A new way to discuss Fermentation and Yeast

[MachineShopBrewing]

Everyone,

I just wanted to follow up on some of the discussions that have happened in the last couple days with a more comprehensive look at what this fermentation forum is really about and the larger discussion forum in general. I have been posting and reading this forum for the last year or so and I have seen a lot of things that really concern me and I think we can do a better job as a group to foster more discussion and learning. A lot of posts in the fermentation and yeast section of this forum tend to be newer brewers who don't have much experience with yeast handling and fermentation. Most of the questions tend to revolve around worries about fermentation going smoothly, when to rack, when is fermentation done, my airlock is not bubbling, my airlock is still bubbling, and topics like this. I have seen a lot of posts that tend to just tell the new brewer to sit back, be patient, and just leave it alone for a couple weeks. While most people do need to exercise a little patience, we should also be encouraging people to make these kind of observations. I think we can all learn something at times, and at the very least, help the person with the question understand what is going on.

What I propose is that no matter what the question, we should be helping the person understand what is going on. If someone posts a question it is because they want to learn. If someone says that it has been 3 days and they see no action in their airlock, we shouldn't be telling them to just "RDWHAHB" and let it set for a couple weeks. We should be asking them about how much and what yeast they pitched, the OG, did they oxygenate, what temp are they fermenting at, and questions like this to foster discussion and help the new brewer learn about proper fermentation techniques. I have seen the many posts by people bashing people for using their airlock as a fermentation gauge. It is true that an airlock is not a reliable fermentation gauge, but it can be a first line of defense in noticing something may be wrong. I can tell these people one thing, if I noticed that my airlock was not bubbling when I expected it to, it would cause me to do a little investigating as to why it isn't and if I have fermentation. I have the frame of reference that allows me to figure out what is going on in a situation like this. Most new brewers do not have this to fall back on and turn to the forums for help. We should be encouraging these people and acknowledging that they are being observant and that is a good thing. The only way for new brewers to get better is to learn and observe what is going on. That way they build the frame of reference that they can fall back upon for future brews.




To brewers who may be new and are asking a question regarding what is happening in their fermentation, please post the following information for us to better help you out:


1. OG of the beer
2. What yeast did you pitch?
3. How much yeast did you pitch?
4. Did you make a starter? If so, how big and was it stir-plated?
5. Did you add oxygen and if so, how?
6. How long has the beer been in the fermentor?
7. Have you taken a hydro reading, and if so, what was the reading?
8. Did you rehydrate the dry yeast?
9. What type of vessel are you fermenting in?
10. What observations have you made by looking in the fermentation vessel?
11. What temp are you fermenting at and is it controlled?


In summary, lets all try to help people make the best beer possible. Sure, you can make beer by just letting it sit and letting the yeast work, but I would rather make sure that I am doing everything that I can to produce an environment that is best for the beer and the yeast. That is what makes the best beer. I think this is what we should be trying to share with new and inexperienced brewers, not telling them to just RDWHAHB.


Like I said in another post, lets stop RDWHAHB and start RADAKAB(Relax And Drink A Kick Ass Brew)

 

[theredben]

The "problem" you describe is not unique to this forum. Internet hobby forums in general have an issue with newcomers deciding to just ask a question that has been answered numerous times instead of doing a little research on theiir own. That is fine, since there is a beginner forum for that kind of stuff. Many of us routinely pop in there to reassure people with simple question since that is the appropriate forum.

I agree with your "11 points to consider" when asking a question, and maybe one of the mods could post something to that extent as a sticky?

Edit: Seems like they could replace the HBT Giveaway sticky with these principles, I think 3 hours was about 5 weeks ago now!

 

[Jrome]

1

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

The "problem" you describe is not unique to this forum. Internet hobby forums in general have an issue with newcomers deciding to just ask a question that has been answered numerous times instead of doing a little research on theiir own. That is fine, since there is a beginner forum for that kind of stuff. Many of us routinely pop in there to reassure people with simple question since that is the appropriate forum.

While this is true, not everyone has the fortitude or the time to do the research that some of us do. Why not just help them on the path to making the best beer possible? Also, everyones questions and issues are unique. Someone might have an experience to share that we can all learn from whether they are fermenting their first batch or 100th batch. I just hate to see the posts telling them to "just let it be for a couple weeks and RDWHAHB." I would rather they be engaged in the process and observe what is going on. If by discussing what they are seeing for the first time helps them to be a better brewer, then we should be helping them out rather than discouraging them sharing their experiences.

 

[MalFet]

With a genuine respect for your wanting to make this a better place, I think you are straw-manning the "RDWHAHB" response. It's a cheesy acronym and the phrasing can sometimes be a bit saccharine for my tastes, but I do believe that the sentiment is generally correct. It doesn't mean, "Ignore everything that is around you and just have faith in the Beer-Jesus." That would be, of course, a terrible way to approach things. But, I don't think that is the attitude behind RDWHAHB.

