A Genuine Viewpoint Opposing LODO As Unsubstantiated

[lump42]

When I was in my early twenties I used to love watching the 2 woodworking shows that were on PBS on Saturday or Sunday, I can’t remember which day. There was The Woodwrights Shop and The New Yankee Workshop. I really enjoyed them both. Norm had every power wood working tool imaginable and made exquisitely precise furniture. Real quality and beauty. Conversely, Roy Underhill had every woodworking hand tool known to man and while his work was not even close in it’s precision, it was elegant in a way that I found to rival Norm’s stuff in beauty. So one day Roy made a crack at Norm’s shop, mocking “the most important safety item, safety glasses”. So the next week on New Yankee, Norm was visibly upset and had a special little talk before his show on safety and how it’s not a joke. Consequently, and I’m not sure it was a coincidence, The Woodwrights Shop was off the air for at least a couple weeks.

So what does this have to do with LODO? LODO appears to have have the backing of science and industry as well as an air of the future of home brewing. Conversely, bottling beer, open transferring and not considering HSA seem to me more like the old way. Like Roy, I think it’s funny the extent people go to to make commercial grade Norm Abrahms beer in their garage, when I think that my Roy Underhill beer is a superior product if only because it is more like the old ways.

Also, like the little spat that I perceived Norm and Roy had, I think that the homebrew community acknowledges that LODO at least sounds good and elitists have a way of being really loud and convincing. Personally, I’d be more likely convinced to try lambic open fermentation then to do LODO. Roy beer is just better beer than Norm beer and I fully expect to have my broadcast shut down for saying so.

This reminds me of what I keep reminding myself to keep from getting to serious and stay fun. If monks in the 9th century could brew beer worth selling, then I should have no problems with my meger setup.

I like my woodwright beer too.

RDWHAHB

 

[RPh_Guy]

What does Lodo and the Lord of the Rings have to do with beer?

Lodo Baggins enjoys a fine ale from time to time.

I don't have an opinion either way on LODO brewing since I'm not sure whether I've had a LODO beer.

My brews are superior to available commercial examples and I enjoy making them. As a side benefit I also save huge sums of money.
That's what matters to me!

 

[Bilsch]

If Roy cut himself in the wood shop, did he just rub a little dirt in the wound.. or make a poultice if it got infected? You know, the the old ways?

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

If Roy cut himself in the wood shop, did he just rub a little dirt in the wound.. or make a poultice if it got infected? You know, the the old ways?

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not opposed to technology. Maltsers, yeast manufacturers and chemical companies like Starsan have made it much easier to consistently make good beer. That is where the real science has come to homebrewers.

If you read A Treatise On The Brewing of Beer, you will be hard pressed to find bad advice from E. Hughes. He wrote it in 1796. I’m not sure what science he was privy to, but after having read it 3 or 4 times and considering his recommendations, the only real fault I can find in it are his recommendations for making small beer better. He says, and I’m paraphrasing, “if you make the small beer better, your farm hands will treat it with more care and drink it slower.” Everyone knows the better the beer, the faster it kicks. I think that it just pained Mr. Hughes to see bad beer get made.

It is a real pitfall these days to think that because it has been measured with a scientific instrument that we have moved beyond superstition.

 

[Bilsch]

I think that it just pained Mr. Hughes to see bad beer get made.

Me too brother. Me too.

I must say, that was an enjoyable read.

"I do not presume to dictate to those who are proficients; but it must be acknowleged that good malt is frequently marred in brewing by persons who have very little or no knowlege of brewing, and I flatter myself that by a perusal of this treatise it will enable them to be more competent in making the best of the malt intrusted to their care, to the greater satisfaction and benefit of their employers."

 

[divrack]

I've made a proposal to the international space station for an opportunity to brew in space. It's the only way we'll settle this business.

 

[Bilsch]

How many LODO brewers in this thread measure DO at all stages through the process?

I have a DO meter and right after the purchase I used it a lot. Now that all the leaks and bad process have been eliminated and I'm comfortable with my system, it rarely comes out of the cabinet anymore.

 

[bob1852]

I have a DO meter and right after the purchase I used it a lot. Now that all the leaks and bad process have been eliminated and I'm comfortable with my system, it rarely comes out of the cabinet anymore.

What processes resulted in your biggest DO reductions on hot side and cold side?

DO is such a pesky thing....if you reduce it, it wants to get right back in.

 

[Bilsch]

What processes resulted in your biggest DO reductions on hot side and cold side?

DO is such a pesky thing....if you reduce it, it wants to get right back in.

That's an easy one to answer. On the hot side, preboiling the strike water and using an active scavenger. On the cold side, without a doubt, spunding.

 

[wiggybrewer]

I would eagerly jump on the LODO bandwagon if someone with credibility published a book explaining how and why it is worth the time, money, and effort. Credibility in this case, to me, means a high-profile expert in homebrewing, who would be able to articulate the improvements in beer quality beyond this "it" factor nonsense.

