A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

[leesmith]

I couldn't find this in my searching this thread... is there any general guideline, similar to those in post #1, for beers that are low abv, e.g. 2 or 3%? With fewer grains going into the mash, the beer would have fewer minerals contributed from the grains.

In my case, I am more concerned with low abv pale ales than stouts as stouts would be providing more pH lowering grains. Thanks!!

Are you concerned about ph or flavor impact....or both?

 

[JJ900]

Are you concerned about ph or flavor impact....or both?

I think both. I have made IPA's, pale ale, stouts etc. without water adjustments, except for charcoal filtering out chlorine, and they came out great. The only beers to give me trouble have been NEIPAs sometimes being astringent.

Although I'm not trying to make that now, rather a low abv pale ale, I am wondering if there will not be enough medium and dark grains to bring down pH and protect against some off flavors.

 

[leesmith]

I think both. I have made IPA's, pale ale, stouts etc. without water adjustments, except for charcoal filtering out chlorine, and they came out great. The only beers to give me trouble have been NEIPAs sometimes being astringent.

Although I'm not trying to make that now, rather a low abv pale ale, I am wondering if there will not be enough medium and dark grains to bring down pH and protect against some off flavors.

Use some sort of acid to get the ph your shooting for; acid malt, lactic acid, phosphoric acid......
I’d suggest using a water calculator such as Brewersfriend or Bru N Water.

But yes you’ll be fine if you treat your water properly and get your ph in line.

 

[ajdelange]

... in the decade since original post...

Hard to believe but it has been almost a decade!

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Hard to believe but it has been almost a decade!

Time flies when you're having fun AJ!

 

[Yoshi]

Hey AJ,
Thanks for the guide on page 1.
Can you help me? I need a little help with my first homebrew experiments. I'm using RO water that reads between 0-3 ppm on my TDS meter. I've read that it's best to rehydrate the powdered yeast just on it's own in water first. From what I've read, pure water will kill the yeast though so I was thinking of just adding a some CaCl2 to my RO water. What is the right amount in terms of ppm on my TDS meter to add to near pure RO water before I add yeast powder? Is it 25ppm or are you using half that (12.5ppm) now?

The second thing I was thinking of doing is priming the yeast, by that I mean adding the rehydrated yeast to a sterile bowl with more RO water and dextrose for a day or two until more yeast is made (before adding to the actual beer ferment). Is the 25ppm (or 12.5ppm) of CaCl2 enough for priming the yeast in RO water with dextrose? If not I can add some of the tin of Coopers homebrew malt extract. It is a 1.7kg tin for making up in 23L of water and on the back it says it contains 18mg of calcium & 40mg of sodium per 100g. This would mean the tin of malt extract diluted in 23L of water would provide 13mg of calcium and 30mg of sodium per litre (ppm). I would assume there would be other elements in the malt extract not listed in the nutritional table on the packaging such as nitrogen but I'm guessing. Please let me know what you think I should add as a minimum so as not to kill the yeast or make nasty, funky flavours.
Thanks mate.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

If others can be believed, Fermentis is now apparently recommending that rehydration of their dry yeasts is unnecessary, as per their research direct pitching works just as well. I would speculate that other dry yeasts are similar enough to also run with this advice. Are you considering dry or liquid yeast?

 

[bgmac]

Ran across this post a couple of months ago and brewed my last 2 batches using the 1 tsp of Calcium Chloride per 5 gallons and 2% acid malt in RO water that starts out around 4 ppm. I was using tap water treated with campden before. Wow, what a difference! The tap water beer always had a lingering green twang that would take almost 2 months to fade but never really dropped all the way off. The RO/Calc/Acid beer at only 3 weeks is way way better with basically no green twang taste. I am a believer. So I finally came to the end of this long post and see that I should maybe drop the Calc to 1/2 tsp. I will give it a try next time. Glad I kept my old trusty 75gpd RO system purchased years ago for keeping a saltwater fish tank in good working order.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Ran across this post a couple of months ago and brewed my last 2 batches using the 1 tsp of Calcium Chloride per 5 gallons and 2% acid malt in RO water that starts out around 4 ppm. I was using tap water treated with campden before. Wow, what a difference! The tap water beer always had a lingering green twang that would take almost 2 months to fade but never really dropped all the way off. The RO/Calc/Acid beer at only 3 weeks is way way better with basically no green twang taste. I am a believer. So I finally came to the end of this long post and see that I should maybe drop the Calc to 1/2 tsp. I will give it a try next time. Glad I kept my old trusty 75gpd RO system purchased years ago for keeping a saltwater fish tank in good working order.

Do you know what your tap water's mineral levels were?

 

[bgmac]

Do you know what your tap water's mineral levels were?

I'm not sure what the mineral levels are in my tap water but it does test fairly consistent 145-148 ppm tds.

