3-in-1 "Boil Kettle, Jacketed Chiller, Conical Fermenter" by Brewha

[Jimmy82]

As for temperature control, I've been running the glycol chiller (with water, not glycol) and it's been working great. I've had it down to 35*F for crash cooling and it had no problem with icing up around the cooling coils in the reservoir. Also, it keeps ferm temps bang on - I haven't seen the temp change even 1* during fermentation. The one thing I will say, is that I'd love to see an insulated jacket (neoprene?) for the BIAC to help with the sweating..it can lead to quite a bit of condensation on the floor if you're trying to crash cool or lager a beer. The picture below was after about 1hr of sitting at crash cooling temp..it got significantly worse after a day..I had to put a container beneath the conical to collect some of the dripping water.

 

[cuda6pak]

I'm still doing full volume mashes, and usually hit around 80%. I'm not sure how the sparge would work, unless you're doing it because of volume constraints with the BIAC. The reason I say this is that there's a significant volume of space below the colander (I'm guessing a bit over 20 liters), so realistically, this dead space isn't available to the mash for your liqour/grist ratio calculations...you need enough water to fill the dead space, PLUS, enough of the colander submerged to conduct the mash. The only time I could see myself adding a sparge is if I'm doing a really high gravity brew that I can't fit all of the grain and water in at once.

Yeah I guess a sparge would be pretty difficult, almost have to dump the sparge water into the collander at the same time you lowered it back into the BIAC, assuming the mash was fully covered. Sounds fairly difficult and the reason I'm not looking at the BIAC.

What's the highest gravity you have done on the no sparge BIAC setup and what was it's efficiency? If I can hit 65-70% efficiency in a 1.100 beer that's better than my current 3 tier setup.

As for temperature control, I've been running the glycol chiller (with water, not glycol) and it's been working great. I've had it down to 35*F for crash cooling and it had no problem with icing up around the cooling coils in the reservoir. Also, it keeps ferm temps bang on - I haven't seen the temp change even 1* during fermentation. The one thing I will say, is that I'd love to see an insulated jacket (neoprene?) for the BIAC to help with the sweating..it can lead to quite a bit of condensation on the floor if you're trying to crash cool or lager a beer. The picture below was after about 1hr of sitting at crash cooling temp..it got significantly worse after a day..I had to put a container beneath the conical to collect some of the dripping water.

Do you have any problem with suckback when crash cooling something that large? I'd be afraid half the starsan would end up in the fermentor.

 

[Jimmy82]

Yeah I guess a sparge would be pretty difficult, almost have to dump the sparge water into the collander at the same time you lowered it back into the BIAC, assuming the mash was fully covered. Sounds fairly difficult and the reason I'm not looking at the BIAC.

The sparge itself wouldn't be hard - you can just raise the colander and pour water over the grain bed..IMO, sparge water doesn't need to be warm - I used to do cold water sparges all the time and didn't see any negative effects from it. In the newest video for the small BIAC, Nathan talks about filling the jacket of the conical with water so that you can then use that to sparge..the jacket on my BIAC holds approximately 20L of water, so that's an option if you want the water to be hot.

What's the highest gravity you have done on the no sparge BIAC setup and what was it's efficiency? If I can hit 65-70% efficiency in a 1.100 beer that's better than my current 3 tier setup.

Highest gravity I've done so far is 1.067 (around 80% efficiency) - so nothing up in the 1.100 range. I don't see 65-70% efficiency being a problem, however, I'm pretty sure you would have to add a sparge for that amount of grain.

Do you have any problem with suckback when crash cooling something that large? I'd be afraid half the starsan would end up in the fermentor.

If you look at the last picture I posted, you'll notice I had the co2 hooked up. When crash cooling, I hook that up and set it at a couple of PSI pressure to counter any vacuum caused by the crash cooling.

 

[cuda6pak]

I guess sparging wouldn't be too bad if needed, but if I can get 70-80% efficiency consistently without it, than I probably wouldn't bother. Unless it was for a big RIS or something of the like. I may have missed it, but what is the maximum amount of grain the collander will hold?

