3 failed saison attempts, but im not giving up.

[rockdemon]

Saisons can be quite sour post fermentation but this will fade over time.
It isn't a beer to be drunk too young.

will if fade during fermentation or in the bottles?

I tried a saison dupont bottle in florida and i was struck by the big difference between that one and the ones we have here in sweden. Here they have alot of funky nose and some hops and pepper in the flavor. There it tasted quite sour. dont know why really.

 

[AnthonyUK]

I've made Saisons with Belle Saison yeast that have been pretty much undrinkable when first bottled but after 2-3 months are superb. The sourness becomes citrussy freshness and the thinness fills out nicely.
The Dupont I've had in UK matches your experience in Sweden.

 

[rockdemon]

I've made Saisons with Belle Saison yeast that have been pretty much undrinkable when first bottled but after 2-3 months are superb. The sourness becomes citrussy freshness and the thinness fills out nicely.
The Dupont I've had in UK matches your experience in Sweden.

I have belle saison at home but Ive never used it. Is it any good? Ive seen that alot of people put black pepper in their saisons, that sounds very interresting, have you ever tried that?

 

[snow16]

+1 on all of this. There's some great advice here.

With proper handling, you should have no issues getting beautiful spice/phenol flavors from that yeast. Get your recipe and yeast handling down before you consider adding spices. You'll probably find that you don't need them!

Good luck!

 

[AnthonyUK]

I'm a bit of a traditionalist and agree with snow16. I've not tried a Saison with spice/pepper additions yet where I thought it added anything I liked but the great thing with homebrewing is you can tailor your recipe to your own tastes.

 

[m00ps]

I have belle saison at home but Ive never used it. Is it any good? Ive seen that alot of people put black pepper in their saisons, that sounds very interresting, have you ever tried that?

I did a lemon pepper saison which turned otu very well. The pepper and lemon was just barely detectable in regards to how it meshed with the yeast character. I cant taste either anymore

 

[Kiichi]

I think these things also strongly depent on what spice you are using. If I were to add pepper to a saison I would definetly go for tellicherry pepper since it is complex, mellower, and has an earthy quality that just plays into saisons.

That playing into things also inspired me to do a green tea and lemon (touch of lime until I can get yuzu) saison at session strength. Fourth batch is working and I am playing into the citrus notes of 3711 originally and now I am trying Belle Saison, while the green tea picks up the spice notes and expands them greatly to form the base. Results in a session for the folks who don´t like beer because of that idea I recon.

 

[joshesmusica]

Saisons can be quite sour post fermentation but this will fade over time.
It isn't a beer to be drunk too young.

I know this isn't the same yeast as is being discussed here, but my wife and I just bottled a Licorice Saison (her idea, Norwegians love their licorice) brewed with Mangrove Jack's Belgian Ale yeast. It's been in the primary for nearly 6 weeks (5 weeks, 5 days), and it had a little bit of a sour twang to it. On their website it says it's "highly attenuative." Hell yeah it is! 1.000 FG! My first thought was infection, but after another identical reading a week later, and absolutely no sign of infection at all, I'm guessing it's probably a combination of us missing mash temps a bit, and that this strain just eats the hell out of everything.

For this one, we didn't get crazy with the ferment temps because we wanted to not overpower the licorice. She wants to use it for a tank 7 clone next, so I'll likely ramp the temps this go-round.

 

[rockdemon]

I know this isn't the same yeast as is being discussed here, but my wife and I just bottled a Licorice Saison (her idea, Norwegians love their licorice) brewed with Mangrove Jack's Belgian Ale yeast. It's been in the primary for nearly 6 weeks (5 weeks, 5 days), and it had a little bit of a sour twang to it. On their website it says it's "highly attenuative." Hell yeah it is! 1.000 FG! My first thought was infection, but after another identical reading a week later, and absolutely no sign of infection at all, I'm guessing it's probably a combination of us missing mash temps a bit, and that this strain just eats the hell out of everything.

For this one, we didn't get crazy with the ferment temps because we wanted to not overpower the licorice. She wants to use it for a tank 7 clone next, so I'll likely ramp the temps this go-round.

Did the soureness dissapear with time? Ive heard some people say that belle saison also gives som sour taste. Is there somewy to get around that? I really dont like when the beer gets a bit sour when its not supposed to be a sour...

 

[Kiichi]

I´d like to know that too. I just did my green tea and citrus session with it, cold crashing right now, instead of 3711. Now, sourness would not hurt here and I won´t even notice I recon cause of the citrus. But that would be good to know.

Planning on using it to produce a cider too where an extra tart note might be nice.

Meanwhile I just popped the first bottle of a saison with WLP585 and THAT one definetly brings tart fruit. Could think there was some fruity brett in there, but supposedly not.

