30,20,15,10,5 minute hop additions - are they worth it?

[permo]

I am starting to wonder at actually how effective a use of hops is when they are added 30 to 5 minutes left in the boil. I have made numerous beers with 3-6 oz of hops in this time frame added and been pretty much dissapointed every time.

I am wondering, if you may just get more bang for you buck using the following hopping type of schedule.

Bittering at 90 to 45 minutes, then a big addition at flamout, and then dry hopping. My thinking is that in most homebrew systems the flameout addition is actually an extended warm steep, I take about 10-15 minutes to cool my beer down to pitching temps, so it isn't instant. As far as I am concerned from an arroma and flavor standpoint (yes, flavor...at least percieved) dry hopping is second to none. So I propose this hypothetical recipe for IPA.

12 pound two row
1 pound c60
1.5 to 2oz magnum at 60
1 oz centennial at FO
1 oz cascade at FO
1 oz Chinook at FO

1 oz centennial DH
1 oz cascade DH
1 oz chinook DH

I bet this beer would be super flavorfull and aromatic....

thoughts on this concept/idea?

 

[Pivovar_Koucky]

I definately get the aromas and flavors in that time frame. I just finished off an American IPA with 12 lbs of 2-row, 1 lb of victory and the following hop schedule:

60 min - 2 oz. Willamette
30 min - 1 oz. Willamette
15 min - 1 oz. Willamette
5 min - .5 oz. Willamette
1 min - .5 oz. Willamette

No question it worked for me. Now, is it as strong as tossing 3 oz. into dry hop? That I could not say.

 

[permo]

I definately get the aromas and flavors in that time frame. I just finished off an American IPA with 12 lbs of 2-row, 1 lb of victory and the following hop schedule:

60 min - 2 oz. Willamette
30 min - 1 oz. Willamette
15 min - 1 oz. Willamette
5 min - .5 oz. Willamette
1 min - .5 oz. Willamette

No question it worked for me. Now, is it as strong as tossing 3 oz. into dry hop? That I could not say.

I am not saying that you don't get any flavor or aroma, I am just wondering if it may be better to shift the 30,15 etc..etc.. additions to the flameout from that standpoint...just to try and maximize hop flavor and aroma.

 

[PVH]

I am not saying that you don't get any flavor or aroma, I am just wondering if it may be better to shift the 30,15 etc..etc.. additions to the flameout from that standpoint...just to try and maximize hop flavor and aroma.

Thing is, the "hop flavor and aroma" of which you speak are not static things that you simply extract from the hops. Try making a tea by steeping, and another by boiling for a few minutes. You'll end up with a different flavor in each, not just a more intense flavor in one. I'll leave it to the true beer geeks to explain the different oils and how they are isomerized in the wort.

 

[babalu87]

Yes....................

 

[Bensiff]

All hop additions are worth it...well, not from an economic stand point, but from a taste standpoint .

There are a lot of ifs-ands-buts in that question. I have a suspicion in the back of my head that is completely untested that if you did what you propose it would make an awesome up front beer that would slowly turn into something with an obnoxious oiliness and a subtle background bitter. I see the additions in the 30 minute area as adding a slightly more stable flavor and aroma to bridge the gap between the rapid degredation of late hop additions and the much more stable and much less flavorful 60+ minute additions.

 

[whatsleftofyou]

Agreed with the above that it might be great at first, but a month or two down the road a beer like this would REALLY lose it. I did an experiment along the same lines of this where I ONLY did a 15 minute addition of hops. No 60 minute, flame-out, or dry hops. It calculated out to 70 IBU. After kegging it had this great flavor and aroma but definitely didn't seem to be 70 IBU, more like 35-40. My point is that these things may look great on paper but there is definitely a qualitative aspect at work as well. The only way you'll know for sure is if you brew it and find out for yourself.

 

[permo]

I can vouch personally for hops added to the boil adding a longer lasting aroma and flavor.

I have a IIPA that is nearing 4 months old, it has 100 + IBU, with 8 oz of 15-10-5-1 additions........still nice and hoppy, actually I think it is peaking...very nice beer.

 

[remilard]

I've done fairly well in competitions (low-mid 40s, several first places including an AHA regional) with IPA/IIPA that have been bittered with extract and only had after flameout and dry hop additions. The flameout hops sit for about 15-20 minutes before chilling starts (approximating a commercial whirlpool addition).

As soon as I can build or buy a sealed hopback I am going to experiment with recirculating hot through the hopback for 20 minutes before chilling which I believe will give the same effect with less hops.

My IIPA had two Norther Brewer Hop Shots for bittering, 6 ounces at flameout and I think around 6 ounces dry in two additions. This was for about 7 gallons post boil. It had a lot of hop flavor.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

Thing is, the "hop flavor and aroma" of which you speak are not static things that you simply extract from the hops. Try making a tea by steeping, and another by boiling for a few minutes. You'll end up with a different flavor in each, not just a more intense flavor in one.