The phrase was first put forward by Charlie Papazian, who started homebrewing at a time when most people would never have dreamed that such a thing was possible. Even now, there are relatively few things that most people still know how to make. We are alienated from our stuff, and beer production is a perfect example an arcane lore that was common knowledge just a few generations ago. That's an awful shame, and one of the great magicks of homebrew is that it allows people to dismantle their world. A lot of homebrewers also end up roasting their own coffee, building their own electronics, making their own sausages, welding their own metal, digging their own cellars, and so on. Once the first curtain gets pulled back and the arcane lore gets revealed as simple kitchen chemistry, everything else starts seeming accessible. That is the best thing there is.

The flip side to this is the sheer scope of information that is now available. It is stunning and fabulous how much there is to learn just by browsing these boards alone. But, without the perspective of experience, it is very difficult to keep a sense of scale and perspective. There are sophisticated discussions going on here about water chemistry, yeast population dynamics, grain enzyme biology, metallurgy, and just about any other topic you can imagine. We hang out and argue about the best ways to rebuild yeast trehalose reserves, but new brewers are here to ask if you add the yeast before or after the boil. It's hard to know what to worry about when you don't understand any of it. The best answer in most of these circumstances is not to worry at all.

I can imagine the kinds of threads you are responding to, but there is another kind of thread that is just as bad. Some new brewer comes on worried that his beer eight days into fermentation tastes "weird" and immediately people start speculating about extracted tannins, chemical leaching, yeast stress, residual alkalinity, and galvonic reactions. The reality is, a new brewer has no idea what "normal" tastes like and thus has no way of assessing what "weird" tastes like. Overly complex speculations don't help anybody. Reassurances, on the other hand, will get that person started on the thing that will actually help them: their second batch.

You say that we should help people make the best beer possible, rather than telling them to leave their beer alone. Overwhelmingly, telling people to leave their beer alone is helping them to make the best beer possible. This isn't an attempt to get them to stop asking questions. It is exactly the reassurance that they are looking for. In a couple of weeks, they will taste their first beer, and they will think it is the greatest thing they have ever drunk. Then they will come back, gradually, with ever more sophisticated questions.

All eleven of the questions you list here are subordinate to #7: "Have you taken a hydro reading, and if so, what was the reading?". Everything else, for a new brewer, is a distraction. There is no doubt that this is a simplification, but it is a good one. I've got $2000 of yeast lab equipment and several years of reading behind me that help me to understand the nuances of pitching rates, yeast strains, fermentor types, population growth curves, and the like. For a new brewer, none of this stuff is important.

95% of these threads go the same way: somebody is worried about bubbles when there shouldn't be any or none when there should; an experience brewer says "it's fine, take a hydro reading"; the worried new brewer comes back to report that everything's spot on, and the sample tasted great. Sometimes people immediately come back with further questions, and that's always lovely; sometimes they've already maxed out their capacity for new information at this point, and that's fine too. At this stage, the most important thing is to make beer...any beer. Once the mechanics stop being scary, then they will start asking the questions that will lead to the kick ass brew.

 

[Pappers_]

You say that we should help people make the best beer possible, rather than telling them to leave their beer alone. Overwhelmingly, telling people to leave their beer alone is helping them to make the best beer possible. This isn't an attempt to get them to stop asking questions. It is exactly the reassurance that they are looking for. In a couple of weeks, they will taste their first beer, and they will think it is the greatest thing they have ever drunk. Then they will come back, gradually, with ever more sophisticated questions.

+1 I strongly agree that this is often the very best advice for a new brewer.

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

I understand the points stated in the above posts. I just believe that most new brewers who post a fermentation question have probably underpitched their yeast and don't have any concept of what temp to ferment at. Sure we can reassure them that they will be making beer, but shouldn't we also be asking these simple questions to them to help them move towards making better beer. Like I said before, I have seen a lot of threads end without the person learning anything other than their airlock is not a fermentation gauge. When someone post a question like "Its been 4 days and I don't see any activity in my airlock", sure we should be asking them to take a hydro reading, but we should also ask them how much and what kind of yeast they pitched to help them better understand why it might be taking longer for fermentation to take off. Most likely they have grossly underpitched. There are people who tend to give them a snotty ass remark implying how stupid they are for using their airlock and not their hydrometer. I don't believe this is the atmosphere we as a HB community want to set to new people coming into the hobby. We don't have to get into all the details of yeast growth and such, as this would be overwhelming to someone new, but we should at least be guiding them towards pitching the correct amount of yeast. Also, by asking them a few simple questions, it teaches the new brewer what questions they should be asking themselves to diagnose and reassure themselves in the future.

 

[millsware]

I agree in that learning happens much faster in context. The first time I read through How To Brew, about 80% went way over my head. Although in almost all of these threads somebody usually steps up and gives a good answer, or digs a little deeper to help.

I know I've learned a ton in the past few months. Thanks HBT.

 

[Pappers_]

There are people who tend to give them a snotty ass remark implying how stupid they are for using their airlock and not their hydrometer.

This is the crux of your complaint, I think. Yes, people shouldn't be snarky.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

In most cases, you can tell a new brewer to RDWHAHB until you're blue in the face but they are not going to relax, they are going to worry, and they often don't have any homebrew. And they are going to keep monitoring that fermenter/airlock and they are going to taste green/young beer. 'Handing off' the beer making process to fungi will always cause a little worrying/not relaxing for new brewers. Always has been and always will be.

