3 failed saison attempts, but im not giving up.

[rockdemon]

Ever since I started brewing 2 years ago i cannot get belgian beers right. I dont know what im doing wrong, Im trying to change something in my prodcedure everytime but nada. My stouts and amercain pale ales/IPAs turn out great thou.

The only time I managed to get some of that belgian flavor/aroma was when i used the yeast from a bunch of fresh bottles of St. Bernardus Pater 6. But Ive never managed to get there with wyeast/whitelabs or dry yeasts.

At the moment im propragating yeast from Saison Dupont Biologique and it seems to be going great so far.
Im not aiming for a Saison Dupont clone, I just think itd be too hard to get there so instead i want to make a more hoppy(not bitter) Saison.
Im thinking about spices, but dont know which ones or how much to use. Pepper sounds interresting.
Im brewing on thursday and this is the recipe so far.

HOME BREW RECIPE:
Title: Saison D'emon

Brew Method: BIAB
Style Name: Saison
Boil Time: 90 min
Batch Size: 2.6 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 4 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.038
Efficiency: 75% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.059
Final Gravity: 1.007
ABV (standard): 6.73%
IBU (tinseth): 52.2
SRM (morey): 3.22

FERMENTABLES:
4.4 lb - Belgian - Pilsner (84.6%)
0.45 lb - Corn Sugar - Dextrose (8.7%)
0.35 lb - German - Wheat Malt (6.7%)

HOPS:
0.7 oz - Brewer's Gold, Type: Pellet, AA: 5, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 28.46
0.7 oz - Hallertau Hersbrucker, Type: Pellet, AA: 4, Use: Boil for 30 min, IBU: 17.5
0.7 oz - Styrian Goldings, Type: Pellet, AA: 5.5, Use: Boil for 5 min, IBU: 6.24
0.7 oz - Styrian Goldings, Type: Pellet, AA: 5.5, Use: Boil for 0 min

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 149 F, Time: 90 min, Amount: 10.6 qt, pre warmed to 70c
2) Sparge, Temp: 169 F, Time: 5 min, Amount: 6.3 qt, 76

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
0.2 oz - irish moss, Time: 15 min, Type: Fining, Use: Boil

Ive got the idea for the hops(dont know about the hop schedule though) from De Rankes wonderful Saison De Dottignies which is one of my favourite saisons.

Anyone here got any tips or ideas? I cannot really ferment very high this time of year. After the initial raise in temperature(65F-78 the first days usually) caused by the yeast activity itll probably stay at 73F the rest of fermentation.

 

[AnthonyUK]

I can't really see much wrong with the recipe but I can suggest the Farmhouse Ales book if you haven't already read it.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0937381845/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[wizzzard]

try this FERMENTABLES:
4.4 lb - Belgian - Pilsner (84.6%)
0.45 lb - Corn Sugar - Dextrose (8.7%)
0.35 lb - German - Wheat Malt (6.7%)
instead use..
6lb belgian
1.5 wheat cracked well, full mash. teabags dont work well with wheat

ditch the sugar.

 

[joshesmusica]

Your fermentables are likely not the culprit. You need to have your fermenter somewhere that it can raise up into at least the upper 70s, but lower 80s will likely be even better. And then find some way to keep it up there until fermentation is complete. Everything else about your techniques and recipe and all that looks pretty good.

Another idea could be to slightly underpitch. This will produce slightly more esters. I would also aim for pitching more at 67-68 and see if that helps.

 

[unclebrazzie]

Ditch the sugar, aye. Dupont yeast should rip right through all those fermentables so you really don't need the extra sugar.
You're mashing low enough so your only concern would be fermentation temp.

Wheat or wheat malt? Your recipe lists the latter, which will provide fermentables, a bit of haze and some head retention.
Wizzzard suggests raw wheat, which will provide some wheat twang, more haze and less fermentables. Depends on where you want to go.

Dupont is a finicky fickle fellar, and without temp control, it's likely to doze off before you reach your target grav. Which, incidentally is quite high for a saison: I'd be aiming toward 1.002, 1.004 at the most. Not sure about Saison de Dottigny's FG, but I'm betting it's lower than 1.007. If you do want the beer to end there, all the more reason to ditch the sugar.

