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2nd Brew Way Off Target Gravity

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forgetaboudit

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I finished my second BIAB and I'm at a loss...
My estimated post mash gravity was 1.044. I stirred very well, measured the temp, and used a correction calculator and got 1.040. Ok, thats fine with me I think. My estimated post boil gravity is 1.057. I go though the boil, chill it, transfer to carboy, measure temp and gravity and come out with a corrected gravity of 1.032.
WHAT HAPPENED?!
How is it possible to come out with a lower gravity after boiling down??
Why am I so far off after my post mash was real close??
 
How are taking your specific gravity measurements?

What specifically do you mean by "correction calculator"?

I suspect that your wort is OK, and that you have just got some things wrong with your measurements.
 
How are taking your specific gravity measurements?

What specifically do you mean by "correction calculator"?

I suspect that your wort is OK, and that you have just got some things wrong with your measurements.
With a hydrometer. I used 2 different calculator programs that correct the gravity depending on the temperature.
The post boil gravity is way too low for the recipe.
 
Welllll it's impossible to get a lower postboil SG than preboil, unless you somehow added water.
So one of your measurements have to be wrong somewhere.
A fairly common problem (especially with extract brews which yours isn't right?) is wort stratification where adding water postboil = layers of higher gravity and lower gravity wort. Did you add topoff water?
 
Forego the correction formulas. Just let the samples cool down to 60-70F (frozen cup, stick in freezer, etc.).

Did you add water after the boil?

Lower pre-boil gravity usually indicates lower mash efficiency than your recipe formulator is set for. Most ready to brew recipes are set for an average 75% total brewhouse efficiency, but it varies widely depending on your equipment and processes.

How is your grain milled? Most LHBS mill way too coarsely, being the most common cause of low mash efficiency. There should be no whole kernels or any bits larger than 3/32-1/8" in the milled grist. You can run it through twice, but a tighter gap is the real answer.

Do you squeeze and/or sparge the bag after pulling it? That could easily add 5% to your efficiency. Just hold some water back for the sparge.

Volume and gravity are tightly intertwined. After the mash, your volume * your gravity (use the 2 or 3 digits after the decimal) is the amount of points (sugar) you have. That number should remain the same unless you spill. E.g. 1.040 after the mash: 6 gallons * 40 = 240 points. End of boil 5 gallons 240 pts / 5 gallons = 48 pts ==> 1.048.
 
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Forego the correction formulas. Just let the samples cool down to 60-70F (frozen cup, stick in freezer, etc.).

Did you add water after the boil?

Lower pre-boil gravity usually indicates lower mash efficiency than your recipe formulator is set for. Most ready to brew recipes are set for an average 75% total brewhouse efficiency, but it varies widely depending on your equipment and processes.

How is your grain milled? Most LHBS mill way too coarsely, being the most common cause of low mash efficiency. There should be no whole kernels or any bits larger than 3/32-1/8" in the milled grist. You can run it through twice, but a tighter gap is the real answer.

Do you squeeze and/or sparge the bag after pulling it? That could easily add 5% to your efficiency. Just hold some water back for the sparge.

Volume and gravity are tightly intertwined. After the mash, your volume * your gravity (use the 2 or 3 digits after the decimal) is the amount of points (sugar) you have. That number should remain the same unless you spill. E.g. 1.040 after the mash: 6 gallons * 40 = 240 points. End of boil 5 gallons @1.048.
No water added after the boil. I milled the grain at the store. I will double mill it next time. Will a refractometer do better with hot wort?
 
Milling has nothing to do with getting lower gravity after the boil. After the boil, the wort has been concentrated not diluted. Something is wrong here
 
No water added after the boil. ...

Then something is goofy with your measurements. Don't sweat it, just take it as an opportunity to learn.

Your beer will be fine. Keep your fermentation temps in the range specified for the yeast.

... I milled the grain at the store. I will double mill it next time.

That should give you a small bump in efficiency. Other things you can do to help efficiency is to do a sparge, and mash longer.

But the best and final solution is to get your own grain mill. If you're going to BIAB, you really need your own mill. With it set to a fine gap (~.025") you can get great efficiency with a single crush, with no need to sparge (unless you just want to).

