A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

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I use Brewers friend (free) for my recipes. You can add all if the salts as well. Then I confirm that my numbers are correct in EZ water calculator for pH. I'd imagine bru'n water is similar.

When using software you can choose whatever profile you want and make sure pH is right. After that it mostly comes down to flavor preference. You'll have to experiment to figure out what you like. I don't have enough experience to tell you how one profile will taste vs another.

Just try one out and see for yourself.
 
DUnkelweizen doesn't have that high a percentage of dark malts typically so personally I would aim for baseline. If it's half dark munich, aim for an amber ale profile--more chloride than sulfate to accentuate the malt.

I will note that years after he did the original post, AJ said he'd halve things as "current" trend was toward less minerally beer.

In the brew your best series, Josh Weikert uses simply wheat and Munich, with only 6oz C120 2oz CarafaII. I've followed his guidelines for great results on several styles, fwiw.
 
balrog said:
DUnkelweizen doesn't have that high a percentage of dark malts typically so personally I would aim for baseline. If it's half dark munich, aim for an amber ale profile--more chloride than sulfate to accentuate the malt.

I will note that years after he did the original post, AJ said he'd halve things as "current" trend was toward less minerally beer.

In the brew your best series, Josh Weikert uses simply wheat and Munich, with only 6oz C120 2oz CarafaII. I've followed his guidelines for great results on several styles, fwiw.
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So the numbers suggested in the original post in the thread should be cut in half? Both the calcium and acid malt?

I never went down the brewing water hole far, yet!
 
seabrew8 said:
So the numbers suggested in the original post in the thread should be cut in half? Both the calcium and acid malt?

I never went down the brewing water hole far, yet!
Click to expand...

see this post in this thread where he now recommends half the salt; he does not mention acid malt change and I would presume acid malt is for pH balance and not flavor anyway and would not change his original recommendations.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/a-brewing-water-chemistry-primer.198460/post-8454299
 
HI All. I'm just starting to dabble a bit more in the water chemistry and would appreciate any advice on the following. I'm looking to adjust my base water for a pale ale recipe.

Source water as follows:

Calcium (ppm)Magnesium (ppm)Alkalinity as CaCO3Sulfate (ppm)Chloride (ppm)Sodium (ppm)Water pH
265794051627.7

So I figured a generous addition of Gypsum would bump up my calcium and sulphates. Then a smaller addition of Epsom salts to bring me to the following:

Final Calcium (ppm)Final Magnesium (ppm)Final Total Alkalinity as CaCO3Final Sulfate (ppm)Final Chloride (ppm)Final Sodium (ppm)Final Residual Alkalinity as CaCO3
88157922851627

However, when I use that target water profile in Beersmith I get an estimated mash pH of 5.64. Grain bill is just MO + small amount of crystal.

If I include an acid addition to remove at alkalinity I get a very low RA and Beersmith says it only reduces estimated mash pH to 5.53

Final Calcium (ppm)Final Magnesium (ppm)Final Total Alkalinity as CaCO3Final Sulfate (ppm)Final Chloride (ppm)Final Sodium (ppm)Final Residual Alkalinity as CaCO3
8815-122810862-73

Any thoughts on what a good approach would be to get a suitable water profile and mash pH?
 
1634_Racine said:
Then a smaller addition of Epsom salts to bring me to the following:
Click to expand...

If I were starting out with 5 ppm magnesium, I wouldn't add any more. In fact, I usually build from distilled water and don't add any magnesium.

1634_Racine said:
If I include an acid addition to remove at alkalinity I get a very low RA and Beersmith says it only reduces estimated mash pH to 5.53

Final Calcium (ppm)Final Magnesium (ppm)Final Total Alkalinity as CaCO3Final Sulfate (ppm)Final Chloride (ppm)Final Sodium (ppm)Final Residual Alkalinity as CaCO3
8815-122810862-73

Any thoughts on what a good approach would be to get a suitable water profile and mash pH?
Click to expand...

If you want a lower pH after getting the minerals where you want them, add more acid.
 
