20 lb of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient

[Mothman]

I tackled my first attempt at this syrup for an upcoming Caramel Amber Ale, and it didn't go quite right. lol

I'm assuming my candy thermometer is inaccurate, but anyway... I was aiming for the 290F version, making a half batch, so halved all the ingredients.

Initial boil, as I approached around 270F or so, I thought to myself that it was looking like a nice deep red, maybe I should stop, but decided to continue to 290F.

I then added the prescribed water, stirring until it was all dissolved, and at that point it looked quite dark... varying to my eyes between a VERY dark red to a black, maybe a bit of dark, DARK brown.

I reheated until the thermometer was just shy of 240, then cooled in a cold water bath for a few moments, then poured into a mason jar.

The resulting "syrup" is actually fudge, a soft brick in the jar, it's malleable, but just barely. And it's the color of dark peanut butter. All of the red, and black, that I saw as it was boiling disappeared once cooled.

I'm still going to use it, as the taste is quite good... I'm still picking up the described caramel, raisin, plum, etc. I'll have to reheat the jar in a hot water bath to get it out for brew day, but I'm sure it'll work fine.

Any ideas on what happened?

I would say my thermometer is off, and I was actually at too high of a temperature (overshooting the second boil to 240F would explain the solid nature of the final product, rather than a syrup)... but if I was too hot through the process, I also would have expected black 'fudge'... not peanut butter coloured fudge.

 

[Mothman]

So I couldn't live with my failed first attempt, so did another batch.

I used a different pot, one that is a little smaller diameter, so the syrup had more depth... not sure if that mattered.

I also used slightly higher heat, as the first one, I was super careful and it took quite a while to reach temps, and I didn't want this 2nd attempt to take as long.

I heated to about 250F, at which point I noticed the top of the solution was starting to crystallize, as it was boiling. Colour was still a light amber color. At about 260F it was really looking chunky, still an amber color, so I used a spoon to slightly stir it and was shocked to find that the solution was really dense, like pretty much all of the water had boiled off. I quickly added a couple table spoons of water, and stirred it in, and then saw that the bottom of the solution was almost black... I'm gathering maybe the higher heat I used had boiled off the water too quick and so it wasn't able to mix itself up with proper convection.

Anyway, I quickly poured in the rest of the second water addition, and stirred it all up, and it ended up a great color! Dark, brown, with a bit of a red tinge when the light shines through it. I'd call it a burnt umber.

So reheated again, but this time I stopped once a drop from a spoon onto a room temp surface stayed as a drop, rather than flattening. I think it was around 225 or 230F when I stopped.

The resulting syrup is still liquid, which is what I wanted the first time, will be way easier to use than my previous peanut butter fudge chunk. In the jar it looks black, but in smaller amounts it is that nice burnt umber color.

The taste on this second attempt is different too. I can't decide which of the two attempts I prefer, but I'll use the 2nd attempt in the beer, and maybe the fudge chunk as a coffee sweetener.

 

[IslandLizard]

Once it gets past amber you need to go really slow. It's the time spent at those amber temps that yields flavor and complexity, IOW, keeping it at 240-260F for half an hour or an hour gives most flavor and only darkens slightly compared to going to higher temps any sooner.

A tall, narrow, thick bottomed pot is best IMO as it evaporates slower and has less surface exposed to direct heat (the bottom) where most darkening (burning, pyrolysis) takes place. The melanoidin reactions we're after happen within the foaming and bubbling medium. I keep adding a half tablespoon of cold water at a time when I see the foaming change appearance. Even with a Thermapen, readings in that syrupy medium are not all that exact, they tend to vary widely wherever the readings are taken. So take a few in different places and average them in your mind.
I keep putting a drop on a piece of aluminum foil every 3-5 minutes to keep track of progress.

Once the amber stage has completed to your satisfaction, you can let the temps rise slowly by slowing down or decreasing the water additions.

2 or 3 pounds of sugar seems to work best for me, anything less ended up darkening too fast before getting good flavor. That's why I think the bubbling medium needs ample volume to do it's magic, and lower temps for longer times helps with that.

D-90 is very attainable, much higher takes experience
I did get some (unintended) darker syrup one time that actually tasted really good. It has the color of "D-120-140" and doesn't taste burnt.

