4 wire usa gfci spa box possible to convert to 3 wire?

[itsnotrequired]

It is true. Yes, it would be a code violation to use the black conductor as the neutral but he is certainly free to do that if he wants to. Who is going to stop him? The point is that there very well may be consequences of varying severity if he does such things. For example a home inspector might advise a prospective buyer that the house's electrical system is in disarray.

well, if we break it down into such simplistic terms then yes, anyone is free to do whatever they want. of course, actions can have consequences. sometimes there is a false belief that since it is your home, you can do whatever you want WITHOUT consequences (e.g. i don't need a permit to work on my home, i can distill for personal consumption, etc.) that's all i was trying to convey.

using your example, a good home inspector would state the home has code violations, not simply 'is in disarray'.

 

[augiedoggy]

1st commandment: Thou shalt not run load current through the ground wire , ever.

there is no current running through it... Its going to the ground pin on the 3 prong outlet and the other end would be wired to the main panel where the ground and N are joined... I dont know about the OPs house but most homes dont have dryer outlets wired to sub panels if its wired to the main panel it will work as it should and in all practical terms it will work as good.. This is not whats being implied however.. its being implied that there is some real danger other than a technicality which is what has confused me.. In my main breaker box the ground and neutral bar is one and the same with both wired to it ... This means the color of the wire would be the only difference if I had it wired this way (which I dont)

I see lots of wiring with different color tape on the ends marking them in my customers buildings so I think this substitution practice is more common than let on to be.

 

[itsnotrequired]

couple different reasons why it is an issue to have neutrals/grounds tied together. one is that many installations use bare ground conductors that end up touching metal boxes, enclosures, etc. touching these items can result in a shock, if the ground conductor ends up carrying current. the other reason is if the neutral ever became disconnected for some reason. now that ground is carrying all the current so anything it touches will be come energized. the second reason is the primary driver for keeping them separate.

 

[ajdelange]

.. if its wired to the main panel it will work as it should and in all practical terms it will work as good.. This is not whats being implied however..

If you read the thread carefully you will see that that is not only implied but stated plainly:

No, it wouldn't ["actually work any safer than the other"]

its being implied that there is some real danger other than a technicality which is what has confused me..

As to function, safety etc there is absolutely no difference what the color of the wire that provides the equipment ground is.

What is being implied (and stated) is that the hubris of being cavalier about the code, be it on wiring practices that allow objectionable current or choice of wire color, may well lead to nemesis of varying sorts.

In my main breaker box the ground and neutral bar is one and the same with both wired to it ...

Now this puzzles me. I have never seen a panel with a single bar for both (but then I haven't really seen that many panels). Every one I have seen has separate bars with a bonding screw (or other arrangement). I have 3 panels in my house in Va. The neutral and ground buses are separated in each of them (because none of them is the service entrance). In my summer place I have 8 panels (don't ask - it's actually a smaller house but has an elaborate load shedding scheme). In none of them are the ground and neutral buses bonded. Two are for possible locations for an electric brewing setup.

What would you do if you wanted, for example, to install a generator? Have to replace that panel I guess.

I see lots of wiring with different color tape on the ends marking them in my customers buildings so I think this substitution practice is more common than let on to be.

...and actually he can bring what he has into compliance simply by putting a little green tape on the ends of the wire at the box and the panel

This is very common practice. It's all over my houses and I've seen it commercial systems too. It's completely within code.

I think a lot of the confusion when this subject arises (as it seems to fairly frequently) is because it often takes several rounds of posts before it is clear exactly what the OP has and has in mind. OTOH this is apparently a difficult subject to understand. I've done two additions to houses and had professional electricians botch the grounding in both cases. I also had additional work done (adding a generator) later. I thought it was interesting that the inspector commented that he was just going to 'check the grounding' because he trusted the contractor (good man this time - didn't botch the grounding). But even the inspector made a comment about the earthing system (and made me disconnect a second earthing rod) showing that he didn't understand how the system works.

 

[ajdelange]

couple different reasons why it is an issue to have neutrals/grounds tied together. one is that many installations use bare ground conductors that end up touching metal boxes, enclosures, etc. touching these items can result in a shock, if the ground conductor ends up carrying current. the other reason is if the neutral ever became disconnected for some reason. now that ground is carrying all the current so anything it touches will be come energized. the second reason is the primary driver for keeping them separate.

See No. 21.

 

[rkhanso]

To avoid any problems with the insurance adjuster, I'd keep the wiring to code - and not give the insurance company any reason to deny a claim due to my disregarding wiring codes. While there may be multiple ways to wire the equipment, there is one code to keep in compliance with.

I've not had an electrician inspect my brew system wiring yet. I need to have my wife's retired Master Electrician uncle over for a homebrew..........and an electrical inspection.

 

[augiedoggy]

To avoid any problems with the insurance adjuster, I'd keep the wiring to code - and not give the insurance company any reason to deny a claim due to my disregarding wiring codes. While there may be multiple ways to wire the equipment, there is one code to keep in compliance with.

