5000 year old chinese beer recipe revealed.

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I read the referenced publication and was surprised there is not a single occurance of the word "yeast", though presumably it was used - the Chinese were already fermenting rice at that time...

Cheers!
 
day_trippr said:
I read the referenced publication and was surprised there is not a single occurance of the word "yeast", though presumably it was used - the Chinese were already fermenting rice at that time...

Cheers!
Click to expand...
Because not until recently in the 17th century I think brewers came to know there is a thing called yeast.
Before that it was just the wild yeast which did the work. Mostly from bacteria of hands , feet or the open fermentation in the air.
 
BrewingWisdom said:
Because not until recently in the 17th century I think brewers came to know there is a thing called yeast.
Before that it was just the wild yeast which did the work. Mostly from bacteria of hands , feet or the open fermentation in the air.
Click to expand...

Actually . . . yeast was well known earlier than that. They may not have know WHAT yeastie beasties were, but they dang sure knew they existed and were harvesting them for re-use and resale at least by the late 13th century in Europe, and the early 15th century in England. People specialized at "barm sales" according to historical census records. And that would be yeast sales to you and me. Likely selling to both brewing and baking vocations. And no doubt harvesting their wares from the bottom of brews just as many of us do. Do not make the ,mistake so many make of assuming because they lived in an earlier day they were somehow unwashed unsophisticated ignorant heathens. People could put 2+2 together then too (Maybe even more so since they did not have google and twitter to do it for them) I would bet that recognizing the dregs contained the material needed for good tasting, consistent, beer results predates this by many decades or even millennia. They may not have been able to see they were bugs. But they damn well knew something in that goo was working on their behalf. And certainly there were most likely plenty of folks that still thought the magic stick did the job, but this myth is far too prevalent and totally unfounded. It is just as like as not that the "magic" sticks were ceremonial and imparted totally different functions and purposes than imparting the beer with the yeast for fermentation. I would be not one bit surprised to learn that the function of beer sticks - which were often ornate and family heirlooms had nothing to do with inoculating brews, and everything to imparting the strength and virility of the family spirit into the brew. The good stuff and bubbles probably came from the dried out gunk off the bottom of the last batch!

When beer was an everyday STAPLE of life and was brewed every few days or weeks at the most it is a sure bet folks put fresh beer on existing sediments and found a much more vigorous ferment than they got in fresh cleaned vessels - much as we do pitching on a yeast cake or using a starter. It would have taken no leap to see them saving such goo for the next batch and to keep on saving it in perpetuity. Remember there is written record of adding barm to brews, wines, meads etc, centuries before ole Louis was doing his yeastie things in the mid 1800's (And that is yeast by any other name). Yeast known as . . . YEAST was well known prior to Pasteur! He just identified it as creepy little cannibalistic cell critters that ate sugar and peed heaven. But folks knew it existed and what wonderful things it did long before that. If you think not - just look up a few colonial era recipes for breads, beers, ciders, etc. They routinely call for adding YEAST (Of several different varieties too!) to ferment or leaven. That would be a hundred plus years BEFORE Pasteur started his little studies and quest for vengeance that led to the CLASSIFICATION not IDENTIFICATION of yeast.
 
Well, more to my point, there were scientists trying to discern the ingredients, processes, etc, of a 5000 year old practice, using historic physical manifestations of same that yielded all kinds of details, yet didn't mention a critical component even once.

Just seems weird...
 
gunhaus said:
but they dang sure knew they existed and were harvesting them for re-use and resale at least by the late 13th century in Europe, and the early 15th century in England.
Click to expand...
Where did you get that? Any historical article/piece of paper on which we can rely as a solid piece of info?
 
There are plenty of them actually. But we can go back to Sir Kenelm Digby's Closet Opened most of which he compiled in the 1630's or so for n easy look. He routinely refers to adding God-is-good, Barm, or ale yeast to ferments. It seems by that era at least 4 kinds of yeast were recognized and I don't doubt even more. Since Digby was a dilettante and a socialite he was doubtless buying these in the markets of London. Paris, and Barcelona during his days. There are census records from the Henry the 8th era listing occupations of several villages as "Barm Seller" or variations on such. Folks with more knowledge on history can fix ya up better than me on the exact way to obtain these physical records. Ron Pattinson and particularly Martyn Cornell have covered these things in pretty good detail and could be a much more useful source of specific documents. I will say this; it is pretty hard to find a cook book, household book, farm book etc from the late 1600's through late 1700's that does not explicitly refer to use of yeast and of various styles from bread yeast to wine yeast to ale yeast etc. And that predates the mid 19th century "discovery" of yeast by a fair amount. Lastly - I believe I remember reading about records from the early Hanseatic League that governed brewing yeast and their trade (I believe in effort to maintain a "house" or "regional" characteristic to certain beers and styles governed under their rules) But someone with more knowledge than I on this political/economic effort will have to help out here. I would advise looking through Pattinsons work and Cornell's work for specific references. Either gent might be able to point you to direct records as well.
 
