3 vessel system

[redrocker652002]

I was just reading a thread about upgrading and it got me to thinking. I have, due to a very generous member of this group, two kegs that have been drilled and the tops cut to be a three vessel system. All the ball valves and fittings are in a box so it is a puzzle that I have not yet invested a whole lot of time to trying to put together. In rough estimates, what would it take the two kegs and turn this into a 3 vessel RIMS or HERS setup? I know I am being very general here and if this is a question or topic that is too vague to even answer I understand. Just kinda curious what I would need to do and what equipment I would need to add to get this to be good working setup? I am also going to look at Youtube and see what I can find there. Anyway, as I said, if I am asking something that is so vague it cannot be answered I understand. Just a topic of discussion Thanks in advance.

 

[day_trippr]

To review, for a HERMS rig you need three vessels:

- boil kettle (BK) - the simplest, just need a way to fill it and drain it. A drain port down low, and a fill/recirculation port a bit higher are good to have.

- mash tun (MLT) - next least complex, requires something to keep grains and wort separated, which could be a false bottom, or a "bazooka tube" or equivalent, or a big mesh bag - and a way to fill it and drain it simultaneously to provide for the actual recirculation. In this case a drain port down low and a fill port up as high as can be done are good.

- and then the hot liquor tank (aka HLT), the one with a heat exchanger coil, ports in and out of the HLT to connect to said HEX inside, and a way to fill it and drain it. My HLT has all four of those ports valved - definitely recommended.

Finally, you need at least one but preferably two pumps, a pair of heating elements/burners, and something - a table or a fabricated stand of some type - to tie everything together.

From what I gather, you need a third vessel, something to keep grains and wort separate, most likely a handful of bulkheads, one or two pumps, and perhaps one or two heating elements/burners. And probably some valves, a bunch of m/f connectors (ball lock or camlock or something). You'd need to bang in the bulkheads, install the HEX coil, fit the valves, attach the male connectors to your valves and the females to your hoses. Then address your heating mode by installing fittings for electric elements (which then need controls) or setting up burners (which need gas controls).

So, yeah, there's some work to be done And I wouldn't want to guess how long that all could take given there are different paths through that matrix, and a lot depends on "in house" vs outsourced effort...

Cheers!

 

[wootz001]

I come from a place of having inherited equipment from follow brewers (late father-in-law), and know the guilt associated with not putting it to good use. It sounds like you have a good starting point to build out a brewhouse of any complexity. There are some big champions of single vessel brew in a bag/basket (BIAB) which is hard to beat in terms of simplicity and ease of use. RIMS can be achieved with a single pump either by recirculating through a tube with heating element, or via the heated boil kettle (K-RIMS). HERMS requires 2 pumps and a vessel with a coiled tube heat exchanger installed to regulate mash temps. Check out the different setups and see what would work best for you. Pretty much comes down to how many vessels and pumps you are willing to deal and clean with on a typical brew day. Anything you don’t end up using, sell or pay it forward to the next homebrewer in need. Nothing worse than a cooler MLT sitting up in the rafters collecting dust!

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

You have some key components to build from. Just from your description I'd say think about what your end goal would be then add to what you have now. You already gave some great advice.

You could build a gravity system. Electric heated HLT at the top to drain into mashtun. From there you're going to drain into your brew kettle. This is in simple terms but you can see what could be done. You have several routes to go.

Every brewer ends up with pieces of equipment, either to use now or for future projects.

 

[mac_1103]

If it was me, I would turn those kegs into two recirculating eBIAB systems and sell one.

 

[redrocker652002]

You have some key components to build from. Just from your description I'd say think about what your end goal would be then add to what you have now. You already gave some great advice.

You could build a gravity system. Electric heated HLT at the top to drain into mashtun. From there you're going to drain into your brew kettle. This is in simple terms but you can see what could be done. You have several routes to go.

Every brewer ends up with pieces of equipment, either to use now or for future projects.

Thank you for the input. I was thinking of that. I need to go thru and see what I have. Might be a good day project when the weather is nicer and I can spread everything out.