VikeMan said:
If I were starting out with 5 ppm magnesium, I wouldn't add any more. In fact, I usually build from distilled water and don't add any magnesium.



If you want a lower pH after getting the minerals where you want them, add more acid.
Click to expand...

i thought Magnesium was good for yeast. I may be wrong. Agree it is not an essential addition though
 
CascadesBrewer said:
Might have been better to start a new thread with your question. Why did the Chloride number change in your last profile?
Click to expand...

Yeah I wasn’t sure of the protocol so ended up with a bit of a thread hijack.

The Chloride number increases as I add more carbonate reducing acid. And then that creates a problem for me because I want to keep a high sulphate/chloride ratio. To keep the ratio I need to pile in more Gypsum and start looking at 300ppm +
 
jerrylotto said:
Mash pH should be in the 5.2 - 5.6 range
pH shift = 0.00168 * RA (as CaCO3) or pH shift = 0.084 * RA (as mEq/L)
So nothing wrong with a negative RA to lower the pH.
Click to expand...

But the very notion of RA itself has been rather thoroughly debunked at least as regards the Mash. First (and partially) by AJ deLange, and then (thoroughly and totally) by Chemists Barth and Zaman. The formerly presumed fixed Ca and Mg divisors are actually wildly variable variables.
 
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jerrylotto said:
Still useful as a back of the envelope kind of calculation IMHO. YMMV
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Indeed it does vary. That's the entire point. And if you don't know the direction or magnitude of the variance(s), the usefulness isn't logically very useful.

Barth and Zaman looked at only 3 nominally 'base' malts. Kolbach said the Ca++ divisor is a fixed 3.5. Barth and Zaman found it to be roughly 7.2, 12.3, and 14.2 (from memory) depending upon which malt they repeat tested. And what is the truth for the myriads of malts they didn't test? 3.5 as a divisor value isn't even in the ballpark.
 
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AJ deLange determined (as guided by translations he made of Kolbach's actual research) that Kolbach's 3.5 divisor (I.E., every extant 3.5 mEq of Ca++ ions will liberate 1 mEq of H+ ions) was intended for post boil and cooling. AJ guessed that perhaps 50% of this might occur within the mash proper. I.E., AJ determined that the Ca++ divisor is approximately 7 for the mash proper. Barth and Zaman's 'Pale' malt lot agreed with AJ. Their other two malts (Pilsner and Munich as I recall) did not agree with a divisor of 7.
 
Thanks for the advice all. I've been doing a bit more reading and listening to a few podcasts on water treatments. From all of that my conclusion is that I will not get too hung up on precise numbers - just going to make sure I have sufficient calcium and good sulphate/chloride ratio. Mash pH might still be a bit too high but I'm not going to die in a ditch over it.

@balrog and @jerrylotto - one thing I came across that might be of interest to you was John Palmer talking briefly about magnesium in this podcast - Beersmith 237

Towards the end he talks about importance of magnesium for yeast and some new theory on why calcium/magnesium ratio is important for yeast health. This might include bringing up magnesium levels up to 50ppm in the mash liquour
 
1634_Racine said:
Towards the end he talks about importance of magnesium for yeast and some new theory on why calcium/magnesium ratio is important for yeast health. This might include bringing up magnesium levels up to 50ppm in the mash liquour
Click to expand...

I have three comments on this (and no, I didn't listen to the podcast).

1) At 50 ppm, magnesium is very likely to come across as bitter and/or sour.
2) I would bet a paycheck that 99% of best of show beers have been brewed with much lower (or no) magnesium levels from the water.
3) "Yeast health" (depending on context) is not always synonymous with "best beer." The goal is to make the best possible beer, not the best possible pile of yeast.
 
1634_Racine said:
Towards the end he talks about importance of magnesium for yeast and some new theory on why calcium/magnesium ratio is important for yeast health. This might include bringing up magnesium levels up to 50ppm in the mash liquour
Click to expand...

