20 lb of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient

[Zymurg]

Thanks for explaining Zymurg. I've made invert before and may try adding some acid in my next trial then. I'm guessing this crystalized batch is still good to use, but its 280F medium amber and I think a 290F dark amber will go well with the beer I have planned. Good excuse to make another pound anyway.

Not sure, but I may have interpreted the second water addition part incorrectly. I assumed I was supposed to steadily pour ALL the water in at once after reaching desired temp, letting it free fall and then reheating to 240. Reading pg 9, I noticed someone explain this water should be added slowly until the temp drops to 240... and then stoppimg immediately. Which way is right?

I do it the first way. Bring it to your desired temp, add the water (a little at a time so it doesn't jump out of the pot), it'll drop down to 212ish, then reheat until it gets to 240. I often add some more water so it is thin enough to pour when cool. I seal it in mason jars for use later.

 

[rhys333]

I do it the first way. Bring it to your desired temp, add the water (a little at a time so it doesn't jump out of the pot), it'll drop down to 212ish, then reheat until it gets to 240. I often add some more water so it is thin enough to pour when cool. I seal it in mason jars for use later.

Thanks again. I ended up making another batch a few days ago. I just added the water after reaching temp and heated it up long enough to reach boil, then killed the heat. Seemed to turn out well, as I still have syrup. I might try your method next time to see if it adds anything in terms of flavor (though this batch is darn tasty as-is).

 

[hio3791]

Thanks again. I ended up making another batch a few days ago. I just added the water after reaching temp and heated it up long enough to reach boil, then killed the heat. Seemed to turn out well, as I still have syrup. I might try your method next time to see if it adds anything in terms of flavor (though this batch is darn tasty as-is).

I just made a batch, without reading this whole thread, and did the same thing you did. It came out nicely.

View attachment 1480298669975.jpg

 

[FatDragon]

Beautiful. That looks like roughly a 280F batch? I'll be whipping up a batch of #5 (double-cooked 290F) sometime soon here in preparation for a quad. It's always a little bit different from batch to batch, and that's part of the fun of it to me. Practically it always comes back to the prohibitive cost of commercial candi sugar or syrup (especially shipping it to China), but I enjoy it for the process and variability as well.

 

[hio3791]

That looks like roughly a 280F batch?

Close! I killed the heat at 285F thinking it would continue to rise and I didn't want to go over 290.

I slowly added the remaining water and that dropped the temperature to around 200. I thought the remaining water would bring it down to 240 so I reapplied heat. When it reached 225, I decided to stop heating.

It has a thin syrup consistency. It's delicious and it's all going into an amber ale that I'll make soon.

What's the shelf life of this? What the recommended way of storing?

 

[FatDragon]

Close! I killed the heat at 285F thinking it would continue to rise and I didn't want to go over 290.

I slowly added the remaining water and that dropped the temperature to around 200. I thought the remaining water would bring it down to 240 so I reapplied heat. When it reached 225, I decided to stop heating.

It has a thin syrup consistency. It's delicious and it's all going into an amber ale that I'll make soon.

What's the shelf life of this? What the recommended way of storing?

Consistency isn't really an issue since you'll be mixing it into wort. If anything, it might help to have a thin batch since it's less likely to scorch on the bottom of the kettle before it dissolves into the wort. Just remember to calculate the addition based on the weight of the sugar that went into the batch rather than the weight of the syrup, though if you're using the whole batch of syrup that only really affects the recipe analysis and not the recipe building.

I couldn't say on the shelf life, but I've kept similar caramel syrups (sugar and lemon juice for adding to coffee) sealed up in the fridge for over a year at a time without issue. With this DAP syrup specifically, I've stored partial batches for at least six months at a time without any sign of degradation - also sealed up in the fridge. Whether it's really supposed to be shelf-stable that long or if there should be some kind of canning process to ensure that it doesn't spoil long-term, I don't know. All I know is what I've done and lived to tell about.

 

[troglodytes]

I'm so happy this thread is still going. I've attempted this several different times and the results are delicious but I can't get the color right and I feel like I have to be doing something wrong because it takes forever, like longer than my full 60 boil on brew day.

I always put the sugar and suggested amount of water in a pan then put over medium heat. As it begins to heat up I add the DAP and my candy thermometer. Then I patiently wait for it to come to temp. After about 45 minutes over medium heat, its finally hitting about 250F, but at this point the color always looks like the dark amber. I then add the suggested amount of water and the temp drops to about 225F. Still over medium heat it finally makes its way to soft ball (240F) in another 30-45 minutes at which point I remove and add to the boil. At this point the color is dark, I've never been able to produce a light or rose version of this even if I wanted to. I've done this with two different thermometers and two different stoves (gas and electric) with the same exact results both times. Am I doing something wrong?? All I want is to produce the rose color variation of this.

 

[schmittychris]

I know it's been a while but this thread needs to be revived. I made two batches of this today. The light and the deep amber. Both turned out fantastic. I make a lot of Belgians and the sugar costs always kill it for me. I'm glad that with about 20 min of work I can make my own. I'm using the light in a tripel I'm brewing this afternoon. Thank you OP for figuring this out.