Until that day comes, its all horsehockey and I'll continue to kick LODO sandcastles when someone just starting out comes here looking for advice and is told to focus on this superstitious nonsense instead of looking at other obvious areas. I guess its the blind faith part that drives me up the wall; the same reason I won't willingly set foot in a church.

Amen!

 

[Bilsch]

When the information is contradictory, what should you believe.. accredited brewing science or homebrew experts?

 

[bob1852]

When the information is contradictory, what should you believe.. accredited brewing science or homebrew experts?

I'll continue to believe that taste is highly subjective.

And I'll continue to believe the MANY pro brewers that I've talked to that don't worry about DO on the hot side....

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

Kunze needs to shut the up and stop being a pain in my ass.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I never use oxygen in my brewing, so I'd say my brewing process is ultra low oxygen. Produces very excellent results. Count me on board!

I also don't use any CO2, so it's LODO AND LODCO!

 

[Bilsch]

I'll continue to believe that taste is highly subjective.

And I'll continue to believe the MANY pro brewers that I've talked to that don't worry about DO on the hot side....

I dont think any lodo advocates, myself included, would disagree with these statements.

 

[radwizard]

There is a fine line between LODO and True Beer.

 

[Murphys_Law]

There is a fine line between LODO and True Beer.

There is True Beer and then everything else!

Nothing approaches the awesomeness of True Beer!

 

[aeviaanah]

Bump

 

[ba-brewer]

If you want to get a good example of what low oxygen flavors are, try to find a reasonably fresh Bitburger or Radeberger in a can.

Found a can of Bitburger, with a date code of 2018 03 22 and second 2019 03 22. Does this qualify as reasonably fresh?

edit: drank the beer, first sip had a slight sherry like flavor, a few more sips maybe a honey like flavor and aroma. The beer does seem a bit sweet and not as bitter as the pilsners I brew. Guessing this one is past it's prime or was poorly stored.

 

[Bilsch]

I guess that depends on the definition of reasonably.
So this was made about 6 months ago and stored in the hottest months of the year. Could be good or maybe not depending on how it was cared for. More often then not though the Bit I get is good. Your nose should tell you pretty quickly if you got a good one. Should smell like fresh noble hops and ripe grain fields after a light rain. That's the best way I can describe it.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I thought I might just throw in a slightly different viewpoint into this discussion. My day job is as a hardcore biochemist and based on this expertise I have never had any doubts at all that there is absolutely something to LODO. So, I investigated it. I tried all of the beers I could get my hand on that were purportedly LODO - fresh and in cans. I didn't really care for them. Yes, I have cut beer-drinking swathes across Germany a couple of times and I wasn't blown away by any of the beers. Nevertheless, I went full-on in adopting LODO practices into my own brewing (stopping just short of a stainless chiller, but I used Brewtan B). It definitely changed the qualities of my beers to be more like the commercial LODO beers I had tried. Success! .. .. except I didn't really care that much for the beers. It seems that I just don't really like the "it" factor.. ..maybe that goes hand-in-hand with preferring hoppy beers? I continue to be obsessive about LODO on the cold-side - this has a huge impact on preserving the integrity of flavours and the longevity of the beer (particularly hoppy ones). Regarding LODO on the hot-side, there is definitely something to it but I can no longer be convinced that it should be considered as part of best brewing practice. My feeling is that it is another knob to twiddle to achieve flavours that one may or may not like, akin to liking or disliking hoppy styles or beers with/without lots of crystal malts.

This is so close to my LODO experience that I thought I'd forgotten writing the response. LODO DOES make a difference. I brewed about 30 batches this way after it was first talked about and my beer was VERY different. I haven't been to Germany, but have had beer served from fresh kegs that were bought in (refrigerated transport), to near home. I get what 'it' is, but prefer other beers. I got 'it' from my LODO beers, but preferred some of my other beers. One of my favourite styles is English Bitter which, as noted earlier, is often brewed with major splashing. I brewed some LODO and it lost of the rich fruity flavours that I like (which I now know are oxidised flavours) - it was nice and fresh tasting, but not the same. I too now use LODO techniques on the cold side (keg spund etc.) and like what it does for my beer. IME, cold side LODO is what is critical for hop flavour and aroma.

I find it interesting that LODO brewers keep referring to the quality of Belgian beer as well as German, but a look at Belgian techniques will show that some of the best beers from the region are not LODO. For example, many (some?) use copper kettles and open fermenters (and most bottle condition) which are no-no's in LODO. I preferred my Belgians (and I really like my Belgian beers) non LODO (but again, have benefitted from the LODO cold side). My favourite hefeweizen is brewed locally (moobrew) - it's a fantastic representation with a nice banana and clove balance that keeps some mouthfeel (too many are thin and tart). Their water is straight from the tap (filtered) which would oxidise the wort immediately.