I've not had an electrician inspect my brew system wiring yet. I need to have my wife's retired Master Electrician uncle over for a homebrew..........and an electrical inspection.

This came up a while back in another thread where an insurance adjuster commented that unless the panel is UL listed if there was a problem related to it the insurance would void the claim. I know of no official document an electrician can provide to make an appliance UL or CE certified.. I think code inspectors inspections can only appy to hardwired devices that are hardwired into the house and a panel would normally be considered an appliance.

 

[rkhanso]

I failed to be specific and was more referencing the wiring of the spa panel and any other sub-panel being wired up to code (which will have a UL listing on them) - since that's what the original poster's question was about.

Yes, the brew controllers and kettles won't be UL listed as a unit, though the Heating element itself should be. I checked my Dernord element and it is supposed to be UL Listed.

Be Safe.

 

[ajdelange]

I suppose we should all go read the fine print in our insurance policies.

The rational among us will understand that following the practices dictated by the code will in our panels, receptacles and anything we connect to them will minimize the probability of having a conversation with an insurance adjuster.

 

[Br3w4u]

If it’s portable then just make sure it’s the first thing you grab when you are running out of the burning house. Then you just blame the fire on the house wiring.

 

[Vincanity]

I too have the same questions. I'm trying to build a Spa panel with a 50 amp GFCI from a 3 wire dryer outlet for portability purposes. I do own my house but move often due to the military. Attached are a few pics of my main breaker panel in my garage. It appears that it is indeed only 3 wire, the neutral is attached to the neutral bar at the main panel and is used as the ground on the outlet to the dryer plug. If I wired this up according to PJs 3 wire diagram where the neutral bar jumps to the ground bar in the panel, will I have GFCI protection regardless of being in code or not? To make matters more complicated my panel is a midwest from HD and I was hoping to add a 20 amp breaker 110v so that I can use in my garage being as all my outlets are 15 amp. I would also like to run my welder off the 50 amp GFCI. So this seems as though the neutral bar is not tied in with the ground bar at the main panel?

I hope i'm not Hijacking your thread OP, I can make this its own thread if it becomes an issue. I just would like to get a panel setup so that I can run 1 heating element, have a 20 amp 110v circuit and be able to run my welder off the 50 amp GFCI. Thanks! Excuses my horrible paint pictures

 

[Br3w4u]

Well you won’t be able to pull 50 amps off of the 30 amp breaker so that’s one problem.

 

[Br3w4u]

I would just move the one neutral over to the ground bar and mark it with green tape but only if you are positive that’s the right wire.

 

[Vincanity]

So I know I won’t be able to use 50 amp off the 30 amp breaker, guess I should have just said the GFCI off the 50 amp. Is the neutral bar still somehow tied to the ground in the main panel though?

 

[Br3w4u]

Yes the neutral and ground should be bonded in the main panel.

 

[Vincanity]

Maybe I’ll just run a ground from the main into the spa panel. That would give me 4 wires, guess I would just run it through conduit.

 

[ajdelange]

This does not appear to be a main panel but rather a sub panel (I don't see any breakers at the top). If it is a main panel the neutral and ground are tied together there. If it is a sub panel then they are not.

If you have HHN running to an appliance in which you have a GFCI breaker and connect the neutral to the enclosure you must make that connection on the line side of the breaker and be sure there is no connection of the neutral to the enclosure on the load side. If done otherwise the breaker will detect phase to enclosure faults and phase to ground faults but will also trip if there are any 120 V loads.

Most important: If you want to replace an existing 30A receptacle with a 50A you will have to rip out the existing #10 and replace it with #6 (this is not easy stuff to work with - it's 0.17" in diameter). Were you to pull new cable it would, of course, be 6/3 and you would install a 4 prong receptacle and be set to plug in welder, brew gear.... You would also, of course, replace the existing 30A breaker with a 50A in the subpanel. At this point you are all set. But we would ask why you would put a GFCI breaker in the brewing panel if you had a GFCI in the subpanel feeding it. Clearly a GFCI breaker in the panel is the way to go. If you want a disconnect in the brewing panel a simple breaker would do. The catch here is that while you can find a skinny 50A breaker to replace the 30A I'm not sure you can find a skinny 50A GFCI breaker. Not all is lost because you can probably make room for a GFCI breaker in the subpanel by replacing some of the other existing loads' breakers with their skinny equivalents.

Finally I have to say that the nature of your questions suggest that you should probably be relying on the advice of a professional electrician rather than some guys on the internet.

 

[Br3w4u]

That would be a good option. If your receptacle is near the garage you could instead drive a ground rod through the garage floor and run a ground wire to the receptacle. Whichever is easiest or cheaper.

 

[ajdelange]

Maybe I’ll just run a ground from the main into the spa panel. That would give me 4 wires, guess I would just run it through conduit.