Dupont needs to be babysat. Let it rise the first few days, then increment as far as you can (I've heard stories about 32°C at the brewery, not sure if they're not just fisherman's tales though). Rouse the yeast if it slows down. Prepare for a long primary (as in "as long as it takes to finish, possibly weeks").

Spices: pepper is good in a saison as it accenuates the yeast flavours. About 20 cracked black peppercorns in 5 gal will give a subtle note. Use other peppers once your recipe and method stabilise. Grains of paradise are a classic, but fennel would be nice too (when added sparingly).

 

[joyceman]

I did a saison with Dupont in the summer. Had this grainbill:

7.0 lb Pilsner (DE)
1.5 lb Flaked Rye
1.0 lb Flaked Oats
1.0 lb Unmalted Wheat

It finished at 1.000 and tastes bone dry. It has a very spicy/peppery taste from just the yeast (& probably the rye). I pitched at 75 and kept it in my basement at high 60s for 2 days. Then moved it to mid 70s the remainder of the ferm.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

One thing to keep in mind about a good saison and the use of spices.

First get the fermentation temps/pitching correct. If you hit that really high ferment temps with a proper pitch rate and can keep the ferment nice and high, you will get a lot of the peppery/spice phenol without using actual spices. Its really easy for spice additions to get out of hand.

My go to yeast is Belle Saison now which is generally accepted as a milder saison than 3711 or 3724. Though I've had a lot of sucess with fermenting in the 80-87 range and got plent of spicy peppery phenols with lemon/citrus/apricot esters. Not trying to sell you on Belle Saison but ferment temps play a huge role on how a saison comes out.

If you have an opaque fermentation vessel (stainless steel, white plastic bucket for example) you would be surprised how much a naked light bulb placed within an inch or two of the outer skin of the fermenter will drive temps up. Pitch at 70F (10% underpitch with a starter, make sure they are fresh, healthy, and vigorous), I'll have lag time as little as 4 hours, at the 24 hour mark I will sit at 85-87F, by 96 hours fermentation will tail off, by the 9 day mark, I shut off the light. Give it another 9ish days at ambient temp (67ish). Worked fantastic in a honey saison (1.062, finished sub 1.004), worked amazing in a 1.090 Belgian Dark Strong Ale (went to 1.010 in 60 hours post pitch and kept going after that) and I am afraid I am going to drink all 5 gallons out of the fermenter force carbonating in plastic bottles.

There are plenty of award winning saisons out there that use spices so theres plenty of precedence for making an amazing saison with spice additions. Once you get a base saison down without spices, then you can work on elevating the recipe with spice tinctures (easier to control than boil additions), think of it like a dish of food you can keep adding pepper in the pot while the sauce is boiling but once the sauce is fully reduced you find out you added too much pepper, its much easier to finish the sauce then season to taste. Elevating is the best adjective to use in this case. You aren't purely trying to make it "better" but just improving little things to fill out the recipe "So this sample with X amount of black pepper tincture is delicious, but I wonder if a small amount of ginger would fill it out and make it taste more complete".

Edit: Also I am rarely one to use the "buy this and itll fix your problem" argument. But a stainless fermenter with a thermowell was by far one of my biggest upgrades to my brewery. Next is temp control, but, having a completely opaque fermenter, with a temp probe near the center of the mass allows much more accurate readings. As well since its completely 100% opaque and no light can get in (accept for a very very very tiny amount through the top air lock) I can throw a big light bulb right up against the side and blast it with a heat source.