 

[joshesmusica]

I think it's just young. Unfortunately I can't really let you know until a couple of months from now. We just bottled it on Friday, after it was in primary for over 5 weeks.

I will update at that time though.

 

[BigMack]

I have heard that some people have had success with slightly underpitching their yeast on some belgian beers to get a nice "belgiany" taste and smell. I might give that a try.

I also agree that even warmer temps will probably help get you there as well.

 

[joshesmusica]

Did the soureness dissapear with time? Ive heard some people say that belle saison also gives som sour taste. Is there somewy to get around that? I really dont like when the beer gets a bit sour when its not supposed to be a sour...

Weird, I thought I replied to this...

It was just bottled on Friday, so it will still be a month or so before we pop open the first one.

I think that the main way to get around this is to just realize that the a lot of the saison strains are doing this, but it's aging out. So just knowing from the get-go that you'll have to let them age will likely help ease the worries.

On the other hand, it's likely some by-product of the yeast, though I honestly don't know what it would be, or at what stage it comes from. I suppose that it could potentially be diacetyl (?) and because of the high ferment temps to begin with that it's hard to get a true diacetyl rest. Just some sort of speculation going on there though. It could very well be some other sort of ester that is also eventually aging out.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

I would bet the sourness is some sort of acetaldehyde sour-green-apple sort of flavor. At least thats how it makes sense to me that it conditions out really quickly.

 

[rockdemon]

Weird, I thought I replied to this...

It was just bottled on Friday, so it will still be a month or so before we pop open the first one.

I think that the main way to get around this is to just realize that the a lot of the saison strains are doing this, but it's aging out. So just knowing from the get-go that you'll have to let them age will likely help ease the worries.

On the other hand, it's likely some by-product of the yeast, though I honestly don't know what it would be, or at what stage it comes from. I suppose that it could potentially be diacetyl (?) and because of the high ferment temps to begin with that it's hard to get a true diacetyl rest. Just some sort of speculation going on there though. It could very well be some other sort of ester that is also eventually aging out.

Yesterday I bottled the saison. I tasted the sample after reading OG, it was at 1007 so abit high but i didnt ferment it hot enough.
The horrible thing now is that instantly when i opened the lid of the fermentor it smelled like som sort of cleaning alcohol or really bad moonshine.

the soureness was gone but instead this new thing had happened. I had cleaned the secondary carboy very thoroughly(dont know how to spell that) with chlorine bleach and rinsed it like 10 times or more and then had starsan in it for approx 10h.

Dont know what happened, its a really powerful smell. almost stings the eyes. a bit like oven clean solution...

 

[joshesmusica]

Yesterday I bottled the saison. I tasted the sample after reading OG, it was at 1007 so abit high but i didnt ferment it hot enough.
The horrible thing now is that instantly when i opened the lid of the fermentor it smelled like som sort of cleaning alcohol or really bad moonshine.

the soureness was gone but instead this new thing had happened. I had cleaned the secondary carboy very thoroughly(dont know how to spell that) with chlorine bleach and rinsed it like 10 times or more and then had starsan in it for approx 10h.

Dont know what happened, its a really powerful smell. almost stings the eyes. a bit like oven clean solution...

Was this a constant, or was it just right when you opened it? Did you taste the gravity sample?

 

[AnthonyUK]

I had cleaned the secondary carboy very thoroughly(dont know how to spell that) with chlorine bleach and rinsed it like 10 times or more and then had starsan in it for approx 10h.

Why take the risk of chlorine contamination if you are using Starsan?
Contact time of 1 minute is enough and you risk leaving slimy calcium phosphate deposits with extended contact if your dilution water is not RO or distilled.

For the Saison I would suggest leaving it for at least a month in the bottle/keg before dumping it.

 

[rockdemon]

Was this a constant, or was it just right when you opened it? Did you taste the gravity sample?

I could smell it throughout the bottling session. Yeah i tasted it. The smell was the issue, it didnt taste like it smelled but it didnt taste good either. Ill try a bottle in 2-3 weeks and see the progress

 

[rockdemon]

Why take the risk of chlorine contamination if you are using Starsan?
Contact time of 1 minute is enough and you risk leaving slimy calcium phosphate deposits with extended contact if your dilution water is not RO or distilled.

For the Saison I would suggest leaving it for at least a month in the bottle/keg before dumping it.

i used chlorine since im worried that the off flavor that Ive been getting is from some sort of infection. Ive always used starsan but i have still had 3 infected batches so i wanted to be sure that no bacteria could be in my fermenter...