 

[redrocker652002]

If it was me, I would turn those kegs into two recirculating eBIAB systems and sell one.

If I decide to do that, I will probably ask very little if anything. All these parts, including 12 or 13 Corny kegs were given to me. I feel like if I sell any of it, I would be doing wrong by the person who have it all to me. But, I appreciate your input, That is certainly one way I can go for sure. I did not think about that. I am guessing they make bags big enough?

 

[mac_1103]

I feel like if I sell any of it, I would be doing wrong by the person who have it all to me.

Really? If you add a heating element, controller and pump?

I am guessing they make bags big enough?

Brewhardware sells 30 gallon BIAB systems, so yeah.

 

[redrocker652002]

Really? If you add a heating element, controller and pump?

Brewhardware sells 30 gallon BIAB systems, so yeah.

I would probably sell for the cost of the items I add to it, but to be honest, this guy gave me a ton of stuff for absolutely nothing. So, if there comes a time that I do get rid of it or anything else, the cost of the items will be very minimal if anything at all. Pay it forward so to speak.

 

[ninkwood]

To review, for a HERMS rig you need three vessels:

- boil kettle (BK) - the simplest, just need a way to fill it and drain it. A drain port down low, and a fill/recirculation port a bit higher are good to have.

- mash tun (MLT) - next least complex, requires something to keep grains and wort separated, which could be a false bottom, or a "bazooka tube" or equivalent, or a big mesh bag - and a way to fill it and drain it simultaneously to provide for the actual recirculation. In this case a drain port down low and a fill port up as high as can be done are good.

- and then the hot liquor tank (aka HLT), the one with a heat exchanger coil, ports in and out of the HLT to connect to said HEX inside, and a way to fill it and drain it. My HLT has all four of those ports valved - definitely recommended.

Finally, you need at least one but preferably two pumps, a pair of heating elements/burners, and something - a table or a fabricated stand of some type - to tie everything together.

From what I gather, you need a third vessel, something to keep grains and wort separate, most likely a handful of bulkheads, one or two pumps, and perhaps one or two heating elements/burners. And probably some valves, a bunch of m/f connectors (ball lock or camlock or something). You'd need to bang in the bulkheads, install the HEX coil, fit the valves, attach the male connectors to your valves and the females to your hoses. Then address your heating mode by installing fittings for electric elements (which then need controls) or setting up burners (which need gas controls).

So, yeah, there's some work to be done And I wouldn't want to guess how long that all could take given there are different paths through that matrix, and a lot depends on "in house" vs outsourced effort...

Cheers!

I am high jacking this thread here and I apologize for that, but hope that my question helps OP with his solution as well. I am also starting to think about a 3 vessel system and what mine might look like. Given some of my endowments - mainly a house that came with a natural gas line pre-installed and ready for brewing, and challenges - like having nowhere convenient to run a 240v hookup - here is what I am thinking I will do:

- Boil Kettle with a natural gas burner (lots of power, but not much control)
- Mash Tun with recirculation (nothing new here)
- Hot Liquor Tank with a 120v electric element and brew controller (not lots of power, but plenty of control)

How this would work for me is I would heat the sparge water in the BK, then transfer this to the MT in order to preheat it (insulated). While the MT is preheating, I would heat my strike water in the BK. Then, I would transfer the sparge water from the MT to the HLT and the strike water to the MT and dough in. My HERMS coil would run through the HLT and I would use the precision of the electric element to dial in the temps, all while keeping my sparge water preheated close to its desired temps. I could then ramp up the temp on the sparge water just before mashout, complete the sparge, and then boil in the BK, again using the power of the natural gas burner. This seems like a great way to combine the benefits of both gas and electric while also taking advantage of what I have readily available to me. I am curious if I am overlooking anything though?