 

[m00ps]

73F is not high enough for saisons IMO. Some strains (not dupont usually though) will finish, but the best yeast performance in terms of attenuation and flavor profile is at least in the 80s. Stable temperature once the top point is reached is also importnat. I would insulated the fermentor to trap in heat from fermentation

I think the grain bill is fine, but I do like having a decent amount of wheat or rye in all my saisons. The rye especially lends itself to spicy saison yeast character.

as for spices, Ive used coriander, black pepper, and grains of paradise with success in saisons. Id use 1oz for coriander and 4-5g of pepper or grains of paradise, all at flameout for a subtle spice.

but I would omit spices if you havent dialed in your belgian beer brewing yet. It can be frustrating. Took me more than a year for me to be satisfied with my dubbels/tripels. Saisons are easier IME, but it may have something to do with your water profile

 

[jeepman2889]

i would simplify your grain bill, i brew a really good saison, with the majority of the grain bill being pilsner malt, and 10 percent being caravienne. with saaz hops. often with a saison, simple is the best way to go.

 

[rockdemon]

try this FERMENTABLES:
4.4 lb - Belgian - Pilsner (84.6%)
0.45 lb - Corn Sugar - Dextrose (8.7%)
0.35 lb - German - Wheat Malt (6.7%)
instead use..
6lb belgian
1.5 wheat cracked well, full mash. teabags dont work well with wheat

ditch the sugar.

Yeah ill ditch the sugar. About the wheat malt. I only have that and something called spelt.

 

[rockdemon]

Thanks for all the answers! Im ditching thr sugar. Im probably underpitching. Dont really know. Ill wrap the fermenter in a camping sledping mat and try to keep it warm for a month and then see what has happened...

 

[wizzzard]

Spelt is a distant genetic relative to wheat, and imparts a dry, tart, and earthy character and aroma. Use up to 40% in the mash.

 

[unclebrazzie]

Ill wrap the fermenter in a camping sledping mat and try to keep it warm for a month and then see what has happened...

Hm. While the risk of autolysis is small on a homerbewing scale, I'd be reluctant to leave any beer in primary (i.e. on the yeast cake) for that long.
Plus, your risk is that the yeast falls asleep after a week or so, and won't wake again if you leave it alone for a month.

Keep an eye on it on the airlock, take a reading when it stops, shake/rouse if it's too high to be done, repeat until it is, and then go to secondary. Good saison needs a secondary. And a long time in the bottle

 

[rockdemon]

One thing to keep in mind about a good saison and the use of spices.

First get the fermentation temps/pitching correct. If you hit that really high ferment temps with a proper pitch rate and can keep the ferment nice and high, you will get a lot of the peppery/spice phenol without using actual spices. Its really easy for spice additions to get out of hand.

My go to yeast is Belle Saison now which is generally accepted as a milder saison than 3711 or 3724. Though I've had a lot of sucess with fermenting in the 80-87 range and got plent of spicy peppery phenols with lemon/citrus/apricot esters. Not trying to sell you on Belle Saison but ferment temps play a huge role on how a saison comes out.

If you have an opaque fermentation vessel (stainless steel, white plastic bucket for example) you would be surprised how much a naked light bulb placed within an inch or two of the outer skin of the fermenter will drive temps up. Pitch at 70F (10% underpitch with a starter, make sure they are fresh, healthy, and vigorous), I'll have lag time as little as 4 hours, at the 24 hour mark I will sit at 85-87F, by 96 hours fermentation will tail off, by the 9 day mark, I shut off the light. Give it another 9ish days at ambient temp (67ish). Worked fantastic in a honey saison (1.062, finished sub 1.004), worked amazing in a 1.090 Belgian Dark Strong Ale (went to 1.010 in 60 hours post pitch and kept going after that) and I am afraid I am going to drink all 5 gallons out of the fermenter force carbonating in plastic bottles.

There are plenty of award winning saisons out there that use spices so theres plenty of precedence for making an amazing saison with spice additions. Once you get a base saison down without spices, then you can work on elevating the recipe with spice tinctures (easier to control than boil additions), think of it like a dish of food you can keep adding pepper in the pot while the sauce is boiling but once the sauce is fully reduced you find out you added too much pepper, its much easier to finish the sauce then season to taste. Elevating is the best adjective to use in this case. You aren't purely trying to make it "better" but just improving little things to fill out the recipe "So this sample with X amount of black pepper tincture is delicious, but I wonder if a small amount of ginger would fill it out and make it taste more complete".