 

[skitter]

Dude how did you get that clarity? Mine always crystalized upon cooling

 

[Shenanigans]

I tried the 280 version a few years ago but didn't have any DAP so used citric acid. It turned out nice but significantly darker than the pictures I have seen from others on here. It also has a very slight citrus hint which maybe from the citric acid or just normal. I would like to try make it again but I still don't have any DAP. Could I use something else? Lactic acid maybe and how much?
Thanks.

 

[PissyFingers]

Excuse my ignorance but is Whitelabs yeast nutrient "DAP"?

 

[troglodytes]

I know it's been a while but this thread needs to be revived. I made two batches of this today. The light and the deep amber. Both turned out fantastic. I make a lot of Belgians and the sugar costs always kill it for me. I'm glad that with about 20 min of work I can make my own. I'm using the light in a tripel I'm brewing this afternoon. Thank you OP for figuring this out.

This looks great, and I'm jealous of that light version. I have never gotten that light of a color or been able to do this with 20 minutes of work. At a minimum it takes an hour to get to the light color temp for me.

Would you mind expanding on your process? What type of stove and at what heat setting are you at? Does it realistically only take 20 minutes to get the sugar to an initial temp of 250-260F? Do you pour in the full volume of water and reheat to soft ball (240F) or do you only put in enough water to drop the temp to 240F?

Sorry to bombard you with these Qs, but your final product looks better than anything I've done in 4 attempts, so I figure I must be doing something wrong.

 

[Dcpcooks]

Dude how did you get that clarity? Mine always crystalized upon cooling

Here are the keys to making sugar in different forms. The short answer is how you cool it down.
https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/...ast-issues/archive-2014-2015/candymaking.html

 

[Dcpcooks]

Duplicate

 

[schmittychris]

Dude how did you get that clarity? Mine always crystalized upon cooling

They key (I believe) is the stirring while adding the cooling water. I stir vigorously until it hits 240 and then pour into the mason jar. The jar is heated and it cools the rest of the way slowly. There is a small layer of crystals at the bottom. Maybe 1-2mm thick.

 

[schmittychris]

This looks great, and I'm jealous of that light version. I have never gotten that light of a color or been able to do this with 20 minutes of work. At a minimum it takes an hour to get to the light color temp for me.

Would you mind expanding on your process? What type of stove and at what heat setting are you at? Does it realistically only take 20 minutes to get the sugar to an initial temp of 250-260F? Do you pour in the full volume of water and reheat to soft ball (240F) or do you only put in enough water to drop the temp to 240F?

Sorry to bombard you with these Qs, but your final product looks better than anything I've done in 4 attempts, so I figure I must be doing something wrong.

No worries happy to help. I use a gas stove on medium heat (4-5 out of 9). Once it hit's 260 I add water until it gets down to 240 and then take it off the stove and pour into warm mason jars. Yes it takes about 20 min. That was my second batch of light and both turned out near identical.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Excuse my ignorance but is Whitelabs yeast nutrient "DAP"?

I believe the primary ingredient is DAP, but it also contains other nutrients as well, so it's not 100% DAP.

 

[schmittychris]

I tried the 280 version a few years ago but didn't have any DAP so used citric acid. It turned out nice but significantly darker than the pictures I have seen from others on here. It also has a very slight citrus hint which maybe from the citric acid or just normal. I would like to try make it again but I still don't have any DAP. Could I use something else? Lactic acid maybe and how much?
Thanks.

The DAP is the key for the Maillard reaction and provides a lot of the flavor. Using citric acid is a different process. 1lb bags of DAP are cheap on Amazon.

 

[Shenanigans]

The DAP is the key for the Maillard reaction and provides a lot of the flavor. Using citric acid is a different process. 1lb bags of DAP are cheap on Amazon.

Thanks for the information.

I live in Europe so we have different product availability here.
I've seen some cheap wine yeast nutrient for about 10 bucks a kilo (over 2 pounds) or 2.5 for 100g (about 3.5 oz)

I'm not sure how pure it is though.
Maybe I'll order 100g with my next online order.

 

[troglodytes]

I've got to be doing something wrong. I was excited to try the sugar #5 (twice brought to 290F) to be used in a quad. I commented in the past about how every time I make this it always comes out darker than the temp would indicate. I have used a gas stove and electric (electric this time), and never above Med (heat setting 4 out of 10).

This time when the temp had reached 290F the first time it was delicious upon taste test although about the color of snickasaurus' 300F example. I was willing to live with that since this is going to be the darkening ingredient in my quad. But once I did the water addition and brought the temp back to 290 (287F on my calibrated thermometer) it turned jet black, smelled a bit charred and had a slightly sweet flavor and hints of charcoal. All of the nuance from the original tasting at 290F were gone completely and there is no raisin/prune or coffee as there was before. Pic is provided to show just how black this stuff got (and a weird consistency as it went from gummy at 270F to runny at 290F).