And the thing is, almost every one of us worried/didn't relax about our first fermentation, watched an airlock, and tasted green/young beer. So it comes off as condescending to tell them to not do the things EVERY new brewer does and something everybody knows you did.

I am a huge 'don't futz with your beer' type brewer (for example, I never take hydro readings during fermentation because I see no point in it)...but I also to this day still use an airlock bubbling (or not) as useable information and taste my beer at every step along the way.

 

[sagnew440]

I personally researched homebrewing for about a year before I even brewed my first extract batch (only ended up brewing two before i went all grain). Don't get me wrong I still had questions, but once you know what to worry about and what not to it makes brewing a whole lot easier/less stressful. You wouldn't want to go to school and take a test on something that you know nothing about without studing for it. That is how I aproached brewing.

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

I am a huge 'don't futz with your beer' type brewer (for example, I never take hydro readings during fermentation because I see no point in it)

I am the same way. I never take a reading until I am going to rack it to the keg. But, that is because we have the confidence that we have pitched enough yeast and done everything else correctly that we no longer have to worry about our fermentations.

but I also to this day still use an airlock bubbling (or not) as useable information and taste my beer at every step along the way.

I agree whole heartedly with this statement. The next morning after a brew day I am always popping open my fermentation fridge to make sure I see airlock action. If I do, then I know everything should be good and I leave it alone. If after a couple days, I didn't see anything going on, I would start to diagnose why. It could be the airlock was dry, could be clogged, could be a leak in my bucket, or it could be fermentation related. But because you and I have a handle on the rest of the fermentation processes, this allows us to make these judgments. That is why I get mad when I see the "Your airlock is not a fermentation gauge" posts. It very much can be a first line indicator of what is going on inside, esp for those of us who use buckets to ferment in.

My overall point with this thread is that most new brewers are brewing kit beer. So the recipe and hot side is 90% taken care of for them and they have little to worry about in that respect. Learning proper fermentation is the number one process that is going to help them improve their beer at this point. When a new brewer brews that second or third batch and has learned the very simple concepts of pitching enough yeast and trying to control fermentation temp, that is going to result in better beer and in turn will encourage them to keep brewing and learning more. These concepts are not rocket surgery, they are very simple and easy to do. We should do a better job working with a new brewer to understand these things even if it is the 1,000th time we have answered the same question. Everyone's circumstances are different.

 

[Airborneguy]

I agree that anyone who does take the time to answer a question shouldn't be a smart-a** about it, but the OP seems to think that we have some sort of responsibility to new brewers.

Now don't get me wrong, I answer the questions that draw my attention when I have time to do it, but this is an internet forum. Just because some new guy comes on and asks a question doesn't mean that: 1. They are owed an answer, 2. Members must answer it to some accepted level.

It's been said a million times before, the search is the best way to get an answer. Most of the very beginner questions are not unique, and so the search is the best way to get a quick answer. I for one only really read and get involved with unique questions, especially ones where I can tell by the way the poster wrote it that he/she is halfway intelligent and worth my time to give an answer.

 

[JeffB]

Agreed, if one is tired of hearing the question asked over and over, move the F on, dont belittle somebody asking for help. Theres more to life then this forum and our hobby, no need to make someone feel like a turd because it is interrupting ones internet forum addiction/life/superiority complex.

 

[JeffB]

"It's been said a million times before, the search is the best way to get an answer"

By that logic, all has been answered, the data does not change and there is no reason to even have a forum or meaningful conversation between those who wish to discuss, just put it in a FAQ.

I dont buy it, no, no one is owed an answer but by that logic, no one deserves the question to begin with.

 

[JonK331]

Everyone,

I just wanted to follow up on some of the discussions that have happened in the last couple days with a more comprehensive look at what this fermentation forum is really about and the larger discussion forum in general. I have been posting and reading this forum for the last year or so and I have seen a lot of things that really concern me and I think we can do a better job as a group to foster more discussion and learning. A lot of posts in the fermentation and yeast section of this forum tend to be newer brewers who don't have much experience with yeast handling and fermentation. Most of the questions tend to revolve around worries about fermentation going smoothly, when to rack, when is fermentation done, my airlock is not bubbling, my airlock is still bubbling, and topics like this. I have seen a lot of posts that tend to just tell the new brewer to sit back, be patient, and just leave it alone for a couple weeks. While most people do need to exercise a little patience, we should also be encouraging people to make these kind of observations. I think we can all learn something at times, and at the very least, help the person with the question understand what is going on.

What I propose is that no matter what the question, we should be helping the person understand what is going on. If someone posts a question it is because they want to learn. If someone says that it has been 3 days and they see no action in their airlock, we shouldn't be telling them to just "RDWHAHB" and let it set for a couple weeks. We should be asking them about how much and what yeast they pitched, the OG, did they oxygenate, what temp are they fermenting at, and questions like this to foster discussion and help the new brewer learn about proper fermentation techniques. I have seen the many posts by people bashing people for using their airlock as a fermentation gauge. It is true that an airlock is not a reliable fermentation gauge, but it can be a first line of defense in noticing something may be wrong. I can tell these people one thing, if I noticed that my airlock was not bubbling when I expected it to, it would cause me to do a little investigating as to why it isn't and if I have fermentation. I have the frame of reference that allows me to figure out what is going on in a situation like this. Most new brewers do not have this to fall back on and turn to the forums for help. We should be encouraging these people and acknowledging that they are being observant and that is a good thing. The only way for new brewers to get better is to learn and observe what is going on. That way they build the frame of reference that they can fall back upon for future brews.