I agree. You're going to get a lot of contributions to the hop flavor/aroma/bitterness by using a lot of hops -- but the impact of the hops in terms of all three are different at each step. None are necessarily better than others; they contribute differently and add complexity to the flavor by making those step additions.

You can dryhop lots of hops and you'll get great aroma from it. Since you "taste" through both your nose and your mouth, you will perceive some of that aroma as flavor. However, it's not going to be as interesting and complex of a flavor as doing the dryhop and the 20, 15, or 10 minute additions. That said, you may enjoy the flavor of what that process gives you -- and that's really what matters.

The other issue you run into is that the later the addition -- especially after boiling -- the less stable the hop contribution, so it will fade over time. This may not be a problem if you intend on drinking your beer quickly, but if you plan on aging it, you definitely will lose some of your hop flavor and aroma as time goes on.

 

[944play]

thoughts on this concept/idea?

Your recipe looks a lot like many Stone IPA clone recipes (except they're usually only Mag/Cent)... coincidence?

 

[permo]

Your recipe looks a lot like many Stone IPA clone recipes (except they're usually only Mag/Cent)... coincidence?

Nope, I literally just thought it up for strictly hypothetical discussion. I have no access to stone beers up here in ND!

 

[Ouroboros]

This sounds like the beginning of an interesting experiment.

Make a batch and split the wort. Add 3-4 ounces of hops at flameout to one batch, and in the other add the same amount of the same hops at 5 minute intervals starting with about 20 minutes to go in the boil. Use a bittering addition of something smooth like Magnum to keep the IBU's the same between beers.

Then you can have a beer at 1-week intervals after it's carbed and compare the flavors/track how they change over time.

In fact, as I've been writing this post, I'm starting to think about the kind of hops I would use in this sort of experiment. I might have to do it at some point. My curiosity is piqued. I'm sure the batches would taste different, but I'd love to taste the difference for myself.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

I often/usually do what you're talking about permo. I don't even bother with any additions >18 minutes (other than bittering additions at 60 minutes) because they just seem to not leave much flavor, no aroma, and reduced utilization so it just seems like a waste.

It depends somewhat on how fast you chill your wort and also how you chill your wort. Living in Florida, my chilling is likely not as fast as some others (I use two ICs, a 50' in the kettle and a 25' as a pre-chiller). I imagine in ND you have some nice, cold water.

 

[Yooper]

I often/usually do what you're talking about permo. I don't even bother with any additions >18 minutes (other than bittering additions at 60 minutes) because they just seem to not leave much flavor, no aroma, and reduced utilization so it just seems like a waste.

That's what I do too. I feel that any hop additions at 20-59 minutes are "wasted". I do have a few recipes that add hops at 30 minutes, but those are generally because I needed a bit more bitterness. I don't feel that 30 minute hops contribute to flavor or aroma at all, just bitterness.

I add my bittering hops at 60 minutes, and flavor hops at 15ish, and aroma hops at 5 and/or 0, depending on the style of beer I'm making. I make mostly IPAs, so I'll add the hops at 60, 15, 10, 5, 0.

 

[sjlammer]

+1 to Yooper,

60, 15, 10, 5, FO, DH

 

[oldschool]

That's what I do too. I feel that any hop additions at 20-59 minutes are "wasted". I do have a few recipes that add hops at 30 minutes, but those are generally because I needed a bit more bitterness. I don't feel that 30 minute hops contribute to flavor or aroma at all, just bitterness.

I add my bittering hops at 60 minutes, and flavor hops at 15ish, and aroma hops at 5 and/or 0, depending on the style of beer I'm making. I make mostly IPAs, so I'll add the hops at 60, 15, 10, 5, 0.

I do not totally disagree but do not totally agree either. I feel that it really depends on the hops. I've noticed this with columbus and Vinnie of Russian River said to try only bittering a beer and use Chinook. He said try this and just notice the hop flavor and aroma in the finish. just my 2 cents but I thought i would bring it up. Ray Daniels also notes this in his designing great beers book. He notes that for some reason the higher the cohumulone content the more the bittering hop comes through in the finish.

 

[Ouroboros]

I do not totally disagree but do not totally agree either. I feel that it really depends on the hops. I've noticed this with columbus and Vinnie of Russian River said to try only bittering a beer and use Chinook. He said try this and just notice the hop flavor and aroma in the finish. just my 2 cents but I thought i would bring it up. Ray Daniels also notes this in his designing great beers book. He notes that for some reason the higher the cohumulone content the more the bittering hop comes through in the finish.

That's interesting. I've heard quite often that cohumulone content is a rough measure of the "harshness" of a bittering hop.