I always add the syrup to fermenting beer after the peak is over, when fermentation starts to slow down a bit. It will kick up again. I do not use secondaries!

 

[IslandLizard]

I think I mentioned this a good year or so back, I do not use water anymore for syrups. I use beer wort, much more complexity!

 

[eimar]

Ok, so couldn't get refined cane sugar so I ditched my plan fora side by side science tastic experiment and went with my usual cooks approach mixing educated guesses with "sensory data". (Eyes and nose to non scientists.
Probably because it was unrefined there were some problems with it foaming and recrystaizing at about 260 as you can see at the beige droplet. I added some cold water and stirred and it cleared as it came back up to temperature.
Fructose starts to caramalise much earlier than glucose which starts at around 260 and as this is the point at which I observed the most change I decided to keep cooling with water and reheating to around this point to avoid burnt flavours and coax out as much flavour as possible constantly smirking and tasting the syrup to avoid burnt flavours. As soon as I detected harsh notes I added water taking it back to somewhere around 240.
Highest i went up to was around 275 on the second reheat.
Plum gave way to cherry/maraschino which have way to a woody smokiness which reminded me of childhood saunas in Finland.
Scared of making the same mistake as yesterday I would add water again and again to take the temp back down, but all stages of heating changed the flavour.
Finally I percieved that the plum flavour was disappearing so i stopped, but when I added the syrup toa little water and tasted it out was still there in a big way along with the woodier notes and some inviting sharpness.
Reassured that it wasn't burning I took it back up to about 270 and dropped it to 240 again. In all it was probably about6 cycles. Tastes pretty great. Looks similar to the double cooked recipe that ended up too burnt tasting but is more translucent and red rather than brown/black.
Also mixed both syrups in water which is interesting. The burnt sugar as an interesting edge that might do well in a porter or stout replacing black malt.View attachment 596105 View attachment 596106

It looks good. thank you for sharing your experiment.

 

[eimar]

I think I mentioned this a good year or so back, I do not use water anymore for syrups. I use beer wort, much more complexity!

Interesting, how do you make the wort? just with water and malt extract ? O.G. of the wort ?

 

[IslandLizard]

Interesting, how do you make the wort? just with water and malt extract ? O.G. of the wort ?

I usually save a quart or 2 out when I brew a Belgian or other beer I need syrup for. It leaves a little more headspace which can be welcome at that time.

If I'm using them in a few days I store them in the fridge, otherwise in the freezer. I also use the saved wort to dilute the syrup(s) so I can pour them into the fermenter more easily and do so when fermentation has slowed down a bit. That also tops up my (plastic bucket) fermenter somewhat so I'll actually get 5 gallons in my keg, later.

Only use light to (dark) amber wort. Don't use highly hopped or dark, roasty wort for syrups!

But yeah, you could use DME, or LME. I prefer Amber wort that has some crystal/cara in it.
I've been thinking of adding an amino acid mix for even more complexity in the Maillard reactions. Haven't found a source yet. No, Marmite won't do, but a little MSG might. It doesn't need much.

Wort gravity is usually 1.060-1.080, but I've used higher, more pre-condensed wort too. When you heat the sugar and wort, water evaporates first, condensing it basically until you reach your syrup's first cooking temperature stage.

I really like the light pink syrup generated early by the lower temps. You can cook that low and slow for 30 minutes and keep the light color by adding a few drops of water every minute or so. That's my "D-2" I use wherever light candi syrup or plain sugar can be used.

 

[Mothman]

I just wanted to update my attempts at the syrup as per the OP recipe.

As I stated earlier, my first attempt turned into a solid, barely malleable, mass of peanut butter-looking fudge.

I was going to keep it in the fridge and use as a coffee syrup or similar, but realizing it was going to be a pain in the butt to use (hard to scoop) I decided to try redissolving it and turning it back into a syrup.

I warmed up the jar in a hot water bath until I was able to get most of it scooped out into a pot, used a bit of hot water in the jar to get the rest out, then added that sugar water into the pot with the rest of the lumps, added a little more water, and re-heated to dissolve it all. Then I reheated back up to about 225F then took off the heat.

It turned it from looking like a slightly dark, solid, peanut butter brick, into a thick, but pourable, syrup, with a beautiful dark red color.