To brewers who may be new and are asking a question regarding what is happening in their fermentation, please post the following information for us to better help you out:


1. OG of the beer
2. What yeast did you pitch?
3. How much yeast did you pitch?
4. Did you make a starter? If so, how big and was it stir-plated?
5. Did you add oxygen and if so, how?
6. How long has the beer been in the fermentor?
7. Have you taken a hydro reading, and if so, what was the reading?
8. Did you rehydrate the dry yeast?
9. What type of vessel are you fermenting in?
10. What observations have you made by looking in the fermentation vessel?
11. What temp are you fermenting at and is it controlled?

In summary, lets all try to help people make the best beer possible. Sure, you can make beer by just letting it sit and letting the yeast work, but I would rather make sure that I am doing everything that I can to produce an environment that is best for the beer and the yeast. That is what makes the best beer. I think this is what we should be trying to share with new and inexperienced brewers, not telling them to just RDWHAHB.

Like I said in another post, lets stop RDWHAHB and start RADAKAB(Relax And Drink A Kick Ass Brew)

Totally dude but have you paid your $25 yet? That is a whole lotta tellin folks what to do for someone who hasn't even paid their dues.

 

[PVH]

There's nothing wrong with this approach, but why present it as a way to fix something that's not even broken? If you want to spend more time teaching novice brewers about fermentation, just post the 11 questions you listed whenever you see fit. The RDWHAHB guys can continue to simply answer the particular question posed by the novice brewer, and those who want to offer more information can do so. Isn't this what is happening now, though?

 

[Airborneguy]

By that logic, all has been answered, the data does not change and there is no reason to even have a forum or meaningful conversation between those who wish to discuss, just put it in a FAQ.

The data might change slightly (time, temp, pitch rate, etc), but the main thing doesn't: the new brewer.

I mean, what's the most common question? "There's no bubbles! What do I do?"

Are we supposed to refer to the OP's 11 point questionnaire to answer this every time? That's ridiculous. The best answer in this case is RDWHAHB and read around the forum and some books. EDIT: And check the seal on your lid...

I also am of the opinion that a very high percentage of the people who sign on here - especially early in the year - are going to brew a few batches and then quit, so I don't usually bother with the beginner questions because of this. When people start asking about different mash temps and whether a secondary is necessary, that's when you know that they are sticking around and a good answer might actually help them. IMO anyway.

 

[Airborneguy]

PS, I don't see the OP on either of these recent threads answering anything, so maybe this whole discussion is pointless:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/no-clue-what-im-talking-about-225937/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/fermentation-temeprature-ale-225871/

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

I mean, what's the most common question? "There's no bubbles! What do I do?"

Are we supposed to refer to the OP's 11 point questionnaire to answer this every time? That's ridiculous. The best answer in this case is RDWHAHB and read around the forum and some books. EDIT: And check the seal on your lid...

I also am of the opinion that a very high percentage of the people who sign on here - especially early in the year - are going to brew a few batches and then quit, so I don't usually bother with the beginner questions because of this. When people start asking about different mash temps and whether a secondary is necessary, that's when you know that they are sticking around and a good answer might actually help them. IMO anyway.

No one is forcing you to do anything. Not sure what you have against new brewers, but it really shows in your writing that you obviously feel intellectually superior to them and that they don't deserve you to share your superior intellect with them. I'm not trying to tell people what questions they have to answer or not answer. You are right, most new brewer questions can be found by searching the forum, so why bother asking them in the first place, right? I see it completely different. These people may just be following the instructions included with their kit, which we all know are as basic as they can make them. If you were to just follow the instructions included with the kit and yeast pack, you would never make the best beer. That is the frame of reference a new brewer comes into the hobby with. The only thing they know is what is says on the instruction sheet. You can make the decision to just tell them to search the forum or tell them to just let it be. That's your choice. I'm saying why not address each person specifically while you have them as a captive audience? I am mainly talking specific to the fermentation and yeast forum which is the one I frequent most other than brew science.

Look at the brew science forum. Almost every post is "help me with my water report." Sure, they could do hours/days/weeks of research to figure it out, but guys like AJ take the time to help everyone with their questions no matter how repetitive they are. I know how to brew with the water that I use, but I am far from a water scientist. I don't jump in and tell people to just quit worrying about their water because it may be too complicated. They have come to this forum not only because they have a question, but also to interact and talk brewing with other brewers. Lots of the people who post on here may not have anybody near them who brews and turn to the forum for interaction and chat. For a new brewer they are not talking about mash temps and whether to secondary because they have not gotten that far yet, and with the attitude that you have shown, you seem to give a $#@* if they do or not. Its like "talk to me when you get to all-grain" or something.