Will a refractometer do better with hot wort?

Yes, the tiny sample cools very quickly. I really like it that a refractometer sample takes only a few drops of wort.

If you want to get better hydrometer readings it's best to cool the sample to the point where no temperature correction is needed.
 
Will a refractometer do better with hot wort?
It's much faster, absolutely. They're under $20 on Amazon/eBay.

It only takes 1-2 drops, but... you need to be careful of those drops' evaporation during transfer, possibly giving you an incorrect, inflated reading.

I scoop out a 1/4 cup and let it chill down for a few minutes, then transfer 1-2 drops to the prism. I may still get a point or 2 too high due to some evap, but it's in the ballpark, which is good enough for me, and the beer.
 
Then something is goofy with your measurements. Don't sweat it, just take it as an opportunity to learn.

Your beer will be fine. Keep your fermentation temps in the range specified for the yeast.



That should give you a small bump in efficiency. Other things you can do to help efficiency is to do a sparge, and mash longer.

But the best and final solution is to get your own grain mill. If you're going to BIAB, you really need your own mill. With it set to a fine gap (~.025") you can get great efficiency with a single crush, with no need to sparge (unless you just want to).



Yes, the tiny sample cools very quickly. I really like it that a refractometer sample takes only a few drops of wort.

If you want to get better hydrometer readings it's best to cool the sample to the point where no temperature correction is needed.
How do I sparge with BIAB? Is there anything else I can do to get more goods from the grain? Because if this issue keeps happening, ill be real good at making all day beers.. Not exactly what I was going for....
 
It's much faster, absolutely. They're under $20 on Amazon/eBay.

It only takes 1-2 drops, but... you need to be careful of those drops' evaporation during transfer, possibly giving you an incorrect, inflated reading.

I scoop out a 1/4 cup and let it chill down for a few minutes, then transfer 1-2 drops to the prism. I may still get a point or 2 too high due to some evap, but it's in the ballpark, which is good enough for me, and the beer.
I've got a refractometer, just forgot about it. Ill use it for sure next time. Assuming I was low on post mash, do you know anything I can do to ensure i get to my target next time?

I thought it was odd reading my thermowell thermometer the temp only dropped 2 degrees during mashing. I didnt want to take off the insulation and check it with another thermometer. (Even though the thermowell one is spot on my handheld)
 
Here are some photos of a couple of crushes.

One thing most people who do BIAB do is to crush rather finely. I suspect what you got from the LHBS was more like the first pic below. Note the whole kernels--you're not going to get anything out of them. The first pic shows a fair crush, but it still needs a bit more.

The second pic shows a not particularly good crush. You don't want a lot of flour (though some will argue you do), but those pieces are too big for BIAB--and frankly, too big for anything. The starch in the kernels needs to gelatinize so the enzymes can get at the starch and convert them to sugar.

IMO, a good crush will have a little flour, and most of the pieces you see will be the size of the "typical chunks" or smaller.

You can run the crushed grain through the mill twice and that will help; see if they'll let you close the gap a bit.


crush1.jpg
crush2labeled.jpg
 
I've got a refractometer, just forgot about it. Ill use it for sure next time. Assuming I was low on post mash, do you know anything I can do to ensure i get to my target next time?
Mill finer. Especially with BIAB, you can mill it almost to powder, the mesh is your lauter filter. 90% mash efficiencies are not uncommon with BIAB.
I thought it was odd reading my thermowell thermometer the temp only dropped 2 degrees during mashing. I didnt want to take off the insulation and check it with another thermometer. (Even though the thermowell one is spot on my handheld)
Good call on leaving it alone! When the mash is done, you can take a few readings in different areas and see how they compare with your thermowell.
 
How do I sparge with BIAB? Is there anything else I can do to get more goods from the grain? Because if this issue keeps happening, ill be real good at making all day beers.. Not exactly what I was going for....

Like batch or fly sparging, withhold some water. Instead of pour the water through the grain bed (fly sparge) or adding it all to the grain bed (batch sparge), dunk your bag in it and let it rest. Then add the sparge wort to your main wort.

