2007 Lobuck Rules Committee

[Sir Humpsalot]

Most of the work goes into the issue of pricing. I think once a system is set in stone (after I've contacted potential sponsors), that will become a lot more clear. But in the mean time, I've got the rules whittled down to five.

Yep. FIVE (sorta) SIMPLE RULES. Everything else is a matter for the judges.

The Rules

1. The limit for this year is (tentatively) set as follows:
$2.07 per gallon of beer made from extract
$1.80 per gallon made from a partial mash recipe
$1.35 per gallon made from all grain

If you go over the limit, points will be deducted

2. Each entry MUST contain Malted grain, barley, hops, and yeast.

3. The brewer may buy his ingredients from any supplier and the actual price paid for these supplies is irrelevant. Your ingredient price is to be computed as the cost charged by (fill in the name of the sponsoring homebrew website here), not including shipping or taxes. In the event that this sponsor does not have your desired ingredient, you may use (insert the name of other homebrew sites here) to find the price. In the event that your desired ingredient is not available through any of these websites, peapod.com will be used. In the event that Peapod doesn’t have your ingredient, you must contact the judges for a ruling. All ingredients, regardless of source, will be deemed to have been purchased at the regular advertised price.

a. Extract. For Extract and Partial Mash Brewers, standard malts (DME or
LME) will be priced on the assumption that you are purchasing 25 pounds.
b. Grain. For All-Grain brewers, standard malts will be priced on the assumption that you are buying a 55lb bag.
c. Specialty grains. Specialty Grains will be priced by the pound.
d. Hops. All hops will be priced by the pound.
e. Other. Other ingredients (Irish moss, clarifying agent, etc) priced at the non-bulk pricing from the specified online retailers.
f. Priming sugar. Priming sugar is free, as long as it's only added at bottling time.
g. Water. Water is a “free” ingredient. The brewer has the choice of using tap water, or else filtered water costing under $1.00 per gallon. Because water quality varies significantly, the purpose of this rule is to permit people living in locations with awful water to compete on a level playing field. Any use of mineral water, flavored water, or spring water that does not normally come out of the tap will require the brewer to include the entire cost of the water in his cost computation.
h. Yeast. The cost of the yeast shall be computed as per rule #1 except the cost of the yeast will then be divided by three to account for the possibility of repitching the yeast cake a time or two.
i. Time and Effort. No costs will be associated for any equipment/time/etc.

4. Only quarter-ounce increments can be used in the measurement of hops. Only quarter-pound increments can be used for malt. Ounces and pounds and gallons, and quarters thereof are the only acceptable units. In other words, you cannot add 1.387 ounces of hops to squeak under a price threshold. Just add 1.25 ounces and that’s it.

5. There is an ABSOLUTE prohibition on the addition of alcohol such as vodka or everclear to increase the alcohol content or for added “flavor”.

 

[the_bird]

Rule #4 is still unnecessary, IMHO. #2 probably is, too. What if someone wants to make a spruce beer, for example, and not use any hops? Isn't that the whole spirit of the thing, to make a beer that's cheap and creative? Is it not fair that a "cheap" way of brewing is to take advantage of things that are natually available to you?

No rules other than the price limit, no grain alcohol additions, and how things are priced. Otherwise, have at it. That's what I think would be most interesting.

 

[Brewpastor]

Why rule 5? I would never do it and would think the resulting product would blow, but if it was figured into the costs and shown in the recipe would there be any harm, other then giving everybody else a better chance at winning? Like I said, I won't be doing this either way the rule goes, but it just does not seem like a needed rule.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Rule #4 is still unnecessary, IMHO. #2 probably is, too. What if someone wants to make a spruce beer, for example, and not use any hops? Isn't that the whole spirit of the thing, to make a beer that's cheap and creative? Is it not fair that a "cheap" way of brewing is to take advantage of things that are natually available to you?

If you want to make a spruce beer, that's fine. Just add a quarter ounce of hops and then use spruce. I could get rid of it, but I think it helps make this more of a "beer" contest to tell people to at least use a token amount of the "right" ingredients. That one's still open to debate though. You may be right about it.

As for #4, the point is just to keep the measurements even. Again, the point is to make these recipes accessible to homebrewers. If you start taking weird funky measurements (1.368 ounces of Fuggles, 0.11 tsp of irish moss, etc), it makes your recipe stupid and ridiculous because nobody is ever going to follow it to the letter. People might split a bag of hops in halves or quarters. Nobody's going to take it down to the hundredth of an ounce and if you are cutting it that close just to win the competition, you're really taking it in the wrong spirit.