 

[sjbeerman]

In most cases, you can tell a new brewer to RDWHAHB until you're blue in the face but they are not going to relax, they are going to worry, and they often don't have any homebrew. And they are going to keep monitoring that fermenter/airlock and they are going to taste green/young beer. 'Handing off' the beer making process to fungi will always cause a little worrying/not relaxing for new brewers. Always has been and always will be.

And the thing is, almost every one of us worried/didn't relax about our first fermentation, watched an airlock, and tasted green/young beer. So it comes off as condescending to tell them to not do the things EVERY new brewer does and something everybody knows you did.

I am a huge 'don't futz with your beer' type brewer (for example, I never take hydro readings during fermentation because I see no point in it)...but I also to this day still use an airlock bubbling (or not) as useable information and taste my beer at every step along the way.

I still worry til this day even though I know I did everything I could. I just don't want to see something be thrown down the drain, literally, after I spent hours making it. This has actually happened on a couple occasions. It doesn't mean I try to fix something that isn't broke, I just worry. It's my nature..So, I don't listen to RDWHAHB...then I take a hydro reading and see everything's ok..

I think "Brew Like a Monk" said it best when he said there are three things that make a good brewer.."Experience, knowledge, and creativity.." Unfortunately, too many try to be creative without the experience or the knowledge.

 

[Airborneguy]

First, unlike yourself, I'm not telling anyone else what THEY should do. As I said before, if someone is so inclined to answer certain questions, that's great. But I'm not.

Not sure what you have against new brewers, but it really shows in your writing that you obviously feel intellectually superior to them and that they don't deserve you to share your superior intellect with them.

Obviously is a strong word when you're using it to describe something you are reaching for. I didn't imply superiority, I was discussing experience, which we all started with none of. BUT, very beginner brewers tend to ask the same questions, and many of them would not even understand the questions you propose asking them to give them a "proper" answer. As someone else mentioned, when the brewer's frame of reference is ZERO, giving them an answer with ten years of experience behind it is going WAY over their head. I agree with and contend that most basic questions are best answered by telling the brewer to relax, and continue reading on the whole experience of brewing.

These people may just be following the instructions included with their kit, which we all know are as basic as they can make them.

Which is exactly what they should be doing. Just because you know Shakespeare doesn't mean you can explain it to your child; they have to learn some basics first. Your "proposal" was basically for us to bombard new brewers with info they don't need.

If you were to just follow the instructions included with the kit and yeast pack, you would never make the best beer.

Did you make the "best beer" on your first few batches? This is an unrealistic goal for almost anyone.

I'm saying why not address each person specifically while you have them as a captive audience?

Captive audience? Unless you are John Palmer or Ray Daniels, you aren't going to "teach" these new brewers anything hugely important. What is your background anyway? I went looking for your "answers" and found exactly ZERO. What makes you the person with the background to start this conversation at all?

Almost every post is "help me with my water report."

"Help me with my water report" is not a beginner question.

For a new brewer they are not talking about mash temps and whether to secondary because they have not gotten that far yet,

...or water reports... (and by the way, I was specifically addressing that those are not absolute beginner questions)

...and with the attitude that you have shown, you seem to give a $#@* if they do or not. Its like "talk to me when you get to all-grain" or something.

I won't deny that, because it is pretty much how I feel. You are on an internet forum that has over 50k members. How many are regular posters/brewers? Honestly, I am not interested in answering a million beginner questions for posters who will brew 1-2 batches and then throw their equipment on eBay or Craigslist. Come to me when you are brewing twice a month and upgrading your system because this is actually your hobby. I'll dedicate some time to people who dedicate time to the hobby. Not to people who got a Mr. Beer for Christmas, just got around to opening it in February, and want beer in 3 days.

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

I didn't imply superiority, I was discussing experience, which we all started with none of. BUT, very beginner brewers tend to ask the same questions, and many of them would not even understand the questions you propose asking them to give them a "proper" answer. As someone else mentioned, when the brewer's frame of reference is ZERO, giving them an answer with ten years of experience behind it is going WAY over their head.

I don't think the concept of pitching the proper amount of yeast is really rocket science. That's about as basic as it gets. Most people don't pitch the proper amount of yeast and then come on the forum wondering why their airlock is not bubbling after 3 days. Rather than just telling them to quit worrying about it, let's let them know WHY.

Captive audience? Unless you are John Palmer or Ray Daniels, you aren't going to "teach" these new brewers anything hugely important. What is your background anyway? I went looking for your "answers" and found exactly ZERO. What makes you the person with the background to start this conversation at all?

I thought we are all on this forum to learn from each other. Hmm, I guess I was wrong.

"Help me with my water report" is not a beginner question.

You have obviously not spent much time in the brew science forum.

I won't deny that, because it is pretty much how I feel. You are on an internet forum that has over 50k members. How many are regular posters/brewers? Honestly, I am not interested in answering a million beginner questions for posters who will brew 1-2 batches and then throw their equipment on eBay or Craigslist. Come to me when you are brewing twice a month and upgrading your system because this is actually your hobby. I'll dedicate some time to people who dedicate time to the hobby. Not to people who got a Mr. Beer for Christmas, just got around to opening it in February, and want beer in 3 days.

