next batch.
 
This sounds like a great idea! Peated malts could add a nice smoky flavor to the graf. I’d suggest starting with a small amount of peated malt and using a light base malt, like pilsner, to balance it. For hops, something subtle like Fuggle could work if you want to add some.

Aging and freeze concentrating the juice sounds like a good plan to help the flavors develop. Can’t wait to hear how it turns out!
 
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