I always like the story of the individual group that possessed a particular stick used to stir the unfermented beverage. The stick had yeast cells on it and voila.
 
gunhaus said:
Do not make the ,mistake so many make of assuming because they lived in an earlier day they were somehow unwashed unsophisticated ignorant heathens. People could put 2+2 together then too (Maybe even more so
Click to expand...
let food be your medicine smart!

ITV said:
This was in response to: "i so want to know where the funnel came into it?" No electricity back 5000 years ago.
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now, now...just because they didn't have electricity...they had pumps! (i'm guessing ;))

https://www.agrisupply.com/tall-sha...fapkxpZVZG3fIAgQYfZJ_tQoIeF81QvxoCJ7QQAvD_BwE
and i'm sure they knew how to siphon!
 
gunhaus said:
Do not make the ,mistake so many make of assuming because they lived in an earlier day they were somehow unwashed unsophisticated ignorant heathens. People could put 2+2 together then too (Maybe even more so since they did not have google and twitter to do it for them
Click to expand...
Yeah agree.
Some civilizations were so advanced in their time that even today we cannot match them. Look at the pyramids ancient Egyptians made , how they transported those heavy stones at that time and look at the accuracy with those structures are made.
Gandhara was the main education center of indus valley civilization, now known as taxila. Not very far from where I live. I've seen their ancient temples, rock art and dude we don't have such skillful labour and artisans today. Even with all the computer and machine accuracy we cannot make those. Worlds first university was over there and they were the first ones to introduce eye operations , all that retina etc.
 
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BrewingWisdom said:
Yeah agree.
Some civilizations were so advanced in their time that even today we cannot match them. Look at the pyramids ancient Egyptians made , how they transported those heavy stones at that time and look at the accuracy with those structures are made.
Gabdhara was the main education center of indus valley civilization, now known as taxila. Not very far from where I live. I've seen their ancient temples, rock art and dude we don't have such skillful labour and artisans today. Even with all the computer and machine accuracy we cannot make those. Worlds first university was over there and they were the first ones to introduce eye operations , all that retina etc.
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Do you mean Gandhara? You've seen the old Buddhist temples? That is so awesome, I would love to see them to. There is so much Buddhist history in that region, it is unbelievable.
 
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day_trippr said:
I read the referenced publication and was surprised there is not a single occurance of the word "yeast", though presumably it was used - the Chinese were already fermenting rice at that time...

Cheers!
Click to expand...
To be fair, I've always struggled not to notice all the yeast slurry that collects on the bottom of my FVs at the end of fermentation. I'd be more surprised if brewers in ancient civilisations didn't notice it. Only requires a pair of eyes really. Even back then, one eye was enough, I suspect.
 
day_trippr said:
Well, more to my point, there were scientists trying to discern the ingredients, processes, etc, of a 5000 year old practice, using historic physical manifestations of same that yielded all kinds of details, yet didn't mention a critical component even once.

Just seems weird...
Click to expand...
I suspect they lacked PBW, starsan, etc., and reused 'contaminated' vessels. It really is a '2+2' moment to figure out the difference between used and unused vessels, and the magical properties of the crap left in the bottom of the used ones. So much so, the practice of 'respecting the slurry' likely emerged independently over and over in different locations throughout human history. I don't buy the idea they were too busy building things like pyramids. It just doesn't add up. The way I see it is, you don't need to read Copernicus or understand nuclear fusion to get a sun tan.
 
Miraculix said:
Do you mean Gandhara? You've seen the old Buddhist temples? That is so awesome, I would love to see them to. There is so much Buddhist history in that region, it is unbelievable.
Click to expand...
Yes gandhara. Sorry that was a typo.
Yes seen them. This region is a birthplace of Buddhism. Still during constructing new buildings when they dig ground ancient Buddhist statues pop out.
 
BrewingWisdom said:
Yes gandhara. Sorry that was a typo.
Yes seen them. This region is a birthplace of Buddhism. Still during constructing new buildings when they dig ground ancient Buddhist statues pop out.
Click to expand...
The birthplace of Buddhism is in today's Nepal in the region of Lumbini. All the past Buddhas on this planet have been born there. Your area became some centuries later mainly Buddhist, but nevertheless it is just amazing how far Buddhism spread back in the days. There is still so much to be discovered in the ground and in the mountains, one day I want to go and see it myself! I've only seen some single statues from that time and area in museums and these were spectacular.
 
BrewingWisdom said:
Yeah agree.
Some civilizations were so advanced in their time that even today we cannot match them. Look at the pyramids ancient Egyptians made , how they transported those heavy stones at that time and look at the accuracy with those structures are made.
Gandhara was the main education center of indus valley civilization, now known as taxila. Not very far from where I live. I've seen their ancient temples, rock art and dude we don't have such skillful labour and artisans today. Even with all the computer and machine accuracy we cannot make those. Worlds first university was over there and they were the first ones to introduce eye operations , all that retina etc.
Click to expand...
If you do the math, they couldn’t have built one pyramid in 30 years. More than 2,300,000 limestone and granite blocks were quarried, pushed, pulled, and dragged into place on the Great Pyramid. The average weight of a block is about 2.3 metric tons (2.5 tons).