Ahh, I had thought about hooking up with c02. That's awesome! Guess you could use that same tank/reg for pushing out into the keg

 

[Jimmy82]

I guess sparging wouldn't be too bad if needed, but if I can get 70-80% efficiency consistently without it, than I probably wouldn't bother. Unless it was for a big RIS or something of the like. I may have missed it, but what is the maximum amount of grain the collander will hold?

Ahh, I had thought about hooking up with c02. That's awesome! Guess you could use that same tank/reg for pushing out into the keg

I'm honestly not sure what the maximum grain bill is with the colander..that's something Nathan @ BREWHA could likely answer.

 

[cuda6pak]

Just heard back from him. Approximately 45lbs of grain. That's about as much as I'll ever need.

And I believe MeetsCriteria asked about this further back, but Nathan also confirmed that the BIAC now comes with a stainless steel water level ruler :rockin:

 

[MeetsCriteria]

Nathan at BREWHA is an outstanding resource. I had a simple issue on my first brew day but he called me via cell just to make sure all was well! Can't give enough praise.

For myself, I only made a single barleywine batch (OG was something like 1.116) and it lasted me over 2 years. That was in a 10 gal tun (pre-BREWHA).

My 1st gen 3-in-1 covers the element at 3 gal. So that leaves 16-3 = 13 gal of capacity should I use the colander which would be over-full so say 10 gal of capacity which would = same as my regular tun.

Not sure of the 20 gal dimensions, but I'd have to think that the current generation (20 gal BIAC) would have much > than a 10 gal capacity for the colander. 45# grain sure sounds like it is more! Sounds ideal!

Love the water level ruler!!!

Apart from that, it occurs to me, IF I was inclined to make another very strong beer and there wasn't enough room in the colander, I'd put a mash tun in line with the BIAC. So basically I'd recirculate into the mash tun which would be running off into the colander. Not how it was designed, and maybe even defeats the purpose of the BIAC, but in a pinch, I'd do it, if for no other reason that the sheer novelty of it.

At any rate, good luck! It's a great piece of gear!

 

[Jimmy82]

The water volume stick is great. It hangs on the side and makes volume readings simple.

 

[nackedei]

A bit long, but want to contextualize so I can hear the opinions from the BIAC people on What Is To Be Done in my brewing life. A million thanks for any input well in advance.

So... I'm returning to homebrewing after a few year hiatus due to a series of big moves for work bookended by apartment living. Previously I had been doing 10 gallon AG batches in converted kegs, propane, the standard stuff. I sold off all my brew gear before the moves (but kept kegging system, measurement devices, e.g. smaller but expensive stuff), and it's now time to get back in.

I want to go electric for a million reasons. Examining my various options while home from work sick as a dog for a few days, I was hemming and hawing over various ways to do so piecemeal: heat sticks to augment stove top before moving up to a full electric system, etc. But the second I found the BIAC I knew I would "probably" need to get it, for all the reasons people have said: I dislike cleaning, footprint matters a lot to me, transferring is PITA, simplifying my brewing life is wonderful, etc.

I won't be brewing weekly, and in fact the ability to dump before primary has fully completed into secondary is great, as 90% of what I'll be brewing is sours and I'd love the extra fermentables for the bugs (work was in Brussels, the wife gets annoyed not having a cheap stream of various sours). I live in the South, but the BIAC will be living inside so temp control is really just getting something consistently +/- 5-10f of indoor temp.

So some questions: Any concerns I should worry about? What else do I actually need that doesn't come standard? The kegging line, obviously, but I'm thinking more like any valves you wish were standard that make life easier, from cleaning to fermenting...

Does the fermentation lid look like the standard conical? Just using a typical airlock or blowoff?

Also: has anyone made an easy switch from a Ranco to a PID? (I haven't done any wiring in years.)

How long was the wait time? After seeing this thing my collection of BugCounty and Dirty Dozen from ECY sitting in the fridge are screaming at me...

Effectively: it seems to good to be true, and though obviously not cheap definitely not a rip-off is the build quality is good and y'all that are using it are happy campers.