Why rule 5? I would never do it and would think the resulting product would blow, but if it was figured into the costs and shown in the recipe would there be any harm, other then giving everybody else a better chance at winning? Like I said, I won't be doing this either way the rule goes, but it just does not seem like a needed rule.

I'm thinking about the addition of neutral spirits to fortify the beer. I don't think that is within the spirit of the competition.

 

[Brewpastor]

I agree but still have a hard time imagining anybody bothing to do it related to this comp. More alcohol does not equal better, just stronger.

 

[the_bird]

You're assuming that people here are going to "game" the system any way that they can.

I agree with BP, #5 is unncecessary. As an example, people use bourbon to soak oak chips in, for example; not likely to happen in this competition, but if someone can figure out how to make an bourbon-oaked porter for this low a cost, as long as they add in the cost of the bourbon, who cares?

If you want people to be creative, you need to have virtually no rules. Otherwise, it's just figuring out how to get the highest efficiency so you can use the least amount of malt, and using the highest AA% hops you can find to get the beer bitter. Might be drinkable, but where's the fun in that?

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

double post

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

I agree but still have a hard time imagining anybody bothing to do it related to this comp. More alcohol does not equal better, just stronger.

But the ability to ferment a minimal amount of fermentables is a large part of this competition. I understand that, say, vodka, would add no flavor... but it would also tend to give the impression of a greater yield.

Tell me that everclear is far too expensive to use as an adjunct in this competition and I will feel much better.

Otherwise, sleep on it, think about it overnight, and tell me the same thing tomorrow and I'll give in. I don't think it's a major point but I am afraid of someone achieving an impressive ABV with beer-flavored vodka-water.

Then again, on the other hand, it would be interesting if somebody gave that a try...

 

[Brewpastor]

How about 4 categories: golden, amber, brown and black and then let creativity rule. Extremely Cheap Extreme Brewing. No hole barred, let the games begin.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

I calculate my hops by AAU, not round numbers. If I want 11 AAUs of Chinnok, that'll be .93 ounces.

Ok. This is ultimately about developing recipes. So let me ask you...

If you went to your LHBS to buy an ounce of hops, would you hold back .07 ounces? Throw them away? Put them back in the freezer?

If you say yes, then that's cool, but let me ask you another question: Do you think that's common amongst brewers?

 

[the_bird]

That's why you're my hero, BP. Genius.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

How about 4 categories: golden, amber, brown and black and then let creativity rule. Extremely Cheap Extreme Brewing. No hole barred, let the games begin.

If I had 4 guaranteed entries in each category, I would say yes. I'm not sure how popular this is going to be, so I am hesitant to create categories. I'm even making sure AG can mix it up with PM and X. There's some fun to that sort of no holds barred approach too.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

And there is NOTHING preventing the judges from looking at the number of entries and giving sub-awards for "best black/brown/amber/light/most innovative/whatever" I expect the judges will give due props to those people who came up with awesome things.

It doesn't have to be different categories from the outset. I am thinking we'll just let the judges see where the tasting leads them and let them sort of create "categories" as they're tasting... It's a little ass-backwards, for sure, but I think it will ultimately be more fair to the participants because god only knows what crazy brewers are going to come up with and you don't want to penalize a guy for creating a great pumpkin brew because we didn't have the foresight to include a category for him.

 

[the_bird]

Can I back up for a second, to WAY back at the beginning?

I really liked the idea of this as a collaberation, not as a contest. I'd love to hear ideas, things that we might incorporate into other brews, not really trying to "win." I know that train has long left the station, I just wanted to put that out there....

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Can I back up for a second, to WAY back at the beginning?

I really liked the idea of this as a collaberation, not as a contest. I'd love to hear ideas, things that we might incorporate into other brews, not really trying to "win." I know that train has long left the station, I just wanted to put that out there....

I'm with you on that. But part of the process has to be actual brewing and experience.. not just throwing out ideas. I really WANT collaboration. But I think the best way to achieve it is to have a contest and then "publish" the recipes for all to see. Once everybody else can see what works and what doesn't, it should fuel greater collaboration in the future.

Don't think of the contest as an end unto itself. It's more like a kick-start to a period of greater knowledge from which we can collaborate further

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

I guess you're right.. it's a nice rule to have, but the more I think about it, I can't really say it's necessary.

I'm still not sold on the permitting of alcohol though...

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I'm with BP and bird on the required ingredients rule - I was just thinking about using natural cranberry juice as a bittering agent instead of hops. I'm also in agreement with them on the 1/4 oz - 1/4 lb rule - unnecessary.

I don't care either way about the "don't use vodka/spirits" rule - I like that it emphasizes using fermentables, but it does limit creativity.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

I'm gonna go brew something. I'll check back later. Hopefully more people will chime in...

