2007 Lobuck Rules Committee

[jezter6]

Here's the reason I want different starting prices for different brewing methods:

I am not confident in my ability to determine what a fair multiplier is. You think 50% more points for extract brewers is fair, and it may be. But I am not confident in that.

I am, however, confident that we can agree on how much money is required for each brewer to purchase three-quarters of a pound of fermentable sugar (be it in extract or taken from grain) and a quarter of an ounce of hops (per gallon).

So that's where I'm thinking the price point should be. If you want any more fermentables or bittering, you'll have to get creative.

3/4 pound of 2-row is 0.375c
1/4 oz hops (bulk) is 0.18c

You telling me that 0.56c/gallon is your new target?

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Jezter-

When I originally conceived of the challenge, I thought $3.41 made a lot of sense. And then I realized just how ridiculously easy that would be. Sure, it wouldn't make great, incredibly flavorful beer. However, it would make an adequate brew with little difficulty. And, certainly, there is a place for a contest like that. However, my aim is something darker. Something more depraved and sinister. Something which will eat at the souls of beer judges everywhere!

The way I came to the $2 limit for X brewers was something sort of like this: I asked, "what's the minimum you need to brew a traditional, drinkable, beer?" Then I subtracted a bit from that to force creativity.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

3/4 pound of 2-row is 0.375c
1/4 oz hops (bulk) is 0.18c

You telling me that 0.56c/gallon is your new target?

Not exactly.. but it's a good way of looking at it...

Ever since I chucked the $3.41 concept (that's before I even posted the orig. thread, btw). the price of grain/DME and hops has been what I use as my mental guidepost. That's how I realized that $3.41 was too high- it enabled you to buy far far too many ingredients.

and I think I said 3/4 pound of fermentables. Not 3/4 pounds of grain. To get 3/4 pounds of fermentable sugar, you'll need over a full pound of grain. That's the advantage, and disadvantage, of all grain.

Here's what I propose you, or anyone else, do when trying to figure out what would be a fair guideline for determining limits:

Create the simplest light beer recipe you can imagine. Maybe 1 pound LME, one ounce of hops. That should be the limit. Then, for All-Grainers, do the same thing.. the problem though is that grain is SO cheap, there's not much that is cheaper, so while taking away a fraction of a pound from an extract brewer will allow a lot of flexibility, it won't work that way for all-grainers who are paying only pennies to produce their fermentables.

 

[jezter6]

Agreed, you can make a traditional, drinkable, beer for less. But how low do you really want that max to be? Once it's 80% sugar adjuncts, it's (IMHO) no longer beer.

I think $2 is reasonable. I would not go any lower than that for the 'max' limit. People will get creatively low, but you want room to foster GOOD beer, which costs that extra 9c per gallon over the other guy who just chose to sugar the heck out of it.

Maybe move the price point schedule down to every 5c.

From what I've read on the net...DME bulk is 5x as expensive as grain bulk. Should they get 5x the points? I don't think so...considering that when you shave .5 pounds of grain off an AG recpie and an AG recipe, the AG guy only nets a 5c savings, where as the DME guy saves 25c per gallon.

 

[jezter6]

Not exactly.. but it's a good way of looking at it...

Ever since I chucked the $3.41 concept (that's before I even posted the orig. thread, btw). the price of grain/DME and hops has been what I use as my mental guidepost. That's how I realized that $3.41 was too high- it enabled you to buy far far too many ingredients.

and I think I said 3/4 pound of fermentables. Not 3/4 pounds of grain. To get 3/4 pounds of fermentable sugar, you'll need over a full pound of grain. That's the advantage, and disadvantage, of all grain.

Here's what I propose you, or anyone else, do when trying to figure out what would be a fair guideline for determining limits:

Create the simplest light beer recipe you can imagine. Maybe 1 pound LME, one ounce of hops. That should be the limit. Then, for All-Grainers, do the same thing.. the problem though is that grain is SO cheap, there's not much that is cheaper, so while taking away a fraction of a pound from an extract brewer will allow a lot of flexibility, it won't work that way for all-grainers who are paying only pennies to produce their fermentables.

nevermind. I'm an idiot.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Agreed, you can make a traditional, drinkable, beer for less. But how low do you really want that max to be? Once it's 80% sugar adjuncts, it's (IMHO) no longer beer.

I agree. We need to allow people to use enough fermentables to make a decent little beer. And if they can go beyond that using creativity, then that is awesome and they will be competitive in the competition.