Edit: Also I am rarely one to use the "buy this and itll fix your problem" argument. But a stainless fermenter with a thermowell was by far one of my biggest upgrades to my brewery. Next is temp control, but, having a completely opaque fermenter, with a temp probe near the center of the mass allows much more accurate readings. As well since its completely 100% opaque and no light can get in (accept for a very very very tiny amount through the top air lock) I can throw a big light bulb right up against the side and blast it with a heat source.

Yeah i really have to find a way to keep temperature up after the initial fermentation. The light bulb idea is very interresting!

My last two brews went really bad. And a thing they both had in common wa that the airlock activity stopped after like 2 days. When i started brewing i had the problem with overattenuating. My belgian dubbel was supposed to be aroun 8-9% but ended up at like 12-13%.

Ive put the bucket in my kitchen, its my warmest room at the moment until my landlord puts on the heat in the house. I wrapped the bucket in a towel and a camping sleeping mat. I have no idea whatsoever about how much yeast i used. I took bottom dregs from two .75L bottles and first made a .3L starter, waited 2 days and added .5L more wort and then waited two more days and then used it. Im pretty sure its underpitched ALOT. Airlock activity seems stable since the morning after. This is going to be interresting.

 

[rockdemon]

Spelt is a distant genetic relative to wheat, and imparts a dry, tart, and earthy character and aroma. Use up to 40% in the mash.

aah, thanks. heva to use it next time! sounds like a good thing in a saison!

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Yeah i really have to find a way to keep temperature up after the initial fermentation. The light bulb idea is very interresting!

My last two brews went really bad. And a thing they both had in common wa that the airlock activity stopped after like 2 days. When i started brewing i had the problem with overattenuating. My belgian dubbel was supposed to be aroun 8-9% but ended up at like 12-13%.

Ive put the bucket in my kitchen, its my warmest room at the moment until my landlord puts on the heat in the house. I wrapped the bucket in a towel and a camping sleeping mat. I have no idea whatsoever about how much yeast i used. I took bottom dregs from two .75L bottles and first made a .3L starter, waited 2 days and added .5L more wort and then waited two more days and then used it. Im pretty sure its underpitched ALOT. Airlock activity seems stable since the morning after. This is going to be interresting.

Do you happen to have any tall boxes/rubbermaid bins that could fit a fermenter with a little bit of space to the side? If you don't have an opaque fermenter I saw this trick. Take your fermenter put it in the bin and insulate the outside. Take a lightbulb/lamp fixture and a small paint can (in the couple pint range, you don't need a gallon paint can). Cut a hole in the top of the paint can and paint the inside black (if it isnt already very darkly colored inside). You can then take your light fixture/lamp deal and put the light bulb in through the hole in the can lid. Put the paint can itself over the lightbulb/lid combo.

This once placed inside the insulated container with your fermenter should actually produce a good amount of radiant heat. The paint can will probably become rocket hot (burn your finger hot).

Or also, I've tried this though its slightly more finnicky. Get a big bucket (the kind you put a keg in at a college party). Fill it with very hot water (since we are trying to keep the temp up, and grab an aquarium heater from a pet store (biggest one you can get). Once you place your fermenter in that, your temps will rocket up when theres a lot of yeast activity. Though the light bulb against the outside of the skin of the fermenter seems to work better, the hot water and aquarium heater are more finnicky and have a hard time keeping 'really' high temps. I personally have a 6 gallon SS Brewtech bucket and the thermowell + stainless steel material makes for a high degree of heat transfer and temp control "oh temp is getting a tiny bit high, lets back off the light bulb a quarter inch".

For now, since I am getting to the same situation soon, start brewing hybrid/steam beers. 1007 German Ale yeast for example. My basement stays around 55F in the winter so I am trying to get another saison and another dubbel/dark strong/golden ale in the books before its too cold.

 

[rockdemon]

Do you happen to have any tall boxes/rubbermaid bins that could fit a fermenter with a little bit of space to the side? If you don't have an opaque fermenter I saw this trick. Take your fermenter put it in the bin and insulate the outside. Take a lightbulb/lamp fixture and a small paint can (in the couple pint range, you don't need a gallon paint can). Cut a hole in the top of the paint can and paint the inside black (if it isnt already very darkly colored inside). You can then take your light fixture/lamp deal and put the light bulb in through the hole in the can lid. Put the paint can itself over the lightbulb/lid combo.