I don't think I would have brewed my second batch if I would have run into someone like you looking for help. Thanks to your welcoming personality I'm sure many people have made that leap right to putting their stuff on ebay. You obviously have nothing to offer to this conversation. You already said that you don't answer beginner questions. I'm not really sure what you are trying to accomplish here anyway by arguing. I'm talking about the people who DO post on beginners fermentation threads and basically treat them as stupid because they don't know what they don't know. So you can just take your happy @$$ and butt out, you have nothing positive to offer this conversation.

 

[Airborneguy]

So you can just take your happy @$$ and butt out, you have nothing positive to offer this conversation.

You're going to have to start your own forum to make demands like that stick.

The reason I am posting here is because YOU created this thread to berate the whole forum about something you decided was deficient:

Everyone,

I just wanted to follow up on some of the discussions that have happened in the last couple days with a more comprehensive look at what this fermentation forum is really about and the larger discussion forum in general.

I offered the opposing view: use the search engine and read up on brewing before expecting an answer to questions that get asked 50 times a day.

I don't think I would have brewed my second batch if I would have run into someone like you looking for help.

If you, or anyone else's commitment to this hobby is predicated on the answers you get on a forum, then the problem is yours and no one else's. I don't see how it is anyone else's responsibility to ensure that someone continues in a hobby that is intended to be fun and rewarding. You do that if you want, or you don't. Not my concern.

You obviously have nothing to offer to this conversation.

I'm still waiting to hear what YOU have to offer this conversation or this board. You're calling other people out for not answering questions, but it seems like you don't do so yourself. It seems more like you are mad because YOUR questions aren't being answered. What service do you provide to this board that qualifies you to tell others what they should be doing?

We already know you don't support it financially, so what exactly do you have to offer before you go asking for something from others?

 

[MalFet]

There's nothing wrong with this approach, but why present it as a way to fix something that's not even broken? If you want to spend more time teaching novice brewers about fermentation, just post the 11 questions you listed whenever you see fit. The RDWHAHB guys can continue to simply answer the particular question posed by the novice brewer, and those who want to offer more information can do so. Isn't this what is happening now, though?

Extra special +1.

There are people who tend to give them a snotty ass remark implying how stupid they are for using their airlock and not their hydrometer.

Being rude is, of course, inappropriate. But, if you are suggesting that taking a "keep it simple" approach with new brewers is snotty, then I resent that. Some people answer the question at hand and don't offer unsolicited advice. Some people want to teach good technique. A new brewer is free to engage with whichever response resonates best. Sounds like a pretty ideal system.

 

[PVH]

Extra special +1.

Aww, now I feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

And yeah, the system seems to function well as-is. We have all sorts of folks, some who offer more unsolicited advice than others. Since we often don't know what exactly the person posting is looking for from the forum, this works out great. The person can get whatever level of help he needs.

 

[JonK331]

As someone who answers a lot of beginner questions, I don't really appreciate being told how to do it by someone who isn't even a paying member. If you want to answer questions in a particular way, feel free to do so but I'm not here to follow anyone else's rules but the moderators. I realize you are getting attacked now but people really don't like to be told what to do in an otherwise free environment. I really don't see the problem anyway, if someone says rdwhahb it doesn't mean that there will not be another more valuable answer. Just try not to be that controlling kid on the playground who trys to dictate play.

 

[PVH]

As someone who answers a lot of beginner questions, I don't really appreciate being told how to do it by someone who isn't even a paying member. If you want to answer questions in a particular way, feel free to do so but I'm not here to follow anyone else's rules but the moderators. I realize you are getting attacked now but people really don't like to be told what to do in an otherwise free environment. I really don't see the problem anyway, if someone says rdwhmb it doesn't mean that there will not be another more valuable answer. Just try not to be that controlling kid on the playground who trys to dictate play.

Relax, don't worry, have more beer?

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

Being rude is, of course, inappropriate. But, if you are suggesting that taking a "keep it simple" approach with new brewers is snotty, then I resent that. Some people answer the question at hand and don't offer unsolicited advice. Some people want to teach good technique. A new brewer is free to engage with whichever response resonates best. Sounds like a pretty ideal system.

This thread https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/n...imary-still-bubbling-once-every-5-sec-225477/ is a perfect example of what I am talking about and was really the spark for my thread.

OP quote:

I did a search and couldn't find my exact scenario. This is the first time this happened to me so I am a little unsure as to what to do.

I know not to go off of the bubbles but I usually check gravity when the bubbles slow to one every 60 seconds or longer which usually only takes a week.

Then the OP got the famous "Your airlock is not a fermentation gauge" post. So this person must not have even read the OP's full post and got fixated on "airlock" and "bubbles". MalFet- you of all people should agree with me as look at what that thread went on to be and how many of the OP's questions got answered when you engaged in some conversation outside of "your airlock is not a fermentation gauge and just leave your beer alone." That thread could have very easily died with the OP saying something like " Yeah, I guess I need to work on my patience" like so many do, and none of that other information would have ever been exchanged. If we followed Airborne's philosophy, we should have just ignored the OP's question and let them sell their equipment on ebay because no one would help them get started.