 

[Dancy]

Ran across this post a couple of months ago and brewed my last 2 batches using the 1 tsp of Calcium Chloride per 5 gallons and 2% acid malt in RO water that starts out around 4 ppm. I was using tap water treated with campden before. Wow, what a difference!

I did something like this when I brewed Northern Brewer’s Caribou Slobber brown ale. I’d have to check my notes but I believe I used 2 tsp of calcium chloride and 3-4 oz of acid malt with RO water. I was very happy with the results.

 

[brewstergalVT]

Sorry for my mistake of posting this here, have since started a new thread for the following post...
Thank you for the primer. I've just purchased a countertop RO system for brewing and have only made it to page 15 of this thread so forgive me if the questions I post are answered somewhere from page 15 to here.
Just the questions:
1) can I add all the minerals only to the mash and 2) then sparge with only RO water (if so acidify or not)? Here are the details:

I'm planning to do a 100% RO pils just to see how it differs from my typical pils using my tap water (which seems a bit minerally to me). For a 5 gallon batch I looked at Bru'n Water and determined that 1.3 grams CaCl in the mash & 1.3 grams in the sparge would yield about 25ppm Ca and about 46 Cl (using the spreadsheet RO numbers).

Is there anything wrong with using all 2.6 grams of the CaCl in the mash? My reason for this would be to have higher Ca in the mash for pH lowering. Then sparge with straight RO water. Is there a downside to using just RO for sparging if the minerals have been added in the mash? Also, in the past I've almost always acidified my sparge water due to my RA. From what I've read that's not necessary but will it hurt anything? My mash pH goal with light beers is always 5.3 (room temp). I'll be using 10 lb of pilsner malt and adding some acid malt, my typical is .6 oz acid malt per pound of pale base malt. I'm guessing I'll need to adjust the acid malt amount down when using 100% RO water but I'll figure that out by the pH readings.

Here's my tap water profile: Ca 54, Mg 3, Cl <1, Na 3, Sulfate 18, Bicarbonate 130, Alkalinity 131, Hardness 145, TDS 215. By my calculations RA 115. I have always been a boil and decant brewer to try and reduce the temporary hardness and then add in 2 grams CaCl to the mash only. Then to the sparge water I add either lactic acid or phosphoric acid because even with boiling I know I still have some RA left. But with RO giving a zero (or negative?) RA, it's new territory for me. I really want to be able to make better light beers. My beers are good but water adjustment is the last area for me to look at, frankly because it's been the most difficult part for me to figure out. I think water adjustment is where one can find the intangibles in beer. I'm finally at the point where I think I'm understanding alkalinity and hardness, how to adjust what and why but I've still got quite a bit to learn.

 

[PrrCabin]

So...it's been about three weeks since this thread was started. Enough time for someone to have tried out the method proposed herein and at least have a sense for how it turned out (taste-wise)...

Anyone??? Let's hear it! I'm anxious to give it a shot; probably won't have time for at least another week.

I'm going to brew an Edmund Fitzgerald Clone tomorrow using RO water and 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate per 5 gals. I check back in a few.

 

[jlinz]

Question for anyone:

I’m making an oatmeal stout and sort of messed up. I included the 2% acidulated malt in the grist and used the teaspoon of calcium chloride. Basically, I did the regular baseline with a stout. Will it turn out fine or will it have a bad effect on the beer?

 

[mabrungard]

For both of the previous posts, the lack of alkalinity in the mash is likely to make the roastiness of those beers more acrid and less smooth. The acid malt certainly wasn’t needed or desirable. Roasty beers often benefit from having some alkalinity in the mashing water.

 

[jlinz]

For both of the previous posts, the lack of alkalinity in the mash is likely to make the roastiness of those beers more acrid and less smooth. The acid malt certainly wasn’t needed or desirable. Roasty beers often benefit from having some alkalinity in the mashing water.

Thanks! Is there a way to up the alkalinity? I have not mashed the beer yet. The acidulated malt is just mixed into the grains I will use at this point.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Thanks! Is there a way to up the alkalinity?

Yes, calculate it yourself or use a purpose built calculator to tailor your mash water alkalinity additions to your recipes grist characteristics. Baking Soda and Pickling Lime are two popular choices. Alkalize mash water only. Never add alkalinity to sparge water. Only the darker brews need alkalinity. Lighter brews often need acid. If you are not using RO or distilled, you will need to get your water analyzed to determine how much alkalinity (and other stuff) it already has in it.

 

[jlinz]

Yes, calculate it yourself or use a purpose built calculator to tailor your mash water alkalinity additions to your recipes grist characteristics. Baking Soda and Pickling Lime are two popular choices. Alkalize mash water only. Never add alkalinity to sparge water. Only the darker brews need alkalinity. Lighter brews often need acid. If you are not using RO or distilled, you will need to get your water analyzed to determine how much alkalinity (and other stuff) it already has in it.

I am using RO water. Just trying to introduce enough allalinity to make up for accidently adding 2% acidulated malt to the grain for the stout.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I am using RO water. Just trying to introduce enough allalinity to make up for accidently adding 2% acidulated malt to the grain for the stout.