This once placed inside the insulated container with your fermenter should actually produce a good amount of radiant heat. The paint can will probably become rocket hot (burn your finger hot).

Or also, I've tried this though its slightly more finnicky. Get a big bucket (the kind you put a keg in at a college party). Fill it with very hot water (since we are trying to keep the temp up, and grab an aquarium heater from a pet store (biggest one you can get). Once you place your fermenter in that, your temps will rocket up when theres a lot of yeast activity. Though the light bulb against the outside of the skin of the fermenter seems to work better, the hot water and aquarium heater are more finnicky and have a hard time keeping 'really' high temps. I personally have a 6 gallon SS Brewtech bucket and the thermowell + stainless steel material makes for a high degree of heat transfer and temp control "oh temp is getting a tiny bit high, lets back off the light bulb a quarter inch".

For now, since I am getting to the same situation soon, start brewing hybrid/steam beers. 1007 German Ale yeast for example. My basement stays around 55F in the winter so I am trying to get another saison and another dubbel/dark strong/golden ale in the books before its too cold.

Thanks for the tips!
Yeah its the worst season to brew a saison but I did it anyway, for me the best time is in winter, i can just have the fermentation bucket close to a radiator to keep the heat up. Ive stopped brewing beers in summertime, theres just too many fruitflies!
Ive had good n steady airlock activity the first days, and its been smelling good, but yesterday that awful sulphur smell is there. Ill just wait it out. Im keeping it at 24-25 degrees C. How long does it usually take to get rid of the sulphur smell? Its happened to me before and i dont really understand where it comes from. its been with different yeasts.

 

[rockdemon]

Hm. While the risk of autolysis is small on a homerbewing scale, I'd be reluctant to leave any beer in primary (i.e. on the yeast cake) for that long.
Plus, your risk is that the yeast falls asleep after a week or so, and won't wake again if you leave it alone for a month.

Keep an eye on it on the airlock, take a reading when it stops, shake/rouse if it's too high to be done, repeat until it is, and then go to secondary. Good saison needs a secondary. And a long time in the bottle

Do you think one month is too long in primary? I usually dont do secondary fermentation due to the risk of infection. Maybe i should transfer it next week or so, Id like to save some yeast aswell...

 

[m00ps]

Do you think one month is too long in primary? I usually dont do secondary fermentation due to the risk of infection. Maybe i should transfer it next week or so, Id like to save some yeast aswell...

Aside from Brett and Sour Saisons, Ive never left one in primary longer than 3 weeks. And thats out of about 25 using many different yeasts

 

[joshesmusica]

Thanks for the tips!
Yeah its the worst season to brew a saison but I did it anyway, for me the best time is in winter, i can just have the fermentation bucket close to a radiator to keep the heat up. Ive stopped brewing beers in summertime, theres just too many fruitflies!
Ive had good n steady airlock activity the first days, and its been smelling good, but yesterday that awful sulphur smell is there. Ill just wait it out. Im keeping it at 24-25 degrees C. How long does it usually take to get rid of the sulphur smell? Its happened to me before and i dont really understand where it comes from. its been with different yeasts.

Are you just smelling the airlock, or are you smelling inside the primary? Did the sulfur smell go away in the ones from before?

Do you think one month is too long in primary? I usually dont do secondary fermentation due to the risk of infection. Maybe i should transfer it next week or so, Id like to save some yeast aswell...

I just bottle a Christmas porter that had been in primary for like 5 1/2 weeks. I don't think it's a problem to leave it. Although, if you're sure it's reached FG (I hear some saison strains can be very finicky and take a long time to reach FG), there's no reason you can't go ahead and bottle it. It will condition pretty well in the bottle as well.

 

[Kiichi]

I've heard stories about 32°C at the brewery, not sure if they're not just fisherman's tales though

Shaun Hill of Hill Farmstead said you can bring up saisons to that level and I trust that man. Letting it just run wild and not drop in temp is key. 75-90f is what he proposes.