30 years times 365 days times 24 hours in a day is 262,800 hours times 60 minutes per hour is 15,768,000 minutes. 15,768,000 minutes divided by 2,300,000 stones would mean one 2.5 ton stone would have to have been quarried, dragged miles and set into place every 6.85 minutes non-stop around the clock for 30 years non-stop with no stoppages or breaks of any kind to do it in 30 years. Does that sound reasonable for people who had copper tools and hadn’t even developed steel yet?

This is one of those things that is in front of us and yet is not explainable. The Ancient Aliens series spends considerable time on how the egyptians could not have built the pyramids with their technology in the time claimed. And they certainly could not have done it with such precision that every stone fits perfectly together such that you can’t put a piece of paper between two of them today.

I’m not an alien conspiracy theorist or anything like that, the show is entertainment. I’m just saying the math and the facts that we know don’t add up.
 
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An Engineer friend of mine nigh on vehemently refuted me when I made something along the lines of this argument, and told me that it could be relatively easily accomplished by us mere mortals while using the engineering techniques and equipment available at the time.

There are youtube videos of people splitting massively giant rocks with precision, and with essentially only ancient chisels, wedges, and sledge hammers, and they can split them with only about one or two minutes worth of expended effort, and via the work of only one man (or woman). I watched one of these videos only a few days ago, and in it an 80 year old and rather small man did it, and it didn't take him very long at all. The split leaves an amazingly flat cut face. Technique, technique, technique.
 
I laugh at the documentary movies that show a massive stone being dragged by a team of harnessed men over a group of logs for rolling, with some miserable wretches having the job of moving the now past log forward so the team can trudge the stone another foot forward. Wash, rinse, repeat. They had wheels with greased leather or perhaps even Babbitt-like bearings by then, and teams of animals would have replaced teams of men in moving the stones. Have you ever seen videos of guys pulling trucks or rail cars single-handedly? Once its moving the job appears easy, and they can move decent distances in very little time.
 
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bracconiere said:
i saw some show saying they poured the blocks into place with ancient sorta concrete?
Click to expand...
We know where the rock quarries were, and there are plenty of partially split, or cast out as imperfect stones. No evidence of concrete, ancient or otherwise.
 
Silver_Is_Money said:
I laugh at the documentary movies that show a massive stone being dragged by a team of harnessed men over a group of logs for rolling, with some miserable wretches having the job of moving the now past log forward so the team can trudge the stone another foot forward. Wash, rinse, repeat. They had wheels with greased leather or perhaps even Babbitt bearings by then, and teams of animals would have replaced teams of men in moving the stones. Have you ever seen videos of guys pulling trucks or rail cars singlehandedly? Once its moving the job appears easy, and they can move decent distances in very little time.
Click to expand...
I’m still challenging one 2.5 ton stone every 6.8 minutes non stop around the clock for 30 years. They fought wars, they had celebrations, etc. Nobody can work 24/7 for 30 years.

The idea that the pyramids were built by slaves has also been at least challenged if not disproven. They were skilled people who did this, not forced labor.
 
It is an honor to serve your god. And clearly no one worked 24/7 for 30 years. And the expended effort was far less than the overplayed drama filled mystery documentaries twist it to be.
 
Silver_Is_Money said:
An Engineer friend of mine nigh on vehemently refuted me when I made something along the lines of this argument, and told me that it could be relatively easily accomplished by us mere mortals while using the engineering techniques and equipment available at the time.

There are youtube videos of people splitting massively giant rocks with precision, and with essentially only ancient chisels, wedges, and sledge hammers, and they can split them with only about one or two minutes worth of expended effort, and via the work of only one man (or woman). I watched one of these videos only a few days ago, and in it an 80 year old and rather small man did it, and it didn't take him very long at all. The split leaves an amazingly flat cut face. Technique, technique, technique.
Click to expand...
Care to share that link?
 
BrewingWisdom said:
Care to share that link?
Click to expand...
There are multiple videos. Just go to youtube and search them out. I found the link that got me started right on the YouTube home page, where they present currently and popularly trending videos. Start there, and drill down until you find it. It may still be on the hit parade list.
 
bwible said:
They fought wars, they had celebrations, etc. Nobody can work 24/7 for 30 years.
Click to expand...
That shows they have a specific group of skilled people dedicated ONLY for this purpose. They were not meant to take part in any war or celebration etc. Or they exchanged holidays or non work days with each other. For example today you do my work on that pyramid today and on that celebration day you will take rest and I will do your work.
 
A man or woman who lived to see their teen years had a good chance of living a good long life post that difficult period. No need to meet a 30 year deadline. And the nourishment and exercise and training available to a Pharaoh likely meant that if they made it past the difficult early years to young adulthood, they stood a decent chance of reaching old age.

Witness the ages at which most of our Founding Fathers passed on. Hardly any improvements in medicine or medical practice. And a lot of them lived well past the average age at which we currently expire. They were of the wealthy elite class of their day and they bathed and ate rather good meals.

Low average longevity is in good measure an indication of high infant and youth mortality rates. That and poor hygiene and poor food (such as a diet of primarily bread and potatoes or other starches, for example).
 
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