I was just reading a thread about upgrading and it got me to thinking. I have, due to a very generous member of this group, two kegs that have been drilled and the tops cut to be a three vessel system. All the ball valves and fittings are in a box so it is a puzzle that I have not yet invested a whole lot of time to trying to put together. In rough estimates, what would it take the two kegs and turn this into a 3 vessel RIMS or HERS setup? I know I am being very general here and if this is a question or topic that is too vague to even answer I understand. Just kinda curious what I would need to do and what equipment I would need to add to get this to be good working setup? I am also going to look at Youtube and see what I can find there. Anyway, as I said, if I am asking something that is so vague it cannot be answered I understand. Just a topic of discussion Thanks in advance.

I recommend you go down the YouTube rabbit hole, and spend time reading threads on this forum. Eventually, the pieces will fall together for you in a way that makes sense, and fits your situation. Until then, just keep it simple and keep brewing!

 

[redrocker652002]

I am high jacking this thread here and I apologize for that, but hope that my question helps OP with his solution as well. I am also starting to think about a 3 vessel system and what mine might look like. Given some of my endowments - mainly a house that came with a natural gas line pre-installed and ready for brewing, and challenges - like having nowhere convenient to run a 240v hookup - here is what I am thinking I will do:

- Boil Kettle with a natural gas burner (lots of power, but not much control)
- Mash Tun with recirculation (nothing new here)
- Hot Liquor Tank with a 120v electric element and brew controller (not lots of power, but plenty of control)

How this would work for me is I would heat the sparge water in the BK, then transfer this to the MT in order to preheat it (insulated). While the MT is preheating, I would heat my strike water in the BK. Then, I would transfer the sparge water from the MT to the HLT and the strike water to the MT and dough in. My HERMS coil would run through the HLT and I would use the precision of the electric element to dial in the temps, all while keeping my sparge water preheated close to its desired temps. I could then ramp up the temp on the sparge water just before mashout, complete the sparge, and then boil in the BK, again using the power of the natural gas burner. This seems like a great way to combine the benefits of both gas and electric while also taking advantage of what I have readily available to me. I am curious if I am overlooking anything though?



I recommend you go down the YouTube rabbit hole, and spend time reading threads on this forum. Eventually, the pieces will fall together for you in a way that makes sense, and fits your situation. Until then, just keep it simple and keep brewing!

Hijack away!!!!! LOL. Any info is good for any topic in my opinion. Having learned so much for all here I appreciate the input. It is still really a thought as I don't have the room right now. But, I am going to dig out the boxes one day just see what I have. There are a ton of fittings, ball valves and copper piping that all goes to it and a homemade recirculation pump and heating unit that would be part of all this. It is a DIY lovers paradise for sure. Anyway, I just got to thinking of it and decided to post, so any "hijacking" of the thread is welcomed and encouraged to keep the conversation going.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

I am high jacking this thread here and I apologize for that, but hope that my question helps OP with his solution as well. I am also starting to think about a 3 vessel system and what mine might look like. Given some of my endowments - mainly a house that came with a natural gas line pre-installed and ready for brewing, and challenges - like having nowhere convenient to run a 240v hookup - here is what I am thinking I will do:

- Boil Kettle with a natural gas burner (lots of power, but not much control)
- Mash Tun with recirculation (nothing new here)
- Hot Liquor Tank with a 120v electric element and brew controller (not lots of power, but plenty of control)

How this would work for me is I would heat the sparge water in the BK, then transfer this to the MT in order to preheat it (insulated). While the MT is preheating, I would heat my strike water in the BK. Then, I would transfer the sparge water from the MT to the HLT and the strike water to the MT and dough in. My HERMS coil would run through the HLT and I would use the precision of the electric element to dial in the temps, all while keeping my sparge water preheated close to its desired temps. I could then ramp up the temp on the sparge water just before mashout, complete the sparge, and then boil in the BK, again using the power of the natural gas burner. This seems like a great way to combine the benefits of both gas and electric while also taking advantage of what I have readily available to me. I am curious if I am overlooking anything though?



I recommend you go down the YouTube rabbit hole, and spend time reading threads on this forum. Eventually, the pieces will fall together for you in a way that makes sense, and fits your situation. Until then, just keep it simple and keep brewing!

I'll let Redrocker figure it out but here's my system, very similar to what you describe.