I don't see how it is anyone else's responsibility to ensure that someone continues in a hobby that is intended to be fun and rewarding. You do that if you want, or you don't. Not my concern.

Airborne, you truly are an ambassador for homebrewers everywhere. I guess the AHA and these forums should just go away as, according to you, its none of their concern. More brewers = more brewing products, more information shared, and best yet it equals More Beer!

I'm still waiting to hear what YOU have to offer this conversation or this board. You're calling other people out for not answering questions, but it seems like you don't do so yourself. It seems more like you are mad because YOUR questions aren't being answered. What service do you provide to this board that qualifies you to tell others what they should be doing?

Huh? Not sure where you get your facts. I post as I have time. I work for a living and have a family. Sorry that I can't commit more hours in my day to build my post count up more so people will think I am more important than them. I spend part of my available time reading and researching and part of it chatting on the forum. I'm still not sure why you are so pissed off. You have already stated that you don't engage in threads with new brewer questions. This thread has nothing to do with your thoughts. You are free to do whatever you want and no one is telling you to do otherwise.

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

As someone who answers a lot of beginner questions, I don't really appreciate being told how to do it by someone who isn't even a paying member. If you want to answer questions in a particular way, feel free to do so but I'm not here to follow anyone else's rules but the moderators. I realize you are getting attacked now but people really don't like to be told what to do in an otherwise free environment. I really don't see the problem anyway, if someone says rdwhahb it doesn't mean that there will not be another more valuable answer. Just try not to be that controlling kid on the playground who trys to dictate play.

I'm not trying to tell anyone or force anyone to do anything they don't want to do. I only started this thread to have the discussion that we are now having. I didn't feel that it was appropriate to have this discussion within the previously stated thread. I think we can do a better job sharing information with new brewers. Most of these people don't know what they don't know and wouldn't know the correct questions to ask. That is where the experienced brewers can ask them some questions about their process in order to lead them into what is important and what isn't. A lot of people don't have the time to research brewing science that some of us do. Taking a few moments to give them some of the most important information to help them brew better beer is not that big of deal. If people want to attack me for trying to help people better understand brewing, then I guess that is their prerogative. They are only making themselves look like asses.

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

Getting on my body armor for when Revvy opens up the hurt locker on this one...

This is quoted from another recent thread. This is the kind of crap I am talking about. I am sure this new brewer is really excited to ask another question, or to keep brewing at all if this is how he gets treated by experienced brewers.

Just think if guys like Papazian, Palmer, or Jamil had been treated this way when they first started brewing? Maybe they would have never stuck with it and ALL of us would have lost out on the research and information that they returned to the community because the community had helped them so much getting started. Jamil says it all the time, he shares his information and donates his time for free to help people because of all the people who helped him when he didn't know jack. Who knows if that new brewer that gets slammed for asking a question would have gone on to be the next Palmer or Jamil and we would all be reading their books in 10 years and learning from them?

 

[weirdboy]

This is quoted from another recent thread. This is the kind of crap I am talking about. I am sure this new brewer is really excited to ask another question, or to keep brewing at all if this is how he gets treated by experienced brewers.

First of all, you are misrepresenting the context. I'm sure you have seen the "airlock is not an indicator of fermentation" cut & paste that Revvy does, and there is nothing condescending, scary, or otherwise disconcerting about it. It is just useful advice that beginners should heed.

Your whole diatribe is misplaced, so give it a rest.

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

Well, I guess I have learned one thing with this thread. There are an awful lot of pricks on this forum.

 

[Scooby_Brew]

To brewers who may be new and are asking a question regarding what is happening in their fermentation, please post the following information for us to better help you out:


1. OG of the beer
2. What yeast did you pitch?
3. How much yeast did you pitch?
4. Did you make a starter? If so, how big and was it stir-plated?
5. Did you add oxygen and if so, how?
6. How long has the beer been in the fermentor?
7. Have you taken a hydro reading, and if so, what was the reading?
8. Did you rehydrate the dry yeast?
9. What type of vessel are you fermenting in?
10. What observations have you made by looking in the fermentation vessel?
11. What temp are you fermenting at and is it controlled?


In summary, lets all try to help people make the best beer possible. Sure, you can make beer by just letting it sit and letting the yeast work, but I would rather make sure that I am doing everything that I can to produce an environment that is best for the beer and the yeast. That is what makes the best beer. I think this is what we should be trying to share with new and inexperienced brewers, not telling them to just RDWHAHB.


Like I said in another post, lets stop RDWHAHB and start RADAKAB(Relax And Drink A Kick Ass Brew)

I am not trying to be a jerk here, but I totally disagree. Those 11 questions have NOTHING to do with the subject "Why is the bubbler not bubbling". When someone asks a question this way, you know they are a new brewer on their first or second batch. Now you could confuse him (her) with your 11 questions and then write 16 pages on all the possible reasons for "Why is my bubbler not bubbling". You will only confuse the newbie and not help him a tall. You will not help the beer either. It will probably make you look smart, but it won't do any good at all.