I think $2 is reasonable. I would not go any lower than that for the 'max' limit. People will get creatively low, but you want room to foster GOOD beer, which costs that extra 9c per gallon over the other guy who just chose to sugar the heck out of it.

Again, I agree. The only hitch is the fact that, until I call potential sponsors, I won't know what the price of LME is. On morebeer.com, they sell it bulk for $2.00. On northernbrewers, they sell it bulk for $2.50. That's a 25% swing. I'm still struggling to preserve some "wiggle room" in that limit until we have the sponsorship thing figured out. And I'm not talking about fancy banners or anything. Just a little increased traffic and positive PR in exchange for maybe a $25 gift certificate or something.

Maybe move the price point schedule down to every 5c.

Why not a point deducted for every 3 cents over, and a point added for every penny below. That way people won't stress so much about going over, but will have a huge incentive for going cheaper... if they can. Of course though, taste will be the most important factor regardless.

From what I've read on the net...DME bulk is 5x as expensive as grain bulk. Should they get 5x the points? I don't think so...considering that when you shave .5 pounds of grain off an AG recpie and an AG recipe, the AG guy only nets a 5c savings, where as the DME guy saves 25c per gallon.

Exactly! That's what we're struggling against. That's why I think using different starting points for AG,PM, and X makes a lot of sense.




And....



At the end of the day, who really cares? It's our first attempt at this, it's all in fun, and next time (if there is a next time), we can take all the criticisms and complaints and improve. There's something to be said about having participated in the "First Inaugural" even if the rules are a little wonky. At least we're doing our best.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Well, jezter, it sounds like you're looking at it differently now. FWIW, I wholly agree with a lot of your improvements and this shouldn't be a contest to see who can outlast the other at the keyboard.

But I think I explained some things which I hadn't put forth explicitly before. Although I was looking at the cost of producing a simple beer, I don't think I actually stated that that's how I was coming up with my numbers. Sorry for the confusion.

Anyway, now that I think we're sort of on the same page, what's your take on......

$2.00 per gallon of beer made from extract
$1.73 per gallon made from a partial mash recipe
$1.23 per gallon made from all grain


(and, btw, if the cost of LME winds up being $2.50 rather than $2.00, I would bump the X category by a dime and the PM category by maybe 5 cents to compensate)


I still want your thoughts...

 

[jezter6]

Well, jezter, it sounds like you're looking at it differently now. FWIW, I wholly agree with a lot of your improvements and this shouldn't be a contest to see who can outlast the other at the keyboard.

But I think I explained some things which I hadn't put forth explicitly before. Although I was looking at the cost of producing a simple beer, I don't think I actually stated that that's how I was coming up with my numbers. Sorry for the confusion.

Anyway, now that I think we're sort of on the same page, what's your take on......

$2.00 per gallon of beer made from extract
$1.73 per gallon made from a partial mash recipe
$1.23 per gallon made from all grain

I still want your thoughts...

How do you come up with those figures? I think it keeps getting more and more unrealistic the lower you are going. Make the figure HIGH to start, and give points for going under. Nobody is going to make a $1.23 beer. That's my thoughts. I think that bird even said price is one of his other big contentions.

Can you explain your numbers, maybe we can see how you think $1.23 is going to work?

 

[Orfy]

The sugars were to give a lighter body but higher abv without imparting too much taste.
I think $1.34 is achievable and should give a drinkable beer.

0 points at $1.34 - for above and + for below.

 

[jezter6]

Toot's the head guru of this thing, so I say screw it. Put a price and move on. If people don't like the price, they won't enter.

I will say that at the proposed price of $1.23, I will most likely not be entering.

 

[Orfy]

I'll have a go but I won't be entering due to around 3000 long reasons.
The $1.34 is based on a solid recipe, not sure where the $1.23 is coming from.
I'd just be reducing quality to meet the lower price.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

How do you come up with those figures? I think it keeps getting more and more unrealistic the lower you are going. Make the figure HIGH to start, and give points for going under. Nobody is going to make a $1.23 beer. That's my thoughts. I think that bird even said price is one of his other big contentions.

Can you explain your numbers, maybe we can see how you think $1.23 is going to work?

Ok. Here's another reason I'm not too concerned about it.

Since we are awarding points for going under the limit and subtracting points, rather than disqualifying people, for going over it, the scale is meaningless.

We can set the limit at $400 per gallon and give a point for every penny below and people will just have really high scores. Or set the limit at a penny, deduct for going over, and people will have really low scores.