My HLT is a twenty gallon electric water heater with a temp controller to dial in my mash water temp and 120vac element. It's mounted high up so it drains into the insulated cooler, my mash tun, underletted into a slotted manifold on the bottom.

I don't preheat the MT, experimenting I found little difference. I do full volume no sparge mashes but the MT has a sparge arm built into the lid if I decide to do sparging.

After the mash I drain the wort to a vessel, a converted (legal) quarter barrel with a mesh basket inside. This acts as an accumulator before a pump transfers to the boil kettle.

After the boil I drain back into the mesh vessel then pump through a plate chiller to the fermenter.

So, more food for thought but you can see how another system idea could morph into a build that would work for you.

 

[day_trippr]

I don't preheat the MT, experimenting I found little difference.

I agree pre-heating a MLT can be skipped if the BK volume allows it. I would consider using the BK to heat up the sparge liquor close enough for the electric element in the HLT to take it the rest of the way and ship that sparge volume over to the HLT, then bring the remaining strike liquor up to the temperature that would take the MLT and the grain therein to the desired initial mash temperature.

I use Beersmith3 to dial in strike water temperature to hit a specific initial mash temperature and it usually gets within a couple of degrees of the target, then recirculation can quickly get it the rest of the way...

Cheers!

 

[ninkwood]

I agree pre-heating a MLT can be skipped if the BK volume allows it. I would consider using the BK to heat up the sparge liquor close enough for the electric element in the HLT to take it the rest of the way and ship that sparge volume over to the HLT, then bring the remaining strike liquor up to the temperature that would take the MLT and the grain therein to the desired initial mash temperature.

I use Beersmith3 to dial in strike water temperature to hit a specific initial mash temperature and it usually gets within a couple of degrees of the target, then recirculation can quickly get it the rest of the way...

Cheers!

Good to know that in practice preheating MLT isn't that necessary! I'm still in the planning phase here... If I stick with my original plan, I won't have the volume in the kettle and the main reason I was doing the preheat was to do as you suggest and preheat the sparge water so the wimpy 120v element isn't left to do that task all on its own. I call that getting two birds stoned at once! Wait... Is that how that goes?

I'll let Redrocker figure it out but here's my system, very similar to what you describe.

My HLT is a twenty gallon electric water heater with a temp controller to dial in my mash water temp and 120vac element. It's mounted high up so it drains into the insulated cooler, my mash tun, underletted into a slotted manifold on the bottom.

I don't preheat the MT, experimenting I found little difference. I do full volume no sparge mashes but the MT has a sparge arm built into the lid if I decide to do sparging.

After the mash I drain the wort to a vessel, a converted (legal) quarter barrel with a mesh basket inside. This acts as an accumulator before a pump transfers to the boil kettle.

After the boil I drain back into the mesh vessel then pump through a plate chiller to the fermenter.

So, more food for thought but you can see how another system idea could morph into a build that would work for you.

I think the message here is that everyone finds what works for them with time and practice. There are many different ways to accomplish similar results. So OP just needs to start mucking about until something works.

 

[Broken Crow]

A couple questions: @redrocker652002 ;
-Will this be electric or gas? - do you have burner(s) or power/temp controller(s) or parts for such?
-Are these kegs cut for bottom draining, or need a diptube?
@ninkwood ; Might the inconvenience and expense of installing a hood and proper ventilation be greater than the inconvenience and expense of installing a 240v outlet?

 

[redrocker652002]

A couple questions: @redrocker652002 ;
-Will this be electric or gas? - do you have burner(s) or power/temp controller(s) or parts for such?
-Are these kegs cut for bottom draining, or need a diptube?
@ninkwood ; Might the inconvenience and expense of installing a hood and proper ventilation be greater than the inconvenience and expense of installing a 240v outlet?

Great questions. My initial answer would be electric, but of course that is just a guess. I have two kegs that have been "modified" and to be honest, I put them in the back of my shed and have not really looked at them since. My memory serves that they had a couple holes in them for both drainage and recirculation, but I could be wrong. I am thinking of pulling them out this weekend as we are supposed to get rain all weekend and I won't have much else to do. More info to come.