 

[Jimmy82]

So some questions: Any concerns I should worry about? What else do I actually need that doesn't come standard? The kegging line, obviously, but I'm thinking more like any valves you wish were standard that make life easier, from cleaning to fermenting...

I have the kegging line, and though it's a nice piece of equipment, I find it too slow for transfers (nothing to do with the design, I think it's just the flow rate through the ball lock that is the limiting factor). I've started to use 1/2" silicone tubing that I boil before transfering. I hook it on a 1/2" barbed triclover attached to my racking valve, and place the other end inside the keg. It has worked great for the past 3 brews...sanitary and quick, the only downside is that it's no longer a closed transfer. A couple things that I suggest would be some triclover blank caps (to block off empty ports, block the front port of a valve, etc), and you will also need a ball lock/pin lock post to attach to the lid. I also just ordered a 1.5" butterfly valve to try on my dump port..lately I've been having issues with the dump port clogging (I've been brewing some heavily hopped beers)

Does the fermentation lid look like the standard conical? Just using a typical airlock or blowoff?

The fermentation lid is shown in a bunch of my pictures on here. It has 2 1.5" triclover ports that you can attach whatever you want to. When I'm fermenting, I use a barbed fitting on one port with 1/2" silicone tubing submersed in a bucket of starsan for blowoff, the other port usually has a blank triclover plate. Once fermentation is done, you can install a ball lock/pin lock connection in place of the blowoff so that you can pressurize the vessel for transfers.

How long was the wait time? After seeing this thing my collection of BugCounty and Dirty Dozen from ECY sitting in the fridge are screaming at me...

Not sure of the current wait time. I think it varies, but if you email Nathan @ BREWHA I'm sure you'd get a quick response with the current wait time.

 

[cuda6pak]

Jimmy82 - isn't it hard to gravity transfer to the keg on the last 5 gallons using your silicon tube setup? Not sure of the diminsions of that port to the top of a corny keg.

Also, in regards to clogging the dump valve. I'm assuming you are using pellets, are you using the stainless hop basket with it or just throwing them in loose?

 

[Jimmy82]

Jimmy82 - isn't it hard to gravity transfer to the keg on the last 5 gallons using your silicon tube setup? Not sure of the diminsions of that port to the top of a corny keg.

I still do a pressurized transfer, but instead of feeding it into the keg through the post (with the keg transfer line), I put the larger 1/2" tubing inside of the keg. I can fill both kegs in 5 minutes or less.

Also, in regards to clogging the dump valve. I'm assuming you are using pellets, are you using the stainless hop basket with it or just throwing them in loose?

Yes, I'm using pellet hops. I don't use the stainless basket for hops..it would be good for leaf hops or other additons (I brewed a star anise brown, and I tossed the star anise in the basket so I could remove it after the boil). A 1.5" butterfly valve should fix this problem as it's a common valve size on lots of small craft breweries.

 

[cuda6pak]

Gotcha. I would probably go that route for transfers as well.

Curious how the butterfly valve would work out, sounds like an easy solution.

 

[Jimmy82]

Gotcha. I would probably go that route for transfers as well.

Curious how the butterfly valve would work out, sounds like an easy solution.

I'll likely be able to let you know in a few weeks. I've got a batch of IPA that I still have to dry hop before I'm able to test out the new valve. There's a bit of debate on which would be better as the ball valve has 1" of full opening, whereas the butterfly has 1.5" opening, but the "disc" blocks part of the opening in the center even when fully opened. All I know is many small craft breweries use the 1.5" butterfly and it's proven to work well for them...it also has the benefit of not having to be disassembled to be cleaned (you can throw the whole thing in a bucket of PBW and Starsan without disassembling).

 

[Jimmy82]

The 2 valves for comparison:

 

[MeetsCriteria]

I have used the basket for pellet hops and while some does get through enough doesn't IMO to use. When I remove the basket it acts as a bit of a strainer so I loose less wort that way. Then I dump trub (around 32-48 oz worth approx) just prior to pitching yeast.

I've also thought of whirlpooling with a hop back (such as the hop rocket) in line as it chills...though I haven't tried that yet...the options are endless!