For example I batch sparge: I heat 8.5 gal, reserve 3.5 gal for sparge, strike with 5 gal. I lauter 4 gal wort, sparge with the 3.5 reserve, and lauter 3.5 wort for a total of 7.5 pre boil wort.
 
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Here are some photos of a couple of crushes.

One thing most people who do BIAB do is to crush rather finely. I suspect what you got from the LHBS was more like the first pic below. Note the whole kernels--you're not going to get anything out of them. The first pic shows a fair crush, but it still needs a bit more.

The second pic shows a not particularly good crush. You don't want a lot of flour (though some will argue you do), but those pieces are too big for BIAB--and frankly, too big for anything. The starch in the kernels needs to gelatinize so the enzymes can get at the starch and convert them to sugar.

IMO, a good crush will have a little flour, and most of the pieces you see will be the size of the "typical chunks" or smaller.

You can run the crushed grain through the mill twice and that will help; see if they'll let you close the gap a bit.


View attachment 643312 View attachment 643314
That's pretty much what my grains looked like.... They have it set at what its set. Ill run it through a second time next brew session. I really appreaciate the help.
 
Like batch or fly sparging, withhold some water. Instead of pour the water through the grain bed (fly sparge) or adding it all to the grain bed (batch sparge), dunk your bag in it and let it rest. Then add the sparge wort to your main wort.

For example I batch sparge: I heat 8.5 gal, reserve 3.5 gal for sparge, strike with 5 gal. I lauter 4 gal wort, sparge with the 3.5 reserve, and lauter 3.5 wort for a total of 7.5 pre boil wort.
So I'd need a second burner to heat the sparge water?
If my batch was 7.5 total water, why start with 8.5? Im not following completely...
 
So I'd need a second burner to heat the sparge water?
If my batch was 7.5 total water, why start with 8.5? Im not following completely...

You don't need to heat sparge water. You can use cool water if you want. All you're doing with sparging is rinsing the remaining sugar off the grain. That sugar is already dissolved so hot water isn't necessary. About the only reason I can think of to heat sparge water is that it will speed up the wort coming to a boil. And it's probably worth it for that. I always did that, just to speed up the boil. But it's not necessary.

If you heat sparge water, stay below 170 degrees. If the pH isn't right, water hotter than 170 can extract tannins from the grain husks, which will create an astrigency in your beer.
 
So I'd need a second burner to heat the sparge water?
If my batch was 7.5 total water, why start with 8.5? Im not following completely...

Grain will absorb some water. That was just my example. YMMV.

You don’t need a second burner. Heat all the water and reserve a portion in another vessel. Or Use cold water.
 
So from what I've gathered to resolve this issue next brew day would be to double mill the grains, use my refractometer or cool down a sample for the hydrometer, and sparge.

For sparging either heat all the water I need, or reserve a couple gallons (2?) for sparging. When the mash is over, dunk the bag in the sparge water (in another kettle of some sort), maybe pour some of the water over the bag, squeeze the bag like I'm in a farting contest, and add all that to my boil.

Is that right? That should get me back into my target gravities and resolve the false hot reading with post mash?
 
So from what I've gathered to resolve this issue next brew day would be to double mill the grains, use my refractometer or cool down a sample for the hydrometer, and sparge.

For sparging either heat all the water I need, or reserve a couple gallons (2?) for sparging. When the mash is over, dunk the bag in the sparge water (in another kettle of some sort), maybe pour some of the water over the bag, squeeze the bag like I'm in a farting contest, and add all that to my boil.

Is that right? That should get me back into my target gravities and resolve the false hot reading with post mash?
That sums it up. You'll get the biggest bang for your squeeze buck if you squeeze prior to sparging.

Brew on :mug:
 
Try 2 at first, then if it won’t cover the entire grain bed, maybe try 2.5, then if that doesn’t work 3. Try to rinse all the grain to get all the sugars.
 
I end up splitting my water about halfway between mash (in a cooler or kettle) and batch sparges. I mash at 1.5 quarts of water / pound of grist. Then the sparge water gets split in half too, for 2 equal volume batch sparges.

With BIAB and squeezing, a single sparge of say 3 gallons should be enough for most malt bills. The water can be cold or warm, doesn't matter much. I think a dunk sparge in a large bucket, spare kettle, etc. is most efficient if preceded and followed by a good squeeze.
 