So, in case it helps anyone else, if you overshoot the second heating step, and the product hardens up to much, you can re-dissolve it and it should be fine.

Really interesting how it is this dark, rich red while in a syrup form, but heating it up too much then letting it harden turns it into a dull brown color.

The flavour difference between this one and my more successful second attempt is really interesting too.

The 2nd one, the one that I did "right", has a nice caramel flavour, paired with some bright, fruity, sweetness... I'd almost call it a 'bright' sweetness.

The 1st attempt, that I recooked, has a similar caramel flavour, but the accompanying sweetness is more mellow and subdued, and no real fruit notes.

 

[eimar]

Only use light to (dark) amber wort. Don't use highly hopped or dark, roasty wort for syrups!

But yeah, you could use DME, or LME. I prefer Amber wort that has some crystal/cara in it.
I've been thinking of adding an amino acid mix for even more complexity in the Maillard reactions. Haven't found a source yet. No, Marmite won't do, but a little MSG might. It doesn't need much.

Wort gravity is usually 1.060-1.080, but I've used higher, more pre-condensed wort too. When you heat the sugar and wort, water evaporates first, condensing it basically until you reach your syrup's first cooking temperature stage.

I really like the light pink syrup generated early by the lower temps. You can cook that low and slow for 30 minutes and keep the light color by adding a few drops of water every minute or so. That's my "D-2" I use wherever light candi syrup or plain sugar can be used.

Thank you for the details.

 

[Stand]

I just completed a second round of this, and I love the product. I've been adding 1/2 Tbs. of DME and I like the product better, but it keeps crystalizing.

Based on what I've read here I have 3 ideas about how to deal with this, and I was wondering if anyone has tried them.

1) Take sugar syrup to 290 before dropping it down to around 240 and adding DAP then.

2) Adding cream of tartar and taking to 260-275 and holding in that range for 20 minutes before dropping temp and adding DAP.

3) Using a percentage of Dextrose instead of sugar to help keep it shelf-stable.

Thoughts?

 

[IslandLizard]

Thoughts?

• Do you scrape the crystals that form above the boil line back into your syrup after turning the heat off? That would create nucleation sites for further crystallization.
• I scrape them off and add them back to the bubbling syrup, periodically, to dissolve them again.
• DAP needs to be added at the onstart, it supplies the amino acid, needed for the Maillard reactions. That's why I use wort as it has more different ones (FAN content).

 

[Stand]

• Do you scrape the crystals that form above the boil line back into your syrup after turning the heat off? That would create nucleation sites for further crystallization.
• I scrape them off and add them back to the bubbling syrup, periodically, to dissolve them again.
• DAP needs to be added at the onstart, it supplies the amino acid, needed for the Maillard reactions. That's why I use wort as it has more different ones (FAN content).

I do scrape it periodically as I boil, but not after turning off the heat.

Adding DAP at the onset caused some problems for me, so I don't do that. The first problem is that it's volatizing and filling my kitchen with ammonia which I don't love. The other problem is that I can't make a crystal-free syrup with a lighter color when I add the DAP that early.

I want to invert a larger percentage of the syrup before trying to get the Maillard reactions started. The method I'll outline here utilizes the ammonia as soon as it is added, so you don't need to use as much, and it doesn't end up in the air. I did a bunch of research, but I have since forgotten why this works. It does work though!

DME seems like a really good option as well, but I haven't tried it alone.

I've worked this recipe a couple of times since I last posted, and I think I've worked out a procedure that creates exactly what I want in a reasonable time-frame.

The picture here is a batch I made about 3 months ago, and you can see there are a few crystals just starting to form on the bottom. That was with a 20 minute hold in the 260-275 range. I've since increased that to 30 minutes and eliminated the problem.

Belgian Candi Syrup Recipe:
Ingredients:

4# White Sugar
1# Dextrose (Corn Sugar)
1 1/2 Cups Water
1/2 tsp. Cream of Tartar

1 Cup Water
2 tsp. DME
1 tsp. Diammonium Phosphate


Put Sugar, Dextrose, Water and cream of tartar together in a pot and bring to 260 degrees. Hold between 260 and 275 for 30 minutes.