 

[Jimmy82]

I have used the basket for pellet hops and while some does get through enough doesn't IMO to use. When I remove the basket it acts as a bit of a strainer so I loose less wort that way. Then I dump trub (around 32-48 oz worth approx) just prior to pitching yeast.

I've also thought of whirlpooling with a hop back (such as the hop rocket) in line as it chills...though I haven't tried that yet...the options are endless!

My worry with the basket was more about hop utilization. I brew a lot of hoppy beers - the IPA I have fermenting has about 26oz of pellet hops in it. When those pellet hops take on liquid, they absolutely explode. I figured throwing hops right into the BIAC would be my best option, and dump pre-fermentation, and again before dry hopping. I'll see how it works out on the next brew.

 

[MeetsCriteria]

I could see that...that is a lot of hops so I understand the concern!

I was torn because I wondered how much would settle in the cone / where the valve is and just sort of compact there to some degree. Have sort of wondered about the flow dynamics with the element sitting higher in the cone...I know it boils like mad but still wonder about the bottom of the cone...

What made me even think of it was that I didn't have a basket at first. When I chilled and dumped trub, the valve was sort of plugged from the very beginning.

After implementing the basket, that has not been an issue. So I was actually worried about utilization because of settling in the cone, and that led to me getting the basket! I think the 1.5" valve will probably help though. If you've not used butterfly valves, they don't have the same flow control as ball valves. As you say, they are widely used, but as you know, our volumes are smaller than the commercial setting...

I also like to FWH, so the basket is nice for that as well.

 

[Jimmy82]

I was torn because I wondered how much would settle in the cone / where the valve is and just sort of compact there to some degree. Have sort of wondered about the flow dynamics with the element sitting higher in the cone...I know it boils like mad but still wonder about the bottom of the cone...

What made me even think of it was that I didn't have a basket at first. When I chilled and dumped trub, the valve was sort of plugged from the very beginning.

I was concerned with this at first as well. After brewing a couple of batches I'm fairly confident that the hops aren't ending up down there during the boil (or if they are, it doesn't seem to affect the hop utilization). There isn't really any way for me to tell by looking at it, but based on the hop levels I'm getting on my beers I'm fairly confident it's not causing a problem.

I also like to FWH, so the basket is nice for that as well.

I never actually thought of using it for FWH. I FWH'd the beer I have on now, but ran the pump for 15 or 20 seconds to make sure everything was in suspension once the boil got going.

That's the thing with this setup - there are so many options on how to do things

 

[MeetsCriteria]

That's the thing with this setup - there are so many options on how to do things

That is very true. It's so versatile, it's amazing!

 

[cuda6pak]

It just sits in the cooler. There is a shield around it that prevents the element contacting the sides, so no scorching etc. This is what it looks like:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BDB4UG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I used that heater for a while to pre-heat my mash water which always worked great. It occurred to me I could use it as a cheap way to make a heater...and it works great.

The temp controller cuts the heat and pump on at the same time. Right now it comes on rarely (every few hours if that). In the height of winter it may be 50F in the basement so probably more often then.

It has occurred to me that you could get a drop in temp before an increase but I think the cooler maintains temp ok, probably better than the water jacket so this is probably not a problem. I have the throttle valve on the pump 1/4-1/2 closed in an effort to balance the system.

I've also considered using ice in the cooler as a cheap way to lager. Could probably have 2 x 1 gallon jugs, frozen and drop a new one in the cooler every morning while the other re-freezes. I'm sure this would work, but haven't implemented. Not quite as automated as a reef-chiller...but cheap, particularly if you make a lager only so often...

Just some thoughts.

Would that dual plug setup be too much for both an aquarium chiller and chugger pump all plugged into the same dual plug? Seems like the heat stick and pump would draw a lot less. Just trying to avoid having a pump run 24/7 instead of only as needed.

 

[MeetsCriteria]

Well, with an aquarium chiller (I don't have one), as I understand it, the pump runs continuously and you set the temp via the chiller. I'd recommend looking at the specs for the chiller you are considering. My understanding is that they designed to run at different flow rates and you match the pump (immersion pump) to the chiller.