I like something I recently read in Brew Like a Monk. It's something along the lines of 'close your eyes and think about what you want to brew, think about the taste, the aromas, the sensation when you drink it, then think about how you would make that happen'. Well, for me, LODO is a string to my bow that I could use to achieve some beer qualities if they were qualities that I wanted. Anyone who hasn't tried it shouldn't say it doesn't work, it does. It just that what it does isn't for everyone. And it doesn't make every beer better - it changes them.

 

[divrack]

After having mice getting to my grain I've decided to switch to LOPOO brewing.
I'll let you know how it goes, if it has the sh(IT) factor etc.

 

[dmtaylor]

A friend and I want to know........... does "it" taste like grapes in any way at all? Like fresh grape juice? If not, does anyone know exactly how to get "that grapey flavor" in a German lager?? My friend is able to duplicate German lagers with ease, but when I brew similar recipes, I have no luck. Neither one of us understands how our beers can be so different. Also, FWIW, neither of us has "gone LODO". We both just mash and sparge like the average American idiot.

If anyone can help, I would sincerely appreciate it.

 

[mongoose33]

A friend and I want to know........... does "it" taste like grapes in any way at all? Like fresh grape juice? If not, does anyone know exactly how to get "that grapey flavor" in a German lager?? My friend is able to duplicate German lagers with ease, but when I brew similar recipes, I have no luck. Neither one of us understands how our beers can be so different. Also, FWIW, neither of us has "gone LODO". We both just mash and sparge like the average American idiot.

If anyone can help, I would sincerely appreciate it.

When you say "similar" recipes, what do you mean? And why not the same exact one?

Is your water the same? Are you using the same water amendments? If the water isn't the same, what about getting some of his and using that, along with whatever amendments your friend makes? And brew the same recipe.

 

[dmtaylor]

When you say "similar" recipes, what do you mean? And why not the same exact one?

Is your water the same? Are you using the same water amendments? If the water isn't the same, what about getting some of his and using that, along with whatever amendments your friend makes? And brew the same recipe.

Nevermind.

Those who don't taste grapes in German lagers can ignore my questions.

 

[mongoose33]

Nevermind.

Those who don't taste grapes in German lagers can ignore my questions.

Whether I can taste grapes in German lagers or not, those were the right questions. How about the answers?

 

[dmtaylor]

Whether I can taste grapes in German lagers or not, those were the right questions. How about the answers?

But source of grapiness is exactly what I want to know. If you don't taste it, then I'm not interested in your questions or answers. I just want to know if the "grape" = "it", and how to get "that authentic German grapiness" regardless of whether that's "it" or not. Anything else is tangential rubbish. Guess I could open a different thread, but since there already was one, with basically no responses, I thought I might get some more responses hijacking here. I dunno... whatever... rape me again, I don't care.

 

[mongoose33]

But source of grapiness is exactly what I want to know. If you don't taste it, then I'm not interested in your questions or answers. I just want to know if the "grape" = "it", and how to get "that authentic German grapiness" regardless of whether that's "it" or not. Anything else is tangential rubbish. Guess I could open a different thread, but since there already was one, with basically no responses, I thought I might get some more responses hijacking here. I dunno... whatever... rape me again, I don't care.

Then you decided to change the question from "If anyone can help, I would sincerely appreciate it" to, apparently, "what causes grapiness?"

That's ok, I suppose. I was responding to the question you asked about help, which was apparently not to the one to which you really wanted an answer. Probably would be better to just ask the one question rather than two.

 

[Murphys_Law]

But source of grapiness is exactly what I want to know. If you don't taste it, then I'm not interested in your questions or answers. I just want to know if the "grape" = "it", and how to get "that authentic German grapiness" regardless of whether that's "it" or not. Anything else is tangential rubbish. Guess I could open a different thread, but since there already was one, with basically no responses, I thought I might get some more responses hijacking here. I dunno... whatever... rape me again, I don't care.

I think you’re possibly confusing Italian wine with German lager. [emoji1]

 

[dmtaylor]

Then you decided to change the question from "If anyone can help, I would sincerely appreciate it" to, apparently, "what causes grapiness?"

That's ok, I suppose. I was responding to the question you asked about help, which was apparently not to the one to which you really wanted an answer. Probably would be better to just ask the one question rather than two.

Facts:

The following sentences (actually the second is a sentence fragment, more like two parts of a single question) continue to contain question marks: "does 'it' taste like grapes in any way at all? Like fresh grape juice? If not, does anyone know exactly how to get 'that grapey flavor' in a German lager??"

The sentence "If anyone can help, I would sincerely appreciate it" does not contain a question mark. It also contains an If statement. It shouldn't need to be said, but I'll say it anyway now: If anyone cannot or will not help, then ignore.