The only reason it matters is as a target- as something to shoot for. Initially, I had conceived of this as a hard limit- thou shalt not exceed whatever amount. But now that we've agreed it'd be better to have a soft limit, I decided it wouldn't hurt to lower the amount.

Let's assume that a great beer will garner a hundred points. Let's assume that 33 of the points come from the cost factor. If nobody hits the target, then nobody gets a perfect 100. That doesn't mean there won't be a winner. It just means that there is still something to strive for next time.

 

[Orfy]

Agreed -

I was just wondering if the amount was set on a "realistic brew"
Is everyone going to hold the recipes close or release them for others to try?

 

[dantodd]

I'd recommend 3 rules

1) beer must be brewed for
$X/gal for extract brewers
$X/gal for PM brewers
$X/gal for AG brewers
You go over, don't bother entering. You go under, good for you, no extra points.
(we can fight about the amounts after the sponsorship is resolved)

2) Beer must be in one of the following BJCP styles:
10A American Pale Ale
10B American Amber Ale
10C American Brown Ale
13A Dry Stout
(keeping it ales because lagering is going to be difficult for most folks and the results are wildly different than an ale) If we have enough interest we certainly could add an 1B American Lager category

3) The brewer may buy his ingredients from any supplier and the actual price paid for these supplies is irrelevant. Your ingredient price is to be computed as the cost charged by (fill in the name of the sponsoring homebrew website here), not including shipping or taxes. In the event that this sponsor does not have your desired ingredient, you may use (insert the name of other homebrew sites here) to find the price. In the event that your desired ingredient is not available through any of these websites, peapod.com will be used. In the event that Peapod doesn’t have your ingredient, you must contact the judges for a ruling. All ingredients, regardless of source, will be deemed to have been purchased at the regular advertised price.

a. Extract. For Extract and Partial Mash Brewers, standard malts (DME or
LME) will be priced on the assumption that you are purchasing 25 pounds.
b. Grain. For All-Grain brewers, standard malts will be priced on the assumption that you are buying a 55lb bag.
c. Specialty grains. Specialty Grains will be priced by the pound.
d. Hops. All hops will be priced by the pound.
e. Other. Other ingredients (Irish moss, clarifying agent, etc) priced at the non-bulk pricing from the specified online retailers.
f. Priming sugar or CO2. Priming sugar or CO2 used for carbonation is free, as long as it's only added at bottling time.
g. Water. Water is a “free” ingredient. The brewer has the choice of using tap water, or else filtered water costing under $1.00 per gallon. Because water quality varies significantly, the purpose of this rule is to permit people living in locations with awful water to compete on a level playing field. Any use of mineral water, flavored water, or spring water that does not normally come out of the tap will require the brewer to include the entire cost of the water in his cost computation.
h. Yeast. The cost of the yeast shall be computed as per rule #1 except the cost of the yeast will then be divided by three to account for the possibility of repitching the yeast cake a time or two.
i. Time and Effort. No costs will be associated for any equipment/time/etc.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Ok. I think I have everyone's input. Semi-final rules will be posted tomorrow.

I presently have had one person contact me to volunteer as a judge. He is a very well-respected member of HBT and, if you don't know who he is yet, I am sure you will be pleasantly surprised.

I would, however, like another volunteer... or two... to serve as a judge. On the plus side, you will get to drink some beer. On the downside, some of it may suck. On the up side, you will get some beer. On the downside, you will be expected to write about a one page "book report" on each one and fill out some papers. On the plus side, you will get some beer. On the downside, you'll probably have to spend an hour or two working on guidelines for us as judges.

Any volunteers?


Finally, I appreciate everyone's suggestions. I think EVERYONE has had some suggestions that have resulted in my adjusting the rules to their point of view. And I think that everyone has also had some suggestions rejected for reasons that, I hope, they can at least understand... even if they don't agree with it. In other words, I've tried to be open minded and I honestly believe I have been very deferential to others with strong opinions and I have even gone so far as to "back down" on rules where I was in the minority... even if I don't believe the change was for the best. Hopefully, my concerns in those cases will prove unfounded and I will be proven wrong in those cases where I disagree. In short, we have the perfect camel- a horse designed by committee. And when the rules come out, I assure you, nobody will be happy- myself included. That, they say, is the sign of a good compromise. I hope you agree on that much.

Thanks again.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

The idea of making 5 gallons of beer I'd actually want to consume for less than the cost of a typical six pack is mind boggling.