Acidity is something which is to be addressed by altering ones mash water. If your beer is already fermenting the yeast will set the final beer pH to their liking. There is nothing you can do at this juncture.

 

[jlinz]

Acidity is something which is to be addressed by altering ones mash water. If your beer is already fermenting the yeast will set the final beer pH to their liking. There is nothing you can do at this juncture.

I have not brewed the beer yet, just milled the grain.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I have not brewed the beer yet, just milled the grain.

If all you desire to accomplish is to negate the acidity of the 2% acid malt in the grist then a ballpark precision cure would be to first determine how many ounces of acid malt you added and then divide that value by 1.25 and then add that many grams of baking soda to your mash water.

Example:

You added 5 oz. of acid malt
5/1.25 = 4
Add 4 grams of baking soda to the mash water only

But after that you need to re-read post #1607 above, as Stout water generally requires some amount of added alkalinity.

 

[jlinz]

If all you desire to accomplish is to negate the acidity of the 2% acid malt in the grist then a ballpark precision cure would be to first determine how many ounces of acid malt you added and then divide that value by 1.25 and then add that many grams of baking soda to your mash water.

Example:

You added 5 oz. of acid malt
5/1.25 = 4
Add 4 grams of baking soda to the mash water only

But after that you need to re-read post #1607 above, as Stout water generally requires some amount of added alkalinity.

That’s what I was looking for! Thanks for the help!

 

[Colin Kaminski]

I am guilty of perpetuating a myth of the yeast controlling the acidity of the beer without regard to the mash pH. I now know that this is not the whole picture. The first thing yeast does is lower the pH of the fermentation but the exact value is dependent on the yeast strain and the wort pH. I used to believe that it would hit a constant pH based on strain but it turned out that I like a specific beer pH and I was adjusting my recipient to hit 4.2 pH by taste without realizing it. John Palmer did some experiments to try to push the same strain of yeast and was able to make a .4 pH range based on wort pH.

 

[cmac62]

I have read all 41 pages of this thread. I really appreciate the simplicity of the idea of the primer. Thank all of the experts for their time and expertise. My question is, my water report from the municipal source lists averages for the various salts and other variables, are these close enough to use as the baseline on the various spreadsheets? Also, with an alkalinity of 84 can I use my tap water? My guess is that it will need to be mixed with RO or distilled to get in the usable range. Thanks

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I have read all 41 pages of this thread. I really appreciate the simplicity of the idea of the primer. Thank all of the experts for their time and expertise. My question is, my water report from the municipal source lists averages for the various salts and other variables, are these close enough to use as the baseline on the various spreadsheets? Also, with an alkalinity of 84 can I use my tap water? My guess is that it will need to be mixed with RO or distilled to get in the usable range. Thanks

The alkalinity can be addressed via phosphoric acid. See AJ deLange's "Zero Alkalinity Method" thread for details.

 

[cmac62]

^Will do Silver. Thanks for the reply.

 

[downzero]

I think I need to read this whole thread, but even after listening to podcasts, reading Palmer's How to Brew again, and playing with some calculators, I'm having the hardest time understanding water treatment. Someone should put together a simple list of things to have on hand to adjust water profile and how to get there; all of the chemicals are compounds and the variables move all over the place. Given that I've advanced this far without messing with water, I really wonder how much I'm missing out on by struggling to understand this. I'd appreciate any responses and I will go back and read the whole 41 pages later tonight.

 

[balrog]

I personally think that post #1 says it all in the simplest of terms for me.
@ajdelange chimed in sometime later saying that the amounts these days are generally 1/2 those original amounts as back then people preferred more minerally taste.

But you really cannot go wrong with post #1. It's a long, deep, bumpy rabbit hole to go down to get into the nitty gritty.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I think I need to read this whole thread, but even after listening to podcasts, reading Palmer's How to Brew again, and playing with some calculators, I'm having the hardest time understanding water treatment.

When experts offer different approaches to a problem, a good approach is to pick a single expert and follow their advice.

Someone should put together a simple list of things to have on hand to adjust water profile and how to get there; all of the chemicals are compounds and the variables move all over the place.

if you are willing to start with RO/distilled water:

• Homebrew Beyond the Basics, 2e (Karnowski) has two water profiles: hoppy and malty; measure the brewing salts with an scale that has .01 gram accuracy
• Brewing Better Beer (Strong) has a similar approach.

Given that I've advanced this far without messing with water, I really wonder how much I'm missing out on by struggling to understand this. I'd appreciate any responses and I will go back and read the whole 41 pages later tonight.

Pick a single expert and brew using their advice.

 

[cmac62]

balrog, AJ wrote most of post #1, Yooper just posted it and made it a sticky. I also agree with KooperKat that find something simple and go with it. I may have to check out the Karnowski and Strong approaches because I am trying to get the water dialed in. Good luck with your water.