I'm still on the fence about some of these things...

 

[jezter6]

I like that some of you guys are proposing rules modifications, but if you're saying that " I'm not going to do this anyways, but I think that..." it seems a little ... odd.

Nobody's ever going to agree on all the rules (I think). But if you're not planning on entering, why the fuss?

I definately think the requirement of each ingredient should be out. I like the idea of standard quantity measurements, but I can see where you guys are going with it and don't disagree.

I think that my 2nd rules post (after scratching out rules 1 and 2) should stand as the rules. Simple, quick, efficient.

I doubt there will be a lot of beers entered, so the subcategories are (IMHO) unnecessary. Not to mention, there is no category for most of this stuff. Cranberry Juice as a bittering agent? That won't fit in any style guideline anyway, and our goal was not to limit anyone to style guidelines. Although I agree, if there are enough entries in different categories to warrant them, I'd suggest: Best Lager. Best Light Ale. Best Dark Ale. I think we shouldn't worry about it till we see if we get more than 1 beer or any of those 3 'styles' anyway.

All I have to say is, at this point, I'm in. I've got a recipe formulated, and I'm looking at ways to tweak it. If we could get some rules done by 5pm Eastern, I'm going to the LHBS to buy some grains and try some 3gallon test batches.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Can we agree on this?

Two rules. Two freakin rules. And I subtracted 7 cents from each gallon to account for the fact that we aren't counting priming sugar or CO2.

The Rules

1. The limit for this year is (tentatively) set as follows:
$2.00 per gallon of beer made from extract
$1.73 per gallon made from a partial mash recipe
$1.23 per gallon made from all grain

If you go over the limit, points will be deducted

2. The brewer may buy his ingredients from any supplier and the actual price paid for these supplies is irrelevant. Your ingredient price is to be computed as the cost charged by (fill in the name of the sponsoring homebrew website here), not including shipping or taxes. In the event that this sponsor does not have your desired ingredient, you may use (insert the name of other homebrew sites here) to find the price. In the event that your desired ingredient is not available through any of these websites, peapod.com will be used. In the event that Peapod doesn’t have your ingredient, you must contact the judges for a ruling. All ingredients, regardless of source, will be deemed to have been purchased at the regular advertised price.

a. Extract. For Extract and Partial Mash Brewers, standard malts (DME or
LME) will be priced on the assumption that you are purchasing 25 pounds.
b. Grain. For All-Grain brewers, standard malts will be priced on the assumption that you are buying a 55lb bag.
c. Specialty grains. Specialty Grains will be priced by the pound.
d. Hops. All hops will be priced by the pound.
e. Other. Other ingredients (Irish moss, clarifying agent, etc) priced at the non-bulk pricing from the specified online retailers.
f. Priming sugar or CO2. Priming sugar or CO2 used for carbonation is free, as long as it's only added at bottling time.
g. Water. Water is a “free” ingredient. The brewer has the choice of using tap water, or else filtered water costing under $1.00 per gallon. Because water quality varies significantly, the purpose of this rule is to permit people living in locations with awful water to compete on a level playing field. Any use of mineral water, flavored water, or spring water that does not normally come out of the tap will require the brewer to include the entire cost of the water in his cost computation.
h. Yeast. The cost of the yeast shall be computed as per rule #1 except the cost of the yeast will then be divided by three to account for the possibility of repitching the yeast cake a time or two.
i. Time and Effort. No costs will be associated for any equipment/time/etc.

 

[jezter6]

Toot,

Use my point/price guidelines. Honestly, now that we're at $1.20 for AG...I think that's going to be a nigh unhittable mark with anything resembling beer or tasting even remotely better than a sweaty sock. Also, there are no rules as to how many points you get, and how much is deducted for every cent you are over the limit.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Toot,

Use my point/price guidelines. Honestly, now that we're at $1.20 for AG...I think that's going to be a nigh unhittable mark with anything resembling beer or tasting even remotely better than a sweaty sock. Also, there are no rules as to how many points you get, and how much is deducted for every cent you are over the limit.

I didn't realize you had changed them. Let me go look.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

5. Total cost per gallon must be below $3.40/gal. Each 10c below that gains an additional 1pt for AG/PM brews, 1.5 points for extract. (Those numbers are arbitrary)

6. Must be at least 3% ABV. For each 0.1 ABV you get 1 point. This goes for all types (AG/PM/extract).

7. You must submit a full recipe with your beer, including all ingredients, mash steps, projected OG, actual OG, projected FG, actual FG, ABV, IBU, cost of each ingredient, brewer name, contact information. An actual form will be created later to fill out and send.