How do I sparge with BIAB?...

Here's what I find to be the easiest way to sparge, it also yields great brewhouse efficiency. This works best if your kettle has a drain valve, and you have a way of hanging your bag over the kettle.
  • Mash with 50% of your total water volume.
  • Drain the wort into a bucket, leaving the bag and grains in place.
  • Add the remaining 50% of the water, and stir thoroughly.
  • Raise the bag. Fire the heat for the boil. Pour the bucket of wort into the kettle.
  • Let the bag drain over the kettle during the entire boil (no need to squeeze).
...Is there anything else I can do to get more goods from the grain?....

Yes there is. Buy your own grain mill and set the gap to .025". You'll never regret spending that $100, and if you buy your base grain in full sacks the savings will pay for the mill soon enough.
 
1 quick question... When adding water additions, would i add the full amount to the mash water, or split them between the mash water and sparge water?
 
1 quick question... When adding water additions, would i add the full amount to the mash water, or split them between the mash water and sparge water?
Normally you have your software figure out the additions for the mash, so they go in the mash. If sparging with water that has any significant alkalinity, you may want to acidify it to a pH of 5.8 or less.

Brew on :mug:
 
Here's what I find to be the easiest way to sparge, it also yields great brewhouse efficiency. This works best if your kettle has a drain valve, and you have a way of hanging your bag over the kettle.
  • Mash with 50% of your total water volume.
  • Drain the wort into a bucket, leaving the bag and grains in place.
  • Add the remaining 50% of the water, and stir thoroughly.
  • Raise the bag. Fire the heat for the boil. Pour the bucket of wort into the kettle.
  • Let the bag drain over the kettle during the entire boil (no need to squeeze).


Yes there is. Buy your own grain mill and set the gap to .025". You'll never regret spending that $100, and if you buy your base grain in full sacks the savings will pay for the mill soon enough.

Any recommendations on a good mill. I will be buying one shortly.

Thanks
 
Any recommendations on a good mill. I will be buying one shortly.

Thanks

The mill you choose will depend on some factors. Do you want a motorized mill? Can you adapt a motor of some kind to a mill that doesn't have one? How big does the hopper need to be? Will you go back and forth between BIAB and a conventional tun?

I bought a Corona mill and set it fine. It works great for BIAB and my efficiency is very high with the fine particles that the BIAB setup is capable of handling. You may love or hate one. Check out this thread on it.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/my-ugly-junk-corona-mill-station.90849/
 
Any recommendations on a good mill...

I would say the best value is the Cereal Killer. There are a lot of positive comments about that mill on this site. $100 for a quality mill, a mounting plate, and shipping is a great deal.

You'll want to drive it with a drill or some other motorized arrangement. This $56 drill from HF has the gearing needed to deliver high torque at low speeds (which is what you want/need). I've been using mine for about 3yrs now, and it has never given me any problems. Grinding grain is all I use it for.
 
Im trying to input everything for another brew into Beersmith. I cant figure out how to calculate water additions and water volumes for sparging with biab. How do I go about figuring this out?
 
Im trying to input everything for another brew into Beersmith. I cant figure out how to calculate water additions and water volumes for sparging with biab. How do I go about figuring this out?
  • How much beer do you want to end up with (bottled or kegged?)
  • How much volume do you typically leave behind in your fermenter (plus bottling bucket if you use one) when you package your beer?
  • How much volume do you typically leave behind in your boil kettle when you transfer to the fermenter?
  • How much volume do you typically boil off?
Add all of the above together, and that is your target pre-boil volume. Now figure out your expected grain absorption based on your grain bill weight. If you just hang the bag for an extended amount of time use a grain absorption rate of 0.10 gal/lb. If you do a moderate squeeze, use an absorption rate of 0.08 gal/lb. If you do an aggressive squeeze, use a rate of 0.06 gal/lb. Then expected grain absorption is: Grain bill weight * grain absorption rate.

Finally add your target pre-boil volume and your expected grain absorption to get your total required brewing water volume.

It's not too critical how you divide the total required brewing water volume between strike and sparge, but to optimize efficiency using 60% of the total water for strike and 40% for sparging will work well in most cases.