That said, I don't see why you couldn't have it cut on and off by the temp controller. I would think that the chugger would work with some, but I haven't seriously looked at this option so can't speak educatedly on the topic. To me, the biggest question wold be how much power they draw when the cut on together, and whether the temp controller could take that.

Like you, I'm sure the compressor for the aquarium chiller draws more power than the heat stick.

 

[nackedei]

Well, I just bit the bullet and placed an order for a BIAC. Should ship out in about a week, and then arrive a week or so after that.

In other words, come mid-December I'll be peppering this board with questions!

 

[cuda6pak]

Picked up the glycol chiller today - it fit perfectly in my girlfriends Fiat 500

What size/how many gallons is that Glycol chiller? I do like the fact that glycol chillers have a pump and tank all in one convenient setup, but they are a bit more expensive than a comparable reef chiller which needs a separate supply tank for the source water. Any issues with running the pump constantly? Wonder how much that adds to the electric bill...

 

[Jimmy82]

What size/how many gallons is that Glycol chiller? I do like the fact that glycol chillers have a pump and tank all in one convenient setup, but they are a bit more expensive than a comparable reef chiller which needs a separate supply tank for the source water. Any issues with running the pump constantly? Wonder how much that adds to the electric bill...

I'm guessing it's about about 15 or 20 gallons. I got a really good deal on the glycol chiller, so it wasn't so bad. I haven't really noticed much of a difference with the electric bill - I don't think the pump uses much power TBH.

I haven't had any issues with the pump running constantly - that's how it's designed to work (this chiller is meant to service a trunk line for taps. In that situation, it constantly recirculates glycol through a trunk line that is wrapped in insulation with the tap lines). The bigger expense would be the power usage by the compressor, but as I mentioned, I haven't really noticed an increase in power.

 

[cuda6pak]

I'm guessing it's about about 15 or 20 gallons. I got a really good deal on the glycol chiller, so it wasn't so bad. I haven't really noticed much of a difference with the electric bill - I don't think the pump uses much power TBH.

I haven't had any issues with the pump running constantly - that's how it's designed to work (this chiller is meant to service a trunk line for taps. In that situation, it constantly recirculates glycol through a trunk line that is wrapped in insulation with the tap lines). The bigger expense would be the power usage by the compressor, but as I mentioned, I haven't really noticed an increase in power.

Ah, most of the glycol chillers in the 3-8 gallon range are around $1200 so that's pretty pricey. I did find a Teco TK-1000 reef chiller for $850 that has a built in heater, but I'd need to get another cooler and plumb the chiller to it, along with a pump so it seems to come out pretty similar in price, all while having a few extra things laying around. I wonder what the smallest glycol chiller you could get away with for the medium sized BIAC?

 

[Jimmy82]

Ah, most of the glycol chillers in the 3-8 gallon range are around $1200 so that's pretty pricey. I did find a Teco TK-1000 reef chiller for $850 that has a built in heater, but I'd need to get another cooler and plumb the chiller to it, along with a pump so it seems to come out pretty similar in price, all while having a few extra things laying around. I wonder what the smallest glycol chiller you could get away with for the medium sized BIAC?

Now you have me wondering on the actual capacity of the glycol chiller. It may be a bit smaller than I guessed - hadn't actually measured it.

I don't think you need much as it's constantly circulating at ferm temp (at least if you use it the way I am). You don't see a huge difference in the input vs output temp of the liquid coming out of the jacket.

 

[cuda6pak]

Now you have me wondering on the actual capacity of the glycol chiller. It may be a bit smaller than I guessed - hadn't actually measured it.

I don't think you need much as it's constantly circulating at ferm temp (at least if you use it the way I am). You don't see a huge difference in the input vs output temp of the liquid coming out of the jacket.

My only concern would be making sure there is enough liquid in the tank to fill the jacketed coils and still have a gallon or two in the glycol reservoir. There are some pretty small 2-3 gallon glycol chillers but the price goes up pretty good from there.