As I think I mentioned earlier in this thread the conduit can be your ground conductor if it is properly bonded to the sub panel and receptacle enclosure. But you'd have to pull 6/2 through the conduit for 50A. I think it would be easier to pull 6/3 (easier though perhaps not all that easy).

Running a separate ground wire adjacent to the existing cable may be sufficient. I don't know what the code says about that but I've certainly seen unprotected (no conduit) ground system wires run around installations that have passed inspection. Why would we need to insulate it? Maybe it needs to be mechanically protected.

 

[Br3w4u]

I agree with ajdelange LOL. But that will be a very expensive home upgrade. I was going to do a similar upgrade to my panel but it turns out that I can’t fit a GFCI breaker in my panel and to do it to code I would have to replace my panel and move it outside because it’s in a closet and the current code no longer allows a panel to be in a closet. I decided not to do it and I just got an in-line GFCI cable.

 

[ajdelange]

Even by replacing other breakers with the skinny ones?

 

[Br3w4u]

Personally I would ground your receptacle and stay at 30 amps a

Even by replacing other breakers with the skinny ones?

I would have to show you my panel. My house was built in 1969 and I have a very small GE panel. I work with a master electrician and I have consulted with him for all of my plans. He said I would have to thin out one of my circuits and remove a breaker to make it fit but that kind of work would require a permit and wouldn’t be up to code. It’s also a lot more money than I would want to spend. I would rather buy a new house.

 

[itsnotrequired]

That would be a good option. If your receptacle is near the garage you could instead drive a ground rod through the garage floor and run a ground wire to the receptacle. Whichever is easiest or cheaper.

i'm assuming this would be to have the existing neutral function as a true neutral, with the new ground connection creating a true 4-wire (hhng) system? if so, this would be a code violation and likely wouldn't work anyway.

 

[Br3w4u]

i'm assuming this would be to have the existing neutral function as a true neutral, with the new ground connection creating a true 4-wire (hhng) system? if so, this would be a code violation and likely wouldn't work anyway.

Why wouldn’t it work and how is it a code violation?

 

[ajdelange]

Well it would certainly work as an operator standing on the floor through which the new ground rod were driven would be at the same potential as that ground rod and, given that it is connected to the enclosure, at the same potential as the enclosure. As to the code violation I am not sure. Were a wire also run from the new grounding rod to the panel and tied into the house grounding system then it seems to me that it would simply be a grounding system tied to the earth at multiple places which is, AFAIK, good practice but a local inspector told me that's a no-no if the multiple grounding points are tied together with conductors that run interior to the structure. I don't know whether this is local code or in agreement with the NEC and I can see the reason for it.

 

[itsnotrequired]

Why wouldn’t it work and how is it a code violation?

branch/feeder circuits require an equipment grounding conductor, most often in the form of a conductor between the load and the source. this is to create a low-impedance ground path for proper operation of the upstream circuit breaker. a local ground rod without that solid connection back to the source doesn't meet this requirement. the ground conductor does not pass through the gfci circuitry and the impedance between a remote ground rod and the source breaker is such that if both line and neutral went to ground, not only would the gfci not operate but the upstream breaker wouldn't operate either. local ground rods are to help with ground equipotential planes for stray voltages or lightning strikes but do almost nothing to create 'a ground' in terms of breaker operation.

if only hot or neutral went to ground, gfci would still operate, whether the ground rod was there or not. basically, the ground rod gets you nothing.

 

[ajdelange]

That's why (fault impedance) I implied (if I did not explicitly state) that the new ground rod would have to be tied to the old system. Even then I am not sure it would meet code.

Even isolated the separate ground rod would buy shock protection but perhaps not fire protection unless the new ground rod and the rest of house ground rod had impedances less than 2 Ω each. Maybe in some soils...

 

[itsnotrequired]

That's why (fault impedance) I implied (if I did not explicitly state) that the new ground rod would have to be tied to the old system. Even then I am not sure it would meet code.

Even isolated the separate ground rod would buy shock protection but perhaps not fire protection unless the new ground rod and the rest of house ground rod had impedances less than 2 Ω each. Maybe in some soils...

it might meet code, provided that conductor from the ground rod to the source panel meets the requirements of an egc. but if going through the effort to wire back to the panel, why not scrap the ground rod entirely and make it a true 4-wire setup?

 

[Br3w4u]

Ok well then I was misinformed but you could still run a ground wire from your main panel to make up the 4 wire right?

 

[ajdelange]

If he wants to go to 50A he's going to have to pull #6 in any case so, of course, if he does that he should pull 6/3 and do it right. OTOH if he is willing to stay with 30A then running a separate grounding conductor from the panel would work but does it have to run in the same cable with the phase and neutral conductors? Can it run separately and be stapled, for example, to studs in the garage? Those are questions I can't answer. I suspect at least an eyebrow would be raised by an inspector were he to do that.