In BeerSmith, packaged volume plus volume left in fermenter/bottling bucket is defined as the "Batch Size." Volume left behind in the BK called "Loss to Trub and Chiller." With BIAB you should have 0 "Mash Deadspace Losses." Grain absorption rate is set with the menu: "Tools -> Options -> Advanced." BS wants absorption rates in fl oz/oz, and to get that value multiply gal/lb by 8.

Brew on :mug:
 
  • How much beer do you want to end up with (bottled or kegged?)
  • How much volume do you typically leave behind in your fermenter (plus bottling bucket if you use one) when you package your beer?
  • How much volume do you typically leave behind in your boil kettle when you transfer to the fermenter?
  • How much volume do you typically boil off?
Add all of the above together, and that is your target pre-boil volume. Now figure out your expected grain absorption based on your grain bill weight. If you just hang the bag for an extended amount of time use a grain absorption rate of 0.10 gal/lb. If you do a moderate squeeze, use an absorption rate of 0.08 gal/lb. If you do an aggressive squeeze, use a rate of 0.06 gal/lb. Then expected grain absorption is: Grain bill weight * grain absorption rate.

Finally add your target pre-boil volume and your expected grain absorption to get your total required brewing water volume.

It's not too critical how you divide the total required brewing water volume between strike and sparge, but to optimize efficiency using 60% of the total water for strike and 40% for sparging will work well in most cases.

In BeerSmith, packaged volume plus volume left in fermenter/bottling bucket is defined as the "Batch Size." Volume left behind in the BK called "Loss to Trub and Chiller." With BIAB you should have 0 "Mash Deadspace Losses." Grain absorption rate is set with the menu: "Tools -> Options -> Advanced." BS wants absorption rates in fl oz/oz, and to get that value multiply gal/lb by 8.

Brew on :mug:
I understood all that already, but now how do i figure out how much water additions to add to just the strike water?
 
I understood all that already, but now how do i figure out how much water additions to add to just the strike water?
Sorry I misunderstood your question. I thought you were asking about volume determination.

For water additions, I use BrunWater. I have read that BS is not the best for determining water additions. In order to use one of the water adjustment tools, you need to know the ionic content of your starting water (Ca, Mg, Fe, Na, Cl, SO4, bicarbonate, etc.) and input that into the water adjustment software. If you are using RO or distilled water, then it's safe to assume that all ionic content is 0 (not actually true, but the error will be insignificant.)

I would add my ionic additions (Ca, Cl, SO4, etc.) to all of the brewing water, both strike and sparge, so that you have the same concentrations in both, and that will be what you end up with in your wort (although the mash process may increase or decrease some ions, but I don't worry about that.) Then add acid (lactic) or base (pickling lime, baking soda) to adjust mash pH. If sparging, I add acid to get the sparge water pH under 5.8, but never add base to increase the sparge water pH.

Brew on :mug:
 
So I'm doing my third Brew in a bag after extract. I've had issues with efficiency and extracting all the sugars I needed to. I double-crossed the grains at Northern Brewer, sparged by dunking the bag into 2 kettles with about 2 gallons each , I squeezed The Living Daylights out of the grain bag. My estimated post Mash gravity should be 1.036 with an estimated pre boil volume of 7.99 gallons I measured 1.030 at 7.85 gallons. Beersmith is giving me a measured Mash efficiency of 65.5% what am I doing wrong?
 
So I'm doing my third Brew in a bag after extract. I've had issues with efficiency and extracting all the sugars I needed to. I double-crossed the grains at Northern Brewer, sparged by dunking the bag into 2 kettles with about 2 gallons each , I squeezed The Living Daylights out of the grain bag. My estimated post Mash gravity should be 1.036 with an estimated pre boil volume of 7.99 gallons I measured 1.030 at 7.85 gallons. Beersmith is giving me a measured Mash efficiency of 65.5% what am I doing wrong?
Need more specifics about your process: mash temp and time, dough in process (amount of stirring, make sure no dough balls, etc.), grain bill, strike and sparge volumes, how well stirred were the sparges, etc.