I was in a recent online talk by John Palmer and he was saying that you get a lot of magnesium from the malt, but I am not sure any of us know how much magnesium our malt contains. I do know that when doctoring beer with salts, it did not take much Epsom Salt to where I was getting an odd metallic-like character. I am not sure what ppm I added, but I would be cautious about adding magnesium.
 
corkybstewart said:
I just went to morebeer.com to order brewing salts. All I find is gypsum, Oxyclean and filters. What's a better source or am I just not doing the search correctly?
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1643819296266.png
 
I am doing a Dunkelweizen this weekend. I am trying to find the Dunkelweizen water profile for Munich. I can only find for dark lagers. Anyone have a link to where I can find it.

Here is my current water profile. It is a mix of my carbon filtered and RO Water at 25/75 on percentages.

Ca 30.7 Magnesium 14 Sodium 11 Chloride 26 Sulfate 4 Biocarbonate 112 and Ph 7.6

Thanks

Erik
 
erikn68 said:
I am doing a Dunkelweizen this weekend. I am trying to find the Dunkelweizen water profile for Munich. I can only find for dark lagers. Anyone have a link to where I can find it.

Here is my current water profile. It is a mix of my carbon filtered and RO Water at 25/75 on percentages.

Ca 30.7 Magnesium 14 Sodium 11 Chloride 26 Sulfate 4 Biocarbonate 112 and Ph 7.6

Thanks

Erik
Click to expand...
Given your base water profile this would be a good target profile for a Dunkleweizen:

Suggested Water Profile (PPM):
Calcium........................62.5
Magnesium................16.0
Sodium........................11.0
Sulfate.........................52.4
Chloride......................52.4
Bicarbonate............112.0
Target pH...................5.38

That's a lot of bicarbonate. Your going to need some acid to achieve proper pH.

I have a water calculator at:

http://www.phantomwingbrewing.com/Calculator
 
The water profile seen directly above does not balance as to it's cation and anion mEq/L's. Therefore it is not a good target profile for any beer because it is impossible to replicate it in the real world.
 
Silver_Is_Money said:
The water profile seen directly above does not balance as to it's cation and anion mEq/L's. Therefore it is not a good target profile for any beer because it is impossible to replicate it in the real world.
Click to expand...
Actually, that's not correct. It's the additions needed to reach the target profile that need to be balanced, and they are. It's his starting water profile that appears unbalanced but there are several reasons why this may be. Usually, it's due to the fact that not all ions are reported in the water analysis. For instance, if a source of Ca has an associated anion that is not of the type that's reported, the Ca would show on the report but not the anion. This would cause the ions to appear to be unbalanced. The additions, however, do need to be balanced. Given his initial water profile, the target profile above is, in fact, achievable.

I'm actually surprised at the amount of bicarbonate he has being that he's using mostly RO water. If only distilled water were used, I would suggest the following water profile:

Calcium........................62.5
Magnesium................10.0
Sodium...........................0.0
Sulfate..........................80.4
Chloride.......................80.5
Bicarbonate..................0.0
 
brian320fo said:
Actually, that's not correct. It's the additions needed to reach the target profile that need to be balanced, and they are. It's his starting water profile that appears unbalanced but there are several reasons why this may be. Usually, it's due to the fact that not all ions are reported in the water analysis. For instance, if a source of Ca has an associated anion that is not of the type that's reported, the Ca would show on the report but not the anion. This would cause the ions to appear to be unbalanced. The additions, however, do need to be balanced. Given his initial water profile, the target profile above is, in fact, achievable.

I'm actually surprised at the amount of bicarbonate he has being that he's using mostly RO water. If only distilled water were used, I would suggest the following water profile:

Calcium........................62.5
Magnesium................10.0
Sodium...........................0.0
Sulfate..........................80.4
Chloride.......................80.5
Bicarbonate..................0.0
Click to expand...
You should see my water profile if 100% carbon filter. Water here is very hard. Without a softner it turns utensils that are plastic white. Our drinking water is on hard water with the filter. If I just do RO Water from the store. Not sure what to use besides Calcium Chloride and since german wheats do not need sulfate(gypsum). Sulfate brings out harshness in bittering. That is why English Pale Ales use it.
 
erikn68 said:
You should see my water profile if 100% carbon filter. Water here is very hard. Without a softner it turns utensils that are plastic white. Our drinking water is on hard water with the filter. If I just do RO Water from the store. Not sure what to use besides Calcium Chloride and since german wheats do not need sulfate(gypsum). Sulfate brings out harshness in bittering. That is why English Pale Ales use it.
Click to expand...
You certainly don't want the sharp bitterness that a Pale Ale would have but their sulfate levels are generally around 225-275ppm, way more than the 80ppm I suggested. The generally accepted sulfate levels for a Dunkleweizen are around 50-150ppm.
 