There is also a theory on keeping dupont from stalling by removing the water from the airlock and covering it in tinfoil. Idea is that the yeast does not like the pressure, so you give it more of an open fermentation style.

 

[rockdemon]

Are you just smelling the airlock, or are you smelling inside the primary? Did the sulfur smell go away in the ones from before?



I just bottle a Christmas porter that had been in primary for like 5 1/2 weeks. I don't think it's a problem to leave it. Although, if you're sure it's reached FG (I hear some saison strains can be very finicky and take a long time to reach FG), there's no reason you can't go ahead and bottle it. It will condition pretty well in the bottle as well.

Im smelling the airlock after a bubble. Its not that bad, but some sulfur. I used the dry Abbaye yeast once and that thing smelled like hell. I did go away after a while in the fermenter.
Yeah the saison dupont yeast seems to be quite famous for slow attenation so ill probably transfer the beer to a secondary after 2 weeks and then keep it in secondary for 2 more weeks at 25C.

 

[unclebrazzie]

Do you think one month is too long in primary? I usually dont do secondary fermentation due to the risk of infection. Maybe i should transfer it next week or so, Id like to save some yeast aswell...

The risk of infection does not come from the time spent in secondary but from the sanitation level of the secondary

The point of secondary is twofold:

• completing fermentation: especially slow churners like Bretts like a long secondary. Fickle Ol' Dupont benefits from this as well, especially if you suspect it to have stalled during primary.
• clearing / settling: in the abscence of refridgeration, a long slow secondary can help the yeast to come out of suspension

There are more points to secondary, but generally speaking, these are good reasons to give your beer some time. The secret ingredient of good beer is time.

There is also a theory on keeping dupont from stalling by removing the water from the airlock and covering it in tinfoil. Idea is that the yeast does not like the pressure, so you give it more of an open fermentation style.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that Dupont uses open fermentor. While I can imagine yeast being influenced by the considerable pressure building up inside a multi-hectoliter-capacity closed fermentor, even fickle ol' Dupont is enough of a wuss to be intimidated by that bit of water in the airlock.

Homerbrewers' airlocks aren't designed to build up pressure; they merely rely on the internal pressure being sufficient to expel CO2 without letting O2 in. If your were to take measurements, I doubt you'd come up much above ambient pressure levels inside an active primary fermentor.

 

[joshesmusica]

Im smelling the airlock after a bubble. Its not that bad, but some sulfur. I used the dry Abbaye yeast once and that thing smelled like hell. I did go away after a while in the fermenter.
Yeah the saison dupont yeast seems to be quite famous for slow attenation so ill probably transfer the beer to a secondary after 2 weeks and then keep it in secondary for 2 more weeks at 25C.

I don't see how smelling the airlock after a bubble will ever give you a true indication of what's going on inside the fermenter. In fact, I don't even trust the smell of the fermenter/bottling bucket when I'm bottling to give me a complete indication of what the final aroma will be like. I'm not recommending that you open up the fermenter to get a real smell, but relying on airlock aromas to tell what's happening is a really bad thing to get worried about. That is mostly co2 off-gassing anyways, which will give you a pretty good "carbonic bite" to the nose.

 

[rockdemon]

I don't see how smelling the airlock after a bubble will ever give you a true indication of what's going on inside the fermenter. In fact, I don't even trust the smell of the fermenter/bottling bucket when I'm bottling to give me a complete indication of what the final aroma will be like. I'm not recommending that you open up the fermenter to get a real smell, but relying on airlock aromas to tell what's happening is a really bad thing to get worried about. That is mostly co2 off-gassing anyways, which will give you a pretty good "carbonic bite" to the nose.

Yeah I agree but the co2 from the airlock must give me some kind of hint of whats going on inside? It usually doesnt differ that much from the smell inside the fermentor with most of my brews. I really dont like opening the fermentor so i usually sniff the airlock to get a hint of whats happening. Usually its hops in at first, then yeast and then other stuff happens, the co2 bubbling up doesnt usually smell that good after a couple of days. And if it smells sulfur in the airlock it probably smells of sulfur under the lid aswell?