 

[m00ps]

This thread makes me terribly depressed. Ive found saisons to be one of the most forgiving styles. I hope you can get your approach straightened out

I would suggest using a different yeast. Saisons are the msot yeast driven style I can think of. I make saisons non-stop and FWIW, the only bad one I made was from trying to step up dupont dregs (though ive heard of others having success). Im guessing maybe your dregs you started with were just not healthy at all...try getting an actual yeast from a manufacturer

 

[rockdemon]

This thread makes me terribly depressed. Ive found saisons to be one of the most forgiving styles. I hope you can get your approach straightened out

I would suggest using a different yeast. Saisons are the msot yeast driven style I can think of. I make saisons non-stop and FWIW, the only bad one I made was from trying to step up dupont dregs (though ive heard of others having success). Im guessing maybe your dregs you started with were just not healthy at all...try getting an actual yeast from a manufacturer

then you can imagine how depressing it is for me to fail over and over again.

Now that i have a way of controlling temperature, how would you suggest i handle the fermentation process? At what temp do i pitch? Should i just go warm right away >90F? or slowly let it rise over a couple of days? I want to get that funky saison dupont smell and those lovely pepper notes...

 

[m00ps]

My fermentation profile, for every saison strain I have, is:
- pitch a bit below 70
- insulate fermentor with a heavy winter jacket
- free rise 36-48hrs
- stick in rope tub w/ aquarium heater set to ~92F
- leave it there for 1 week at least
- remove and let cool to room temp 2-3 days before packaging

 

[rockdemon]

My fermentation profile, for every saison strain I have, is:
- pitch a bit below 70
- insulate fermentor with a heavy winter jacket
- free rise 36-48hrs
- stick in rope tub w/ aquarium heater set to ~92F
- leave it there for 1 week at least
- remove and let cool to room temp 2-3 days before packaging

Ill try that on my next attempt in a few weeks. but, do you package the beer within 2 weeks from brewday? If ive hit a low g reading and it has stopped dropping, can i bottle it then or is it better to wait longer? My IPAs and similar i bottle after about 2 weeks but my (low abv)belgians i leave in the fermentor for 3-4 weeks, dont really know why i do that actually. I assume that the high temperature fermentation gets the job done quickly and after that theres no reason to wait anymore...?

 

[m00ps]

it depends on hwo I am packaging it. If im bottling, I like to go 3 weeks, but kegs ill sometimes use as a purged secondary and bottle in 2 weeks or so. But yeah, I have found that the high temps gets them to FG by as little as day 7 though.

All of my bottled saisons are drinkable less than 1 month from brew day though

 

[rockdemon]

it depends on hwo I am packaging it. If im bottling, I like to go 3 weeks, but kegs ill sometimes use as a purged secondary and bottle in 2 weeks or so. But yeah, I have found that the high temps gets them to FG by as little as day 7 though.

All of my bottled saisons are drinkable less than 1 month from brew day though

New attempt tomorrow. pilsner, spelt malt(9%) and sugar (9%). an addition of styrian at 60 and one at 30. no late addition this time. Im going to use more yeast than last time and use your fermentation schedule.

 

[Kiichi]

Just noticed that it seems that I mentioned something from this, but never posted the link. Shame on me if so. It´s something saison master Shaun Hill of Hill Farmstead wrote a long time ago.

Scroll down to brewmaster´s notes for great guidelines. The rest is fun history. http://archive.is/VkRos

 

[m00ps]

New attempt tomorrow. pilsner, spelt malt(9%) and sugar (9%). an addition of styrian at 60 and one at 30. no late addition this time. Im going to use more yeast than last time and use your fermentation schedule.

good luck! Hope it finally works out for you. Ive done about everything except a spelt saison. Ive wanted to make a saison with ~30% spelt to see what it actually tastes like but havent been able to get my hands on any. Feels stupid to place an order from a random site just for a few lbs of spelt. Whered you get your from?

 

[Kiichi]

good luck! Hope it finally works out for you. Ive done about everything except a spelt saison. Ive wanted to make a saison with ~30% spelt to see what it actually tastes like but havent been able to get my hands on any. Feels stupid to place an order from a random site just for a few lbs of spelt. Whered you get your from?

I don´t know how it is where you are from, but here, in Sweden, I can go to the local bio / health / veggy store and get spelt and all manner of grains. Kind of fun and needs to be explored by me more.

 

[rockdemon]

good luck! Hope it finally works out for you. Ive done about everything except a spelt saison. Ive wanted to make a saison with ~30% spelt to see what it actually tastes like but havent been able to get my hands on any. Feels stupid to place an order from a random site just for a few lbs of spelt. Whered you get your from?

A swedish online store...i think the brand is Best Malz. Alot of american supliers seem to have the same...
Ive tried it before but havent really got any idea of what it tastes like. If this recipe works out ill probably use more next time...