 

[Broken Crow]

Keggles can make a great mash tun, just add some @Jaybird parts: https://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com/store/Conversion_15.5Gal_Straight_Wall_Mash.html
For an HLT; measure the cutout and compare the diameter to available HERMS coils... @Bobby_M has them and the pass-thru compression fittings you'll need (if you don't already have them) It can be a real bugger to install with the extra-limited working space of a keggle rim...in part why I decided to go RIMS, which @Bobby_M has available at very reasonable prices: https://www.brewhardware.com/category_s/1893.htm
Though like @ninkwood , I'm in Canada and buying from the US is pricey (Canada Post usually waives duty on purchases under $150) so I bought mine from Aliexpress: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006120679696.html?pdp_npi=4@dis!CAD!C$ 98.45!C$ 92.54!!!70.85!66.60!@2101effb17092253887387874e2ff2!12000035845553886!sh!CA!0!&spm=a2g0o.store_pc_allItems_or_groupList.new_all_items_2007522116135.1005006120679696
BUT: The included heating element is crap so I bought bobby's: https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/element5500.htm and chose the pre-bent option. Also; concerned with scorching I bought the much and deservedly applauded Auber DSPR 320
https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=53&products_id=769
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/understanding-the-auber-ezboil-dspr-320.699459/
I have a keggle as my BK and there are some annoyances: If you go electric, you'll have to do a custom diptube unless you want to leave a gallon of beer behind...regular 90° diptubes to the center will hit the element and a side-pickup will leave a lot behind and also make cleaning harder as you can't fully rinse it with your plumbing. I can share my solution if you want, but I assume you already have a BK, is it appropriately sized and fitted to carrying on using in a 3V system?

 

[mac_1103]

My initial answer would be electric, but of course that is just a guess.

Didn't you post a thread a while back about not being able to add a 120 v 20 amp circuit to your kitchen? Where are you going to get 240v for an electric brewing rig?

 

[ninkwood]

A couple questions: @redrocker652002 ;
-Will this be electric or gas? - do you have burner(s) or power/temp controller(s) or parts for such?
-Are these kegs cut for bottom draining, or need a diptube?
@ninkwood ; Might the inconvenience and expense of installing a hood and proper ventilation be greater than the inconvenience and expense of installing a 240v outlet?

I should have clarified that all of this will be outdoors! I have a covered patio walkout from our basement living room that came with a natural gas hookup that currently isn't being used. It's just begging me to save up for a Blichmann Hell Fire! (Or something more cost effective... Haven't done much research yet)

 

[ninkwood]

Though like @ninkwood , I'm in Canada and buying from the US is pricey (Canada Post usually waives duty on purchases under $150)

Sure is a pain! I've sworn off letting Canadian Customs handle my stuff. I order from Canadian businesses that will do that hard work for me such as OBK, or I drive down to the US myself and pick up from a PO box across the boarder.

I ordered some really expensive and high quality Paprika direct from Hungary not too long ago and customs decided to cut open the vacuum sealed bag and tape it back up with packing tape. Long story short, I ended up with a box full of red powder, and customs blaming the shipping company/shipping company blaming customs. I never did see a dime of compensation.

 

[Broken Crow]

I should have clarified that all of this will be outdoors! I have a covered patio walkout from our basement living room that came with a natural gas hookup that currently isn't being used. It's just begging me to save up for a Blichmann Hell Fire! (Or something more cost effective... Haven't done much research yet)

Personal opinion: Go RIMS with a Bobby_M element and Auber DSPR320...you can easily run that on 110V which you can't count on for reasonable ramp-times in an HLT.

 

[Broken Crow]

Sure is a pain! I've sworn off letting Canadian Customs handle my stuff. I order from Canadian businesses that will do that hard work for me such as OBK, or I drive down to the US myself and pick up from a PO box across the boarder.

I ordered some really expensive and high quality Paprika direct from Hungary not too long ago and customs decided to cut open the vacuum sealed bag and tape it back up with packing tape. Long story short, I ended up with a box full of red powder, and customs blaming the shipping company/shipping company blaming customs. I never did see a dime of compensation.