Can anyone brew a beer without sniffing the airlock when its active? Im almost obsessed with it like catnip

 

[joshesmusica]

From the book "Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation:"

"Yeast produce sulfur compounds in large quantities during fermentation, but these compounds generally are volatile enough that strong fermentation activity drives them from solution along with the CO 2 , greatly reducing sulfur levels by the time you (or a customer) drink the beer."

 

[rockdemon]

The risk of infection does not come from the time spent in secondary but from the sanitation level of the secondary

The point of secondary is twofold:

• completing fermentation: especially slow churners like Bretts like a long secondary. Fickle Ol' Dupont benefits from this as well, especially if you suspect it to have stalled during primary.
• clearing / settling: in the abscence of refridgeration, a long slow secondary can help the yeast to come out of suspension

There are more points to secondary, but generally speaking, these are good reasons to give your beer some time. The secret ingredient of good beer is time.



I seem to recall reading somewhere that Dupont uses open fermentor. While I can imagine yeast being influenced by the considerable pressure building up inside a multi-hectoliter-capacity closed fermentor, even fickle ol' Dupont is enough of a wuss to be intimidated by that bit of water in the airlock.

Homerbrewers' airlocks aren't designed to build up pressure; they merely rely on the internal pressure being sufficient to expel CO2 without letting O2 in. If your were to take measurements, I doubt you'd come up much above ambient pressure levels inside an active primary fermentor.

Yeah, of course my concern with infection is from yher extra risk that some kind of bacteria will reach my while racking to secondary or that its allready present in the secon vessel. Ive gotten to infected batches, one got infected when i racked to secondary and one got infected when i dry hopped it.

How do people dare to have open fermentations? All kinds of bugs can get in your beer. I saw a documentary about cantillion brewery and they had big pools of beer in their open attic. how come birds, flies etc dont get in the beer?

 

[rockdemon]

From the book "Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation:"

"Yeast produce sulfur compounds in large quantities during fermentation, but these compounds generally are volatile enough that strong fermentation activity drives them from solution along with the CO 2 , greatly reducing sulfur levels by the time you (or a customer) drink the beer."

I racked the beer to secondary yesterday. It hade gone from 1060 to 1006 in 2 weeks and it was a really good beer. It was a tad sour so i probably got the ph wrong but otherwise im hopeful. I harvested the yeast from the trub since it seemed to be a good yeast(saison dupont). and the sulfur was completely gone

 

[AnthonyUK]

I racked the beer to secondary yesterday. It hade gone from 1060 to 1006 in 2 weeks and it was a really good beer. It was a tad sour so i probably got the ph wrong but otherwise im hopeful. I harvested the yeast from the trub since it seemed to be a good yeast(saison dupont). and the sulfur was completely gone

Saisons can be quite sour post fermentation but this will fade over time.
It isn't a beer to be drunk too young.

 

[Seismogenic]

Shaun Hill of Hill Farmstead said you can bring up saisons to that level and I trust that man. Letting it just run wild and not drop in temp is key. 75-90f is what he proposes.

There is also a theory on keeping dupont from stalling by removing the water from the airlock and covering it in tinfoil. Idea is that the yeast does not like the pressure, so you give it more of an open fermentation style.

I brewed a saison with the Dupont strain this summer - my first time using it. I did the tinfoil over the fermenter thing and held the temperature at 85F for a whole month. FG ended up being 1.001, and there are definitely some good peppery flavors going on in the beer.

So...just one example, but those tricks definitely worked for me, for what it's worth.

 

[rockdemon]

Saisons can be quite sour post fermentation but this will fade over time.
It isn't a beer to be drunk too young.

will if fade during fermentation or in the bottles?

I tried a saison dupont bottle in florida and i was struck by the big difference between that one and the ones we have here in sweden. Here they have alot of funky nose and some hops and pepper in the flavor. There it tasted quite sour. dont know why really.

 

[AnthonyUK]

I've made Saisons with Belle Saison yeast that have been pretty much undrinkable when first bottled but after 2-3 months are superb. The sourness becomes citrussy freshness and the thinness fills out nicely.
The Dupont I've had in UK matches your experience in Sweden.