While sugar is heating dissolve 2 tsps. of Dry Malt Extract and 1 tsp of Di-ammonium Phosphate to 1 cup of water and set aside.*

After 30 minutes raise temperature between 290-300 and then SLOWLY add water/DME/DAP solution to syrup to start the Maillard reactions and drop temperature (It should drop close to 240). Add additional water until temperature is 240. Use less solution for less color.

Continue boiling slowly until desired color is reached and then add water to drop to 240 degrees again. Fills two quart mason jars.

*Note: You can add less or more of this solution depending on what you are trying to make. I tend to have both water and DAP/DME/water solution, so that I can adjust as I need while still dropping to 240.

 

[eimar]

Pefect way to make candi syrup ? I'm confused. The way I understand is that Maillard reactions need reducing sugars but sucrose is not. So should we produce the candi syrup in 2 steps?
1) invert the sucrose: mix sucrose, water, citric acid ( or lemon juice ) and slowly heat to reach 114° C.
2) add DAP and proceed following the great instructions on page 1 and 2 of this thread

As one can see on my avatar picture, I like candi syrup.

Santé
Jacques

 

[IslandLizard]

Pefect way to make candi syrup ? I'm confused. The way I understand is that Maillard reactions need reducing sugars but sucrose is not. So should we produce the candi syrup in 2 steps?
1) invert the sucrose: mix sucrose, water, citric acid ( or lemon juice ) and slowly heat to reach 114° C.
2) add DAP and proceed following the great instructions on page 1 and 2 of this thread

As one can see on my avatar picture, I like candi syrup.

Santé
Jacques

Sugar has its own branch of science. It's that big!

Here's different and very good source on making candi sugar:
http://ryanbrews.blogspot.com/2012/02/candy-syrup-right-way-hint-weve-been.html

 

[eimar]

IslandLizard , thank you for the link it confirms that sugar production is vastly complex.
My favourite recipe from SnickASaurusRex is the deep amber. The only way to know is to brew it as described then produce a 2nd batch with an inverting step before proceeding to the normal recipe.

Jacques
Santé

 

[Stand]

I have made Candi Syrups in a lot of different ways. It isn't hard to make something nice.

My goal was to make something that combines the flavors of a slightly caramelized invert syrup (mostly fructose due to lower carmelization temp), with the Maillard flavors I was getting in the original recipes (I like both).

I mostly make Belgian beers, so I use a lot of this syrup. This is my favorite recipe to date.

Cheers!

 

[milclaw]

I've been following this thread for a long time and could never get the caramel syrup recipe to come up, I'm excited to make these and add to my next amber ale. Thanks for posting the recipes!

 

[eimar]

I've been following this thread for a long time and could never get the caramel syrup recipe to come up, I'm excited to make these and add to my next amber ale. Thanks for posting the recipes!

milclaw, it is easy to make candi syrup. The seret ingredient is "patience" .

 

[cmac62]

Subbed so I know where I can find the thread when I go to make this. I have the surgar and DAP, but I need to order a candy thermo.

 

[IslandLizard]

Subbed so I know where I can find the thread when I go to make this. I have the surgar and DAP, but I need to order a candy thermo.

If you don't have a Thermapen yet, I can recommend buying one at some point. Once I did, I feel I bought it 10 years too late.
They go on sale and they also do "open box" sales at times. Sign up for their email to get those notifications and discount codes.

Once I started using the much faster reacting and more precise Thermapen, the syrups have become more consistent and predictable.

Notes:

• I always make a double, 2 pound, batch in a narrow, tallish pot. The larger volume and height helps with extended cooking times, and keeping the temps more consistent. Easier to stir and measure temps, too.
• Use a stainless spoon to stir/scrape, not a plastic one. Syrups are much hotter than water, >260F, doh!
• Adding a tablespoon of water to the cooking syrup from time to time prevents it from getting too hot (and too dark) too quickly. The longer you keep it between 250-270F the more good caramel flavor develops.

 

[eimar]

"Maillard reaction is strongly influenced by the pH
which increases with increasing pH" very interesting article here:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...of_coconut_sugar_and_its_antioxidant_activity

So shouldn't we:
1) mix sucrose ,water, lemon juice and heat to inversion temparature
2) add DAP and calcium hydroxide ( pickling lime ?? )
3) heat until we get the right color

Does it makes sense ?