Thanks for the memories! Back in the late 80's early 90's I had a PO box in Detroit for my 'Production Company" that I used to acquire 16mm film and sound gear.

 

[ninkwood]

Personal opinion: Go RIMS with a Bobby_M element and Auber DSPR320...you can easily run that on 110V which you can't count on for reasonable ramp-times in an HLT.

Noted!

I've definitely considered RIMS as well. My concern with it is scorching, but I hear you about ramp times. I don't think I'd be able to do step mashes using the HERMS setup I'm describing, but I could always add additional mash water from the BK if I wanted to step mash. Frankly I have no idea how I'll want to brew on this system. I want to keep as many doors open as possible.

 

[DonT]

For some good reading, I would suggest checking out Electric Brewery. Pretty good explanation of how to put together a 3v HERMS...

 

[redrocker652002]

Didn't you post a thread a while back about not being able to add a 120 v 20 amp circuit to your kitchen? Where are you going to get 240v for an electric brewing rig?

I don't think that was me. I have a 220 in the garage already.

 

[Broken Crow]

Noted!

I've definitely considered RIMS as well. My concern with it is scorching, but I hear you about ramp times. I don't think I'd be able to do step mashes using the HERMS setup I'm describing, but I could always add additional mash water from the BK if I wanted to step mash. Frankly I have no idea how I'll want to brew on this system. I want to keep as many doors open as possible.

To avoid scorching use the 'longest' element you can, as heat-exchange without burning is a matter of spreading the heat out over a larger surface area, rather than concentrated wattage in the area of a short element, and being careful of the power ramping output which is elegantly solved by Auber with their DSPR 320.

 

[ninkwood]

To avoid scorching use the 'longest' element you can, as heat-exchange without burning is a matter of spreading the heat out over a larger surface area, rather than concentrated wattage in the area of a short element, and being careful of the power ramping output which is elegantly solved by Auber with their DSPR 320.

I'm pumped to build a controller for the heating element. Honestly, fine tuning mash temp control is just an excuse to play around and learn something in that arena. But that'll be a ways down the road!

 

[Broken Crow]

Do yourself a favour and read @Bobby_M 's thread; https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/understanding-the-auber-ezboil-dspr-320.699459/ and get a long heating element for a rims tube... OBK is currently sold out of the straight 5500W Camco's which are a very good choice, but the the brewhardware Dernoid has the option of ordering it with a nice bend at the base so that your element won't hit the sides of the rims tube and that was worth the shipping and duty to me... I'm normally a DIY guy, but since the element is a strip of nichrome surrounded my ceramic surrounded by a steel alloy tube, it takes great care in bending it without wrecking it and I can no longer do precision work reliably so...

 

[ninkwood]

Do yourself a favour and read @Bobby_M 's thread; https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/understanding-the-auber-ezboil-dspr-320.699459/ and get a long heating element for a rims tube... OBK is currently sold out of the straight 5500W Camco's which are a very good choice, but the the brewhardware Dernoid has the option of ordering it with a nice bend at the base so that your element won't hit the sides of the rims tube and that was worth the shipping and duty to me... I'm normally a DIY guy, but since the element is a strip of nichrome surrounded my ceramic surrounded by a steel alloy tube, it takes great care in bending it without wrecking it and I can no longer do precision work reliably so...

I know where to draw the line as well and wouldn't be attempting a bend like their either

I'd either have to spend a boatload of money running a 240v hookup well over 100 feet through walls and floors, or I'm stuck with 120v + gas. I think my plan above will make 120v sufficient, though I'm sure ramping up will be a bit frustrating and leave something to be desired.

 

[Broken Crow]

Yeah, that's actually why I keep yammering on about a RIMS; 120V is plently of power to maintain and incrementally step up the small volume passing through the tube, but a lot harder to do with the much larger volume in a HERMS/HLT.... I'm just rrying to weigh in heavily on the RIMS vs. HERMS for your situation.