 

[weirdboy]

Well, I guess I have learned one thing with this thread. There are an awful lot of pricks on this forum.

Personal attacks, on the other hand, are not tolerated. Consider your post reported.

 

[wolverinebrewer]

I'm not trying to tell anyone or force anyone to do anything they don't want to do. I only started this thread to have the discussion that we are now having. I didn't feel that it was appropriate to have this discussion within the previously stated thread. I think we can do a better job sharing information with new brewers. Most of these people don't know what they don't know and wouldn't know the correct questions to ask. That is where the experienced brewers can ask them some questions about their process in order to lead them into what is important and what isn't. A lot of people don't have the time to research brewing science that some of us do. Taking a few moments to give them some of the most important information to help them brew better beer is not that big of deal. If people want to attack me for trying to help people better understand brewing, then I guess that is their prerogative. They are only making themselves look like asses.

Dude, this is exactly why you started this thread. It's because you don't like our answers.
I have read through this whole thread and I don't see you winning anyone over. I have to agree with Malfet, Airbourneguy, JonK etc. People don't like being told how to answer an issue. If you feel like giving every beginner a thesis on brewing then go ahead but quit trying to micromanage our answers. I think this forum does a great job in what it does already and it is all because of the people here whether their response is short or in depth.
I was following along the other day when you made the smart ass comment to one of Revvy's answers. I don't know why it bothers you so much. No offense but I've been reading here almost a year and I've learned 100X more from him than you and consider him an asset to this site. His responses, whether written or linked contain tons of info for new brewers. The guy has tons of experience and knowledge. I don't care if his answers are a little too harsh for you. This isn't powder puff.

 

[PVH]

Maybe consider cooling off for a little while, MSB. You have ideas about how to help novice brewers and have expressed a desire to do so in a way you think is more thorough than is typical here. That's fine, and it probably means you're an asset to the community.

But instead of just doing it, you've alienated members and injured your reputation. The hole just gets deeper...

 

[Yooper]

Holy cow you guys- knock it off!

People will answer how they want to answer, and I don't think it's up to us to decide who/what/how we'll do that. Some of us are long winded and give long answers, some give the "cliffs notes" version. Either way, we're all individuals and this forum has a "personality" because of it. I like it that way. If you don't, maybe you can be a positive influence in your desired direction.

EXCEPT- two things. Remember what your mother taught you. "If you can't say something nice, then don't say anything at all". There will be no personal attacks or meanness. Also, remember that you are not required to answer any question if you don't want to. There are 50,000 other people on this forum, and if you are tired of the same old questions over and over, then let someone else answer and just move on.

I will say this- I've said this before so this isn't new, but maybe no one has seen it recently. I love great explanations of the answers to questions but I dislike seeing a solid wall of text "cut and paste" into an answer. Sometimes you need to grab a link from John Palmer's book, but a long cut and paste answer isn't usually what is required for most of the answers. That looks like you're not even actually reading the OP's questions and just giving a canned response. That bugs me. If you don't have time to answer, that's understandable. But a solid wall of lecturing text irritates the heck out of me.

(Hey- did I just do that? A solid wall of lecturing text?!? Sorry!)

So, give the snide remarks a rest and move on, please. Thanks!

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

Maybe consider cooling off for a little while, MSB. You have ideas about how to help novice brewers and have expressed a desire to do so in a way you think is more thorough than is typical here. That's fine, and it probably means you're an asset to the community.

But instead of just doing it, you've alienated members and injured your reputation. The hole just gets deeper...

Maybe you are right. I guess I just have never really cared about my reputation. I have never been afraid to speak up and call people out when I see something I don't agree with. I thought maybe more people would be open to a more civil way to treat new brewers and their questions as repetitive as they may be. I have thouroughly been proven wrong.

 

[wolverinebrewer]

Holy cow you guys- knock it off!

People will answer how they want to answer, and I don't think it's up to us to decide who/what/how we'll do that. Some of us are long winded and give long answers, some give the "cliffs notes" version. Either way, we're all individuals and this forum has a "personality" because of it. I like it that way. If you don't, maybe you can be a positive influence in your desired direction.

EXCEPT- two things. Remember what your mother taught you. "If you can't say something nice, then don't say anything at all". There will be no personal attacks or meanness. Also, remember that you are not required to answer any question if you don't want to. There are 50,000 other people on this forum, and if you are tired of the same old questions over and over, then let someone else answer and just move on.

I will say this- I've said this before so this isn't new, but maybe no one has seen it recently. I love great explanations of the answers to questions but I dislike seeing a solid wall of text "cut and paste" into an answer. Sometimes you need to grab a link from John Palmer's book, but a long cut and paste answer isn't usually what is required for most of the answers. That looks like you're not even actually reading the OP's questions and just giving a canned response. That bugs me. If you don't have time to answer, that's understandable. But a solid wall of lecturing text irritates the heck out of me.

(Hey- did I just do that? A solid wall of lecturing text?!? Sorry!)

So, give the snide remarks a rest and move on, please. Thanks!

+1. Listen to her cuz shes a Pack fan (don't mess with em) and lives close to my favorite deer stand