This has possibly been addressed in a different thread but I couldn’t find it. Is there any water software/calculators that just give you grams per liter? I’m sure I’m missing something but even the “simple” water calculators involve manipulating ppm numbers to match a profile. Is there something that you can just enter a profile and it will give you grams per gallon of each of the required salts?
 
jerrylotto said:
The Brewers Friend calculator works fine . If you put in the total volume as 1 l, the output will be grams per liter
Click to expand...
Just reread the question and realized that it was a little bit more involved. I don't know any calculator that will give you concentrations of individual salt solutions directly out of a profile without fiddling around with the amounts of each salt. Problem is there's more than one way to get there depending on what salt you have on hand and your starting border profile.
 
Exactly. Brewers friend's calculator is so easy to use. Just type in you're amount of water and stay playing with the different type of salts.

For ease of use, I recommend staying with gypsum and NaCl2 dihydrate.
 
jerrylotto said:
Just reread the question and realized that it was a little bit more involved. I don't know any calculator that will give you concentrations of individual salt solutions directly out of a profile without fiddling around with the amounts of each salt. Problem is there's more than one way to get there depending on what salt you have on hand and your starting border profile.
Click to expand...
Ahh, that makes sense.
 
Miraculix said:
Exactly. Brewers friend's calculator is so easy to use. Just type in you're amount of water and stay playing with the different type of salts.

For ease of use, I recommend staying with gypsum and NaCl2 dihydrate.
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CaCl2 comes from the factory as the anhydride. By the time you open up the bottle and use it just once, it will already be down to about 94%-96% CaCl2, so perhaps you can sort of ballpark figure that with each use it looses about 5% due to water adsorption. But you can't ever buy it as the dihydride (to my knowledge). When it is down to about 75.5% it is at the dihydride state. But it doesn't stop adsorbing water at that juncture. It continues until it turns into a mush water/salt goo.
 
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Silver_Is_Money said:
CaCl2 comes from the factory as the anhydride. By the time you open up the bottle and use it just once, it will already be down to about 94%-96% CaCl2, so perhaps you can sort of ballpark figure that with each use it looses about 5% due to water adsorption. But you can't ever buy it as the dihydride (to my knowledge). When it is down to about 75.5% it is at the dihydride state. But it doesn't stop adsorbing water at that juncture. It continues until it turns into a mush water/salt goo.
Click to expand...
Yes that's true. However, my plastic bag seals very well and since years it's not changing much, judged simply by the looks of it. I know it continues to attract water but I close it quickly and push all the air out before so it seems to stay within limits that are ok. I just overdose it by about a quarter or a third compared to the anhydrate and so far I seem to be doing pretty fine with that approach.
 
Silver_Is_Money said:
CaCl2 comes from the factory as the anhydride. By the time you open up the bottle and use it just once, it will already be down to about 94%-96% CaCl2, so perhaps you can sort of ballpark figure that with each use it looses about 5% due to water adsorption. But you can't ever buy it as the dihydride (to my knowledge). When it is down to about 75.5% it is at the dihydride state. But it doesn't stop adsorbing water at that juncture. It continues until it turns into a mush water/salt goo.
Click to expand...
The *label* on my 1kg tub of CaCl2 says "CaCl2.2H2O". Of course, that doesn't meant it is, for reasons you explained. I guess I could bake it or get a hydrometer that's actually accurate and calculate what it really is (= was), but as long as it's a reasonably loose solid powder, I don't think it's off enough for me to care. (I rarely use Cl salts anymore anyway, after I started using HCl for pale beers).
 

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