 

[IslandLizard]

"Maillard reaction is strongly influenced by the pH
which increases with increasing pH" very interesting article here:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...of_coconut_sugar_and_its_antioxidant_activity

So shouldn't we:
1) mix sucrose ,water, lemon juice and heat to inversion temparature
2) add DAP and calcium hydroxide ( pickling lime ?? )
3) heat until we get the right color

Does it makes sense ?

Isn't the idea in this method NOT to invert. Inverting makes a glucose/fructose mixture from sucrose.
I don't use water anymore. Instead, I use wort, often high gravity wort, adding more complex molecules for the Maillard reactions.
I really like the results it gives me, in Belgian beers too. It's much richer than D-90, IMO.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Isn't the idea in this method NOT to invert. Inverting makes a glucose/fructose mixture from sucrose.
I don't use water anymore. Instead, I use wort, often high gravity wort, adding more complex molecules for the Maillard reactions.
I really like the results it gives me, in Belgian beers too. It's much richer than D-90, IMO.

I use DME for a proportion of the sugar for the same reason, it adds a variety of sugars, proteins, etc. to increase complexity.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

"Maillard reaction is strongly influenced by the pH
which increases with increasing pH" very interesting article here:
(PDF) Effect of pH and temperature on browning intensity of coconut sugar and its antioxidant activity

So shouldn't we:
1) mix sucrose ,water, lemon juice and heat to inversion temparature
2) add DAP and calcium hydroxide ( pickling lime ?? )
3) heat until we get the right color

Does it makes sense ?

There are many ways to make various syrups. Don't worry about the science of why or whether we should do this or that in theory, the method in this thread works really well.

 

[eimar]

Isn't the idea in this method NOT to invert. Inverting makes a glucose/fructose mixture from sucrose.
I don't use water anymore. Instead, I use wort, often high gravity wort, adding more complex molecules for the Maillard reactions.
I really like the results it gives me, in Belgian beers too. It's much richer than D-90, IMO.

"The Maillard reaction is a chemical reaction between amino acids and reducing sugars" , so how can you have Maillard reactions from sucrose ?? The way I understand sucrose is not a reducing sugar .

 

[OldDogBrewing]

How much will this last in the fridge? Or out of it? No idea how to store it, I will be doing this the day before brewday as I already do an step mash and I'm planning on adding a decoction to raise to mash out so I don't want to add one more step to brewday.

Will this last overnight?

 

[z-bob]

How much will this last in the fridge? Or out of it? No idea how to store it, I will be doing this the day before brewday as I already do an step mash and I'm planning on adding a decoction to raise to mash out so I don't want to add one more step to brewday.

Will this last overnight?

I've not really been following this thread, so I don't know how concentrated your syrup is, but if it's strong enough it doesn't even need refrigeration. (let's assume it's not that strong) Yes, it will keep in the refrigerator; for a long time. About like real maple syrup.

 

[eimar]

I store my candi syrup in ( preheated ) Mason jars. I keep it at ambient temperature for several months without problem. At least 24 hours without refrigeration , I produced 40 kg of candi syrup for a micro brewery the day before brew day. As z-bob says: like real maple syrup.

 

[z-bob]

"Maillard reaction is strongly influenced by the pH
which increases with increasing pH" very interesting article here:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...of_coconut_sugar_and_its_antioxidant_activity

So shouldn't we:
1) mix sucrose ,water, lemon juice and heat to inversion temparature
2) add DAP and calcium hydroxide ( pickling lime ?? )
3) heat until we get the right color

Does it makes sense ?

Sucrose will hydrolyze at neutral pH, just not as quickly as in acid. I think if you want to optimize the reaction, mix the water, sugar, and DAP (or powdered egg white, or whey, or DME, etc) and cook for a long time. You'll probably get a little browning as well; I don't remember if that's from the fructose or glucose. Then add the lime or potassium hydroxide or sodium carbonate (it won't take nearly as much because you didn't add any acid) and continue cooking until you get the color you want.

I don't know if sucrose will hydrolyze (invert) eventually without adding invertase enzymes at high pH. A quick search this morning doesn't turn up anything.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

Thanks both of you, I'm definitely swapping the candi rocks for a homemade syrup in my next dubbel