Number 6 is perfect!

But you want $3.40 for ALL brewers? I don't think AGers spend that much making barleywine! We've GOT to have different standards for different brew techniques

And yeah. The recipe is required. But it should be in a sealed envelope so the judges aren't swayed by it until after tasting.

 

[jezter6]

Yes, that is the MINIMUM allowed for all brewers. As you can see, the farther you go under that, the more points you are awarded. Extracters get 50% more points than AG because it costs more to get lower.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

I believe there is now full agreement, insomuch as possible, on everything except the pricing guidelines.

In the previous thread, Orfy generated a simple prototype recipe that came in at $1.34. It was a 5 gallon basic beer recipe with no adventurous adjuncts to save money. He included .5lbs of dextrose which, I assumed (maybe wrongly?) was for priming sugar. at $1 per pound, 5 gallons, that's ten cents a gallon for the priming sugar which the rules have now changed to allow to be free. But I only subtracted 7 cents from the categories. So, actually, brewers are now 3 cents ahead (assuming you're going to bottle carbonate).

 

[the_bird]

I like that some of you guys are proposing rules modifications, but if you're saying that " I'm not going to do this anyways, but I think that..." it seems a little ... odd.

Frankly, it's the far-too-anal-about-the-"rules" that swayed me AWAY from participating. If its something clean, simple, and fairly judged (and with a reasonable cost limit, which I don't think the current price points are), I very well might send in an entry.

I still think you're coming at this with the attitude of "people are going to cheat any which way they can," which is dead wrong for the group of folks around here. I'm not sure that you get that. I can't think of anyone among the paying members (the people that have been around for a while and that I've gotten to know) who would not attack this contest according to both the letter and the spirit of the rules. That's just not how people operate around here.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Here's the reason I want different starting prices for different brewing methods:

I am not confident in my ability to determine what a fair multiplier is. You think 50% more points for extract brewers is fair, and it may be. But I am not confident in that.

I am, however, confident that we can agree on how much money is required for each brewer to purchase three-quarters of a pound of fermentable sugar (be it in extract or taken from grain) and a quarter of an ounce of hops (per gallon).

So that's where I'm thinking the price point should be. If you want any more fermentables or bittering, you'll have to get creative.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

bird- I don't think anybody brought up the word "cheating". In my mind, if it's not against the rules, then it's not cheating. However, some people may say that you are violating the "spirit" of the rules. Just like when you watch a basketball game, people have different ideas of what constitutes "unfair" play. It doesn't mean one opinion is more right than the other, but it does mean people will naturally tend to play under different rules.

When playing a "pick up" game of basketball, some people assume that some body checking and blocking out is part of the game. Others will get offended if you so much as touch them.

This isn't about avoiding cheaters. This is about making sure everyone is on the same page.

 

[jezter6]

Two Part Response:

Toot - I think you're aiming too low. If 3.41 as a max is too high, drop it down to $2, with bonus points for each 10c after that. I doubt many will be down in the 1.35 category, and frankly...I doubt that the 1.35 beer (let alone any below it) will taste good or even resemble beer.

bird - I don't think it's so much as assuming of cheating. I was hoping for a level playing field among new and old brewers. That, and each question about rules asked in the other thread seemed like it warranted some kind of rule. I may have gone overboard, and I do apologize to anyone who think's I'm a conspiracy nut for being so anal.

I've come to see that most people here probably would go in with the spirit of fairness in mind. Competitions inspire the best (and worst) in people...and it probably got the worst in me. So far, I've dropped every rule that has been opposed with a valid argument, so I don't think I've gone too far overboard.

Now, back to the rules...what about the price distinction are you unhappy with? I proposed the $3.41 rule, which I think was in the spirit of the original idea of - how can we make beer cheaper than them, and still taste good.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

I appreciate everyone's comments, both positive and negative. I appreciate peoples' support.

I would like to point out though that the point of this thread is, specifically, to DEBATE the rules. To decide what they are to be. This is not a thread to solicit people to join the challenge. That will come later. And the reason this is anal retentive is that it is a "rules committee"- or as much as you can have one without being exclusionary.

Once the rules are in place, explained, and presented, I'm sure everything will be much clearer. Right now, by the nature of this "work", we are dealing with a jumbled mess of conflicting and varying ideas.

So, bird, seriously... if you are turned off, just kick back, close the thread, and please reconsider once the rules are hashed out. If, on the other hand, you still might be interested under the right conditions, then by all means speak up. You will notice that the rules HAVE been getting shorter, as per your suggestions. People are heeding your advice. But don't expect it to happen the moment you speak. Sometimes people need to sort of ruminate on things before coming around...