If higher cohumulone hops seem to have more flavor/aroma presence when used as bittering additions I have to wonder if some of this "harshness" is the perceived clash between the lingering flavors of a bittering hop and the later additions used for flavor/aroma.

 

[permo]

That's interesting. I've heard quite often that cohumulone content is a rough measure of the "harshness" of a bittering hop.

If higher cohumulone hops seem to have more flavor/aroma presence when used as bittering additions I have to wonder if some of this "harshness" is the perceived clash between the lingering flavors of a bittering hop and the later additions used for flavor/aroma.

Makes some sense to me, anybody that has brewed an arrogant bastard clone, can vouge for the chinook coming through via early additions.

I think it is fairly obvious that there is still a lot to learn about hops in beer.....

 

[jaynik]

So, in developing a recipe, except for the bittering effect as seen in whatever brew software, how do you choose the hops at the different levels within the 15 minute window? Sounds like most agree that 15 mins is where you'll want the hops to contribute flavor to the beer without so much bitterness. For example, I like Chinook and Cascade, so I was planning something like this. I had placed my "flavor" hops in the 15 minute window, but chose based on their impact of the bitterness of the beer.

1.00 oz Chinook [10.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 4 32.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 5 5.8 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [10.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 6 10.6 IBUs
1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.90 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 7 8.1 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 9 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 10 0.0 IBUs

 

[graduate]

I believe that Yoopers ideas are correct. I have found that later additions add more to flavor and aroma. Dry hopping is the key to percieved bitterness.

 

[phenry]

I've brewed IPAs both ways (60-15-5-KO-DH vs. 60-big KO-big DH) and have been happy both ways. I couldn't really say which way was better or how they were different given how dissimilar the recipes were, but I think I may just do side-by-side half batches of an IPA hopped in the following ways (same grain bill, equal amount of hops between recipes) to compare. I won't be brewing them any time soon though, but they are on the ledger for brewing in March.

 

[NJstout]

a lot of breweries use 30minute additions, especially some of the really hoppy beers. Verus homebrewing, you rarely see a 30minute addition unless its a clone where the brewer said they do a 30minute addition

 

[The_Professor]

Check out a hop utilization chart to see how the different additions are, ummm, different.
I assume it provides complexity.
One could use staggered additions for any brew where flavor and aroma additions are appropriate, but I suspect more trouble than it is worth in many cases where the additions become very small. Interesting idea though.

 

[NJstout]

where did you get that chart?

 

[The_Professor]

where did you get that chart?

Not sure where it is from originally. This is one of a few hosted on HBT. Google "hop utilization chart".

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

Bringing this thread back to life to farther my own hop theory.
I think cohumulone plays a role in the perception of flavor in long-boil hops, thus chinook for example, will have more perceived flavor/bitterness at the 60ish minute mark. I feel cohumulone becomes aggressive when it is over 27% (personal taste) I feel there is a balance required for cohumulone to abv. The bigger the beer the more forgivable the cohumulone percentage, FG of course plays a role in this balance as well. I feel if a high cohumulone hop is used a bigger hop addition later in the boil is appropriate (45minute addition of 1.25oz instead of 1oz at 60)
I have found most of the perceived bitterness comes from dry hops.
My last brew was a pliney clone and I steeped low (125f for 20minutes) I definitely notice a difference (in a pleasant way)

I think I will start only using 60/90 minute additions then holding off on the other additions until the 15 minute mark for my IPA's. Due to the diminishing returns of hops, I feel this would be the most efficient way to effectively isomerize the essential oils in the late additions. This should produce a cleaner beer with lower cohumulone percentages. For beers where hop aroma and flavor are inappropriate I will continue my 45 and 30 minute additions to increase cohumulone thus perceived bitterness to acceptable levels.

 

[Challenger440]

I was always under the impression that boiling the hops for upwards of 90 minutes can lead to a much more harsh bitterness. I have never tried for myself because of this and also considering the minimal increase in IBU from doing so. It doesn't seem worth the risk to me.

Just a thought.

 

[Airborneguy]

I very rarely do anything more than 60 minute additions, 10 to 5 minute additions, and dry hops. I don't see the need for any other additions no matter what the style is I'm brewing.

 

[bobbrews]

Speaking from my culinary experience with fresh herbs in soups and aromatic broths, it makes sense to skip 59-1 minute hop additions and focus on a substantial warm aroma steep and dryhop in order to get the best aroma. We learn as chefs that boiling delicate herbs destroy the volatile oils so you want to add them last minute. I have yet to brew an IPA with this same mindset, but I would like to compare and contrast the results with separate dual boils of otherwise the same recipe.

It's not completely absurd that a 60 minute addition and late additions will not work. Elysian Brewing co. follows a 60, 2, DH schedule for a few of their IPA's and that seems to work quite well. I believe the boys over at Alchemist even skip the traditional bittering addition and focus all their hops at 15 mins and later.