Whoa whoa whoa! Who's talking about making 5 gallons of this junk??!!!! :cross:

I'm only going to make 1 or 1.5 gallon batches. The ingredients are probably going to get "nipped" from other recipes.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

OK, so no one has to make 5 gallons of it, but I guess I thought the objective was to make good beer for a low price. That is how I interpreted this:

If it's good beer that would prove the points above, why wouldn't you make 10 or 20 gallons of it, once you nailed the recipe?

Well, sure.. once you nailed the recipe, you may decide to replicate it in larger quantities. Or, you might decide to tweak it without regard to the rules. That's up to you.

You are correct that the objective is to make GOOD beer for a low price. But, let's face it- it's going to be a challenge. There will be stumbles along the way. By no means would I suggest anybody tie up a 6.5 gallon fermenter for a few weeks to complete this project. Start small, experiment, when you get something good, brew a small batch for judging. Or, if you like, go larger.

 

[the_bird]

A couple of final thoughts:

If all the prices are based on those fixed sources, people cannot get creative with how they acquire their ingredients. If someone has the means to buy raw barley, malt it, and use it, why not? If someone finds out that an Asian grocery store carries a particular "secret" ingredient, or can get usable malt extract from a bakery supply place at very low cost, isn't that a legitimate way of cleverly achieving the objective?

The cost point, IMHO, has gotten so low as to be ridiculous. For AG guys, it's really got nothing to do with ingredients, it's all about process; how can you get the highest possible efficiency out of your grain? Sparge forever, then do an eight hour boil? If it's not realistic to end up with GOOD beer (not just a passable beer-like product), I don't see the point.

Anyway, cool idea, I just disagree with how you're putting it together. Good luck!

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

The point is to create replicable recipes. If I can piss Guinness and use that as my recipe, that's really not useful to other brewers who don't happen to piss Guinness. So, if you've got some secret ingredient, or some killer hops growing in your backyard, that recipe is useless to everyone else. This is what separates my challenge from most beer competitions. In this case, it's as much about the recipe as it is about the finished product. I think the judges will be looking for a certain thought process that shows promise for future brews... a recipe that tastes good enough that people will want to expand upon it.

Notice too though that I did say that for other ingredients, the judges will make a ruling. And I mean that. If you find something at an asian grocery store, tell me how much you paid. I live in Chicago and have friends that speak Cantonese, Mandarin, and Japanese. I have a Korean friend too. One way or another, I'll find a way to ensure that the price you paid is in the ballpark and the judges will approve it.

Thanks for the inputs. I'm still going back and forth on the exact price point, but rest assured, nobody will be kicked out of the competition, or even lose it, simply for going over the limits. For all we know, the winner will be the guy who spent the extra $0.40 a gallon, but came up with a brew that didn't taste like crap. Who knows....


But that's why I'm calling it a "Challenge" rather than a "Competition". To me, at least, I think the difference in meaning is significant.

 

[Brewiz]

I got on this tread a little late and I love the idea but, why would I want to make a beer that even comes close to something I refuse to drink (i.e BMC)?? Why not make something that is comparable to Sam Adams, Sierra or great regional micro's that we all love to enjoy. I don't feel like I have to justify my homebrew in cost or any other reason to the majors but more to the regional/micro's.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

I got on this tread a little late and I love the idea but, why would I want to make a beer that even comes close to something I refuse to drink (i.e BMC)?? Why not make something that is comparable to Sam Adams, Sierra or great regional micro's that we all love to enjoy. I don't feel like I have to justify my homebrew in cost or any other reason to the majors but more to the regional/micro's.

Assuming you're an extract brewer... Are you absolutely confident that you need to spend $30-40 per kit to get a good finished product? Are you certain that there aren't ways of producing a BETTER product for less money? If such techniques or approaches exist, I ask you: What are they?

If you do not know, and I do not know, then don't you think we ought to find out? And do you think people will voluntarily try to discover radical techniques and recipes on their own for no reason? Or do you think such techniques and recipes are more likely to come about from a friendly challenge/competition?

That's what I'm getting at.... It's just an opportunity to experiment in ways that most people wouldn't be inclined to otherwise do on their own.

 

[Brewiz]

Assuming you're an extract brewer... Are you absolutely confident that you need to spend $30-40 per kit to get a good finished product? Are you certain that there aren't ways of producing a BETTER product for less money? If such techniques or approaches exist, I ask you: What are they?

If you do not know, and I do not know, then don't you think we ought to find out? And do you think people will voluntarily try to discover radical techniques and recipes on their own for no reason? Or do you think such techniques and recipes are more likely to come about from a friendly challenge/competition?