Brew on :mug:
 
Try mashing for 90 min. An Aussie(they invented BIAB), on a podcast recommended it. The reasoning being that in traditional 3 vessel brewing you mash for 60 then sparge/circulate over your grain bed for 20-30 min. So water is in contact with grains for 90 min. I do it and hit my numbers pretty close.
 
Need more specifics about your process: mash temp and time, dough in process (amount of stirring, make sure no dough balls, etc.), grain bill, strike and sparge volumes, how well stirred were the sparges, etc.

Brew on :mug:
Mash temp was right around 152 I believe for 60 minutes. I added the 5.5 lbs. Weyermann Pale Wheat malt and 4 lbs German Pilsner malt (which I ran through NB's mill twice) slowly while stirring it in. I had 4-1/4 gallons total between 2 kettles for dunk sparging. I had 4-1/2 gallons strike water. After the mash, I removed the bag, let it drain over the BK and squeezed it. I then dunked it in the first sparge water a few times. I let it drain over the sparge water and squeezed the life out of it. I then repeated the process again with the second sparge kettle. I then took all the sparge water and dumped it in the BK. I left a little in each sparge kettle to swirl around to get all the particles and sediment at the bottom. That also got added to the BK.

I feel the issue is somewhere in the mashing process. I heated the water to 154, added the bag of grains, and turned off the heat. I then put a lid on, covered the kettle with a sleepingbag, and let it be. The temp dropped to 150ish at one point, so I removed the sleeping bag, and fired it back up for a couple minutes, all the while bouncing the bag to stir it up. I then again turned off the heat, covered it and let it go.
Do I need to do something different to extract all the things I need during the mash? I have read about raising the temp for mashout at the end of the mash, doing rests at different temps, and so on and so forth. This being only my 3rd BIAB and everyone of them being low on OG and high on volume, its getting quite demoralizing.
 
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I finished my second BIAB and I'm at a loss...
My estimated post mash gravity was 1.044. I stirred very well, measured the temp, and used a correction calculator and got 1.040. Ok, thats fine with me I think. My estimated post boil gravity is 1.057. I go though the boil, chill it, transfer to carboy, measure temp and gravity and come out with a corrected gravity of 1.032.
WHAT HAPPENED?!
How is it possible to come out with a lower gravity after boiling down??
Why am I so far off after my post mash was real close??

Mash temp was right around 152 I believe for 60 minutes. I added the 5.5 lbs. Weyermann Pale Wheat malt and 4 lbs German Pilsner malt (which I ran through NB's mill twice) slowly while stirring it in. I had 4-1/4 gallons total between 2 kettles for dunk sparging. I had 4-1/2 gallons strike water. After the mash, I removed the bag, let it drain over the BK and squeezed it. I then dunked it in the first sparge water a few times. I let it drain over the sparge water and squeezed the life out of it. I then repeated the process again with the second sparge kettle. I then took all the sparge water and dumped it in the BK. I left a little in each sparge kettle to swirl around to get all the particles and sediment at the bottom. That also got added to the BK.

I feel the issue is somewhere in the mashing process. I heated the water to 154, added the bag of grains, and turned off the heat. I then put a lid on, covered the kettle with a sleepingbag, and let it be. The temp dropped to 150ish at one point, so I removed the sleeping bag, and fired it back up for a couple minutes, all the while bouncing the bag to stir it up. I then again turned off the heat, covered it and let it go.
Do I need to do something different to extract all the things I need during the mash? I have read about raising the temp for mashout at the end of the mash, doing rests at different temps, and so on and so forth. This being only my 3rd BIAB and everyone of them being low on OG and high on volume, its getting quite demoralizing.
For your total 9.5 lb of grain and 8.75 gal of total brewing water (w/2X dunk sparge), I get your estimated pre-boil volume at 1.040 if the conversion efficiency was 100%. So, that seems to check out.

To get from 1.040 at an estimated 8 gal pre-boil to 1.057 post boil, you would have had to boil off about 2.4 gal for a post-boil volume of 1.057. This doesn't seem reasonable, so your post-boil estimate looks off.

Can you give some more details (how, when, wort temp when measured, etc.) about the post-boil SG measurement?

Brew on :mug:
 

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