I think I am leaning towards this 7 gallon glycol chiller - http://rapidswholesale.com/glycol-chiller-7-gallon.html I like having the pump, reservoir and cooling unit all in one. Then I will just run an in-line reef heater (http://www.marinedepot.com/Hydor_ET...rium_Heaters-Hydor_USA-HD08103-FIHTIH-vi.html). I can upgrade the Ranco ETC to a dual stage so during fermentaiton I can plug the in-line heater to the heat side and have the compressor plugged into the cold side for full closed loop control with the minimal amount of components. This will be reading the beer temp as well instead of fluid through the coils, but I'm sure that's basically splitting hairs. The system would be constantly circulating.

My other idea was to run a TECO TK-1000 reef chiller that has a built-in heater (http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/teco-tank-tk-1000-aquarium-chiller) and purchase a square or round 10 gallon cooler and separate pump. But I like the compactness of having it all in one unit, plus when you add up the $900 reef chiller with a spare pump, spare cooler, hoses to/from, valves, etc it gets pretty damn close to the glycol chiller in price. The TK-500 may be able to handle it but I don't want to wonder if I can maintain crash cool temps in the middle of summer.


edit: Referencing an earlier post, the coils hold approximately 5 gallons of water, so I wonder if a 7 gallon glycol chiller would be enough...

 

[Jimmy82]

My only concern would be making sure there is enough liquid in the tank to fill the jacketed coils and still have a gallon or two in the glycol reservoir. There are some pretty small 2-3 gallon glycol chillers but the price goes up pretty good from there.

I think I am leaning towards this 7 gallon glycol chiller - http://rapidswholesale.com/glycol-chiller-7-gallon.html I like having the pump, reservoir and cooling unit all in one. Then I will just run an in-line reef heater (http://www.marinedepot.com/Hydor_ET...rium_Heaters-Hydor_USA-HD08103-FIHTIH-vi.html). I can upgrade the Ranco ETC to a dual stage so during fermentaiton I can plug the in-line heater to the heat side and have the compressor plugged into the cold side for full closed loop control with the minimal amount of components. This will be reading the beer temp as well instead of fluid through the coils, but I'm sure that's basically splitting hairs. The system would be constantly circulating.

My other idea was to run a TECO TK-1000 reef chiller that has a built-in heater (http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/teco-tank-tk-1000-aquarium-chiller) and purchase a square or round 10 gallon cooler and separate pump. But I like the compactness of having it all in one unit, plus when you add up the $900 reef chiller with a spare pump, spare cooler, hoses to/from, valves, etc it gets pretty damn close to the glycol chiller in price. The TK-500 may be able to handle it but I don't want to wonder if I can maintain crash cool temps in the middle of summer.


edit: Referencing an earlier post, the coils hold approximately 5 gallons of water, so I wonder if a 7 gallon glycol chiller would be enough...

You don't need a reservoir larger than the jacket because you fill the jacket, plus the reservoir.

Following my boil, I do the following:

1)Connect the solenoid to the input of the jacket, and connect tap water to chill hot wort. I let the tap water chill to about 80*F and the solenoid shuts off flow at that point.
2)Disconnect solenoid and tap water (jacket is full at this point) and connect glycol chiller to input & output of the jacket. This means that the glycol chiller is always full, and the jacket is full after doing the large portion of chilling with tap water.
3)Turn the glycol chiller on and continue chilling to fermentation temp from there.

 

[cuda6pak]

You don't need a reservoir larger than the jacket because you fill the jacket, plus the reservoir.

Following my boil, I do the following:

1)Connect the solenoid to the input of the jacket, and connect tap water to chill hot wort. I let the tap water chill to about 80*F and the solenoid shuts off flow at that point.
2)Disconnect solenoid and tap water (jacket is full at this point) and connect glycol chiller to input & output of the jacket. This means that the glycol chiller is always full, and the jacket is full after doing the large portion of chilling with tap water.
3)Turn the glycol chiller on and continue chilling to fermentation temp from there.

Hadn't thought about that. I wonder if a 2gallon glycol chiller would work? There's a few around $300-400 cheaper than the 7 gallon. Nathan mentioned the coils in the jacket only hold around 8L or 2 gallons of water.