That's what I'm getting at.... It's just an opportunity to experiment in ways that most people wouldn't be inclined to otherwise do on their own.

I am an AG'er and I agree with Bird's last post. I brew because I love the taste of beer and because I can make the kind I like cheaper than the $8 plus I would have to pay for what I like to drink. And I buy my grain in bulk, my hops by the pound and get my yeast from a local brewery who will also on occasion give me everything I need.

 

[jezter6]

I got on this tread a little late and I love the idea but, why would I want to make a beer that even comes close to something I refuse to drink (i.e BMC)?? Why not make something that is comparable to Sam Adams, Sierra or great regional micro's that we all love to enjoy. I don't feel like I have to justify my homebrew in cost or any other reason to the majors but more to the regional/micro's.

The point is to make the best drinkable beer you can, at the lowest price you can without sacrificing taste. No cloning BMC. You're free to 'clone' whatever brew you want, the point is to make it as cheap as you can.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

I got in a bad car wreck yesterday evening so the rules may be a little slower in coming than I anticipated. Typing is a real bitch. But the rules will be coming soon.

Sorry for the delay

 

[Brewpastor]

Bad news! I hope you are OK. Hang in there.

 

[Brewiz]

I got in a bad car wreck yesterday evening so the rules may be a little slower in coming than I anticipated. Typing is a real bitch. But the rules will be coming soon.

Sorry for the delay

Man that sucks!!!
Are you ok? Was any of your family with you and are they ok?

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

I was alone in the car. I was doing the 75th percentile speed (about 73mph) at the time. Dan Ryan Expressway, around 63rd street. In other words, I would've had to been doing about an extra 6 to 10 miles an hour if I wanted to even think about getting into the left lane. Yes, I was speeding, but welcome to Chicago. My speed was commensurate with traffic and conditions, including the speed of the cars around me.

I got cut off by a car on the freeway, swerved to avoid it, and lost traction. The car oversteered to the left, I countersteered to correct it. I over corrected and it went to the right. Countersteered again, went left. Countersteered again, went right. With each oscillation I was getting it more under control. The cars behind me all had slammed on their brakes and I had 4 lanes to work with. I was quite certain I could get the car straightened out... except...

There was a woman 30 yards ahead of me and one lane over. She decided to slam on her brakes to watch me fishtail. She slowed down enough that I caught up to her while sideways and wound up broadsiding her at about 50mph. Yup. She actually slowed down enough so that I caught her while I was sideways.


And the insurance says: My fault. both cars are coming out of my insurance since I failed to actually have any contact with the car that cut me off and I was the one that was out of control.

I have what feels like a sprained finger and I threw up this morning. I've also been tired, but then I was up very late because of all this so that could explain the tiredness and it was all pretty intense.

 

[MattD]

So sorry to hear about your wreck! I hope you get to feeling better.

Did you get any sort of medical attention? I might be a little concerned about a concussion if you hit your head and have had nausea/vomiting, if you need to go see a doctor make sure you don't wait till things get worse! Either way, get to feeling better, and a pox on rubberneckers, especially when they make the accident worse!

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

I've called the onine brewshops and asked for a sponsorshop and will hear something tomorrow, I presume. The whole emergency room thing kinda put a crimp in most of my plans. But the rules are coming along. I will announce them along with the sponsor, and the prizes, and the beer judges tomorrow.

And, by the way, I'd like another beer judge if possible, so please PM me if you'd be interested. As it is developing, the contest is evolving to more promote cheap GOOD beers so I really don't believe the judges will have to sit through mouthfuls of swill. It should all be pretty good.

And thanks for the concern, Matt. I did see a doc today, got some Xrays. All is fine. No broken bones, just some impressive bruises and I've got a friend (an orthotech) who is going to look over the Xrays tomorrow for a second opinion. I really think the nausea was just due to a little over excitement. I've felt fine since.

Thanks for everything, folks.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

No word on the sponsorships. I started a new job and the 90+ minute commute each way, plus an intense learning regimen has been kicking my butt. Additionally, since I'm in a cast and my typing sucks, I've been DREADING the task of going through the rules and finalizing them. Then there's my dyiong grandfather that took up quite a bit of time this weekend, but that's how life goes, eh?

Anyway, I apologize for the delays, but I am posting this to say that I'm scaling back things a little, easing up the rules, and will just try to get something finished up in the next hour or so. Sorry for all the delays.


Cheers!