 

[rockdemon]

I've made Saisons with Belle Saison yeast that have been pretty much undrinkable when first bottled but after 2-3 months are superb. The sourness becomes citrussy freshness and the thinness fills out nicely.
The Dupont I've had in UK matches your experience in Sweden.

I have belle saison at home but Ive never used it. Is it any good? Ive seen that alot of people put black pepper in their saisons, that sounds very interresting, have you ever tried that?

 

[snow16]

+1 on all of this. There's some great advice here.

With proper handling, you should have no issues getting beautiful spice/phenol flavors from that yeast. Get your recipe and yeast handling down before you consider adding spices. You'll probably find that you don't need them!

Good luck!

 

[AnthonyUK]

I'm a bit of a traditionalist and agree with snow16. I've not tried a Saison with spice/pepper additions yet where I thought it added anything I liked but the great thing with homebrewing is you can tailor your recipe to your own tastes.

 

[m00ps]

I have belle saison at home but Ive never used it. Is it any good? Ive seen that alot of people put black pepper in their saisons, that sounds very interresting, have you ever tried that?

I did a lemon pepper saison which turned otu very well. The pepper and lemon was just barely detectable in regards to how it meshed with the yeast character. I cant taste either anymore

 

[Kiichi]

I think these things also strongly depent on what spice you are using. If I were to add pepper to a saison I would definetly go for tellicherry pepper since it is complex, mellower, and has an earthy quality that just plays into saisons.

That playing into things also inspired me to do a green tea and lemon (touch of lime until I can get yuzu) saison at session strength. Fourth batch is working and I am playing into the citrus notes of 3711 originally and now I am trying Belle Saison, while the green tea picks up the spice notes and expands them greatly to form the base. Results in a session for the folks who don´t like beer because of that idea I recon.

 

[joshesmusica]

Saisons can be quite sour post fermentation but this will fade over time.
It isn't a beer to be drunk too young.

I know this isn't the same yeast as is being discussed here, but my wife and I just bottled a Licorice Saison (her idea, Norwegians love their licorice) brewed with Mangrove Jack's Belgian Ale yeast. It's been in the primary for nearly 6 weeks (5 weeks, 5 days), and it had a little bit of a sour twang to it. On their website it says it's "highly attenuative." Hell yeah it is! 1.000 FG! My first thought was infection, but after another identical reading a week later, and absolutely no sign of infection at all, I'm guessing it's probably a combination of us missing mash temps a bit, and that this strain just eats the hell out of everything.

For this one, we didn't get crazy with the ferment temps because we wanted to not overpower the licorice. She wants to use it for a tank 7 clone next, so I'll likely ramp the temps this go-round.

 

[rockdemon]

I know this isn't the same yeast as is being discussed here, but my wife and I just bottled a Licorice Saison (her idea, Norwegians love their licorice) brewed with Mangrove Jack's Belgian Ale yeast. It's been in the primary for nearly 6 weeks (5 weeks, 5 days), and it had a little bit of a sour twang to it. On their website it says it's "highly attenuative." Hell yeah it is! 1.000 FG! My first thought was infection, but after another identical reading a week later, and absolutely no sign of infection at all, I'm guessing it's probably a combination of us missing mash temps a bit, and that this strain just eats the hell out of everything.

For this one, we didn't get crazy with the ferment temps because we wanted to not overpower the licorice. She wants to use it for a tank 7 clone next, so I'll likely ramp the temps this go-round.

Did the soureness dissapear with time? Ive heard some people say that belle saison also gives som sour taste. Is there somewy to get around that? I really dont like when the beer gets a bit sour when its not supposed to be a sour...

 

[Kiichi]

I´d like to know that too. I just did my green tea and citrus session with it, cold crashing right now, instead of 3711. Now, sourness would not hurt here and I won´t even notice I recon cause of the citrus. But that would be good to know.

Planning on using it to produce a cider too where an extra tart note might be nice.

Meanwhile I just popped the first bottle of a saison with WLP585 and THAT one definetly brings tart fruit. Could think there was some fruity brett in there, but supposedly not.