Is it supposed to tasted blackened, and, once aged in a big beer mellows out or do I need to try again or just go buy some D2? I love the concept of doing this to make something from scratch as well as save a little in the process, but this is now my 5th time making it (at varying colors) and it has never come out as it should.

 

[rhys333]

I made a batch of the medium amber a few months ago and used it in a rye saison. I followed the procedure exactly, and made sure to heat slowly to prevent any burning. The resulting syrup smelled and tasted fantastic. Unfortunately, the saison I brewed with it turned out awfully bitter and burnt-tasting. I might do a small 1 gallon extract tester batch with the same syrup to see if it could be something else in my process.

 

[cheesebach]

Were you stirring and/or turning off the heat while adding the syrup during the boil? If it looked/tasted good before you added it to the wort, I'm wondering if it could have possibly scorched when you added it in the boil.

 

[schmittychris]

I've got to be doing something wrong. I was excited to try the sugar #5 (twice brought to 290F) to be used in a quad. I commented in the past about how every time I make this it always comes out darker than the temp would indicate. I have used a gas stove and electric (electric this time), and never above Med (heat setting 4 out of 10).

This time when the temp had reached 290F the first time it was delicious upon taste test although about the color of snickasaurus' 300F example. I was willing to live with that since this is going to be the darkening ingredient in my quad. But once I did the water addition and brought the temp back to 290 (287F on my calibrated thermometer) it turned jet black, smelled a bit charred and had a slightly sweet flavor and hints of charcoal. All of the nuance from the original tasting at 290F were gone completely and there is no raisin/prune or coffee as there was before. Pic is provided to show just how black this stuff got (and a weird consistency as it went from gummy at 270F to runny at 290F).

Is it supposed to tasted blackened, and, once aged in a big beer mellows out or do I need to try again or just go buy some D2? I love the concept of doing this to make something from scratch as well as save a little in the process, but this is now my 5th time making it (at varying colors) and it has never come out as it should.

I'll try and make some of the #5 to see how it turns out since I've had pretty good luck with making this stuff. I'll try and document as much as possible so we can compare. It might take me a week or so.

 

[FatDragon]

I've got to be doing something wrong. I was excited to try the sugar #5 (twice brought to 290F) to be used in a quad. I commented in the past about how every time I make this it always comes out darker than the temp would indicate. I have used a gas stove and electric (electric this time), and never above Med (heat setting 4 out of 10).

This time when the temp had reached 290F the first time it was delicious upon taste test although about the color of snickasaurus' 300F example. I was willing to live with that since this is going to be the darkening ingredient in my quad. But once I did the water addition and brought the temp back to 290 (287F on my calibrated thermometer) it turned jet black, smelled a bit charred and had a slightly sweet flavor and hints of charcoal. All of the nuance from the original tasting at 290F were gone completely and there is no raisin/prune or coffee as there was before. Pic is provided to show just how black this stuff got (and a weird consistency as it went from gummy at 270F to runny at 290F).

Is it supposed to tasted blackened, and, once aged in a big beer mellows out or do I need to try again or just go buy some D2? I love the concept of doing this to make something from scratch as well as save a little in the process, but this is now my 5th time making it (at varying colors) and it has never come out as it should.

No, it's not supposed to taste blackened.

Possible problems here:

Elevation might affect cooking sugar like it does baking (unlikely).
Your thermometer might be off-calibration at above boiling temperatures.
Your sugar might be overcooking as it rests (if you don't cool it immediately).
Or most likely, you might be measuring a cooler part of the non-homogenous sugar mixture, so part of the sugar is cooking at 300 when you're measuring 290.

I'd suggest three possible solutions:

First, try measuring different parts of your sugar as it cooks and find which spots are hotter and which are cooler. Use the hottest spot as your current temperature.

Second, try dropping your temp targets by 10F, so instead of 2x 290F you go for 2x 280F. Worst case scenario, you get a slightly lighter sugar than you were aiming for.

Third, time your temperature targets not by temperature but by color. When your sugar reaches the color you want, cool it with water. I've done this pretty successfully doing similar caramel syrups for coffee and pancakes when I'm not using DAP and thus can't rely on the temperatures given here.

As for the blackened syrup, you can cut it with something lighter for less harshness and use it in coffee, or it might make a nice addition to a big, bad RIS (I've done it once and would recommend it).

 

[troglodytes]

Third, time your temperature targets not by temperature but by color. When your sugar reaches the color you want, cool it with water. I've done this pretty successfully doing similar caramel syrups for coffee and pancakes when I'm not using DAP and thus can't rely on the temperatures given here.

As for the blackened syrup, you can cut it with something lighter for less harshness and use it in coffee, or it might make a nice addition to a big, bad RIS (I've done it once and would recommend it).

I think your third suggestion is how I will go about this next time and focus on color only.

I love your idea of using this is a big RIS, but unfortunately I only have 2 carboys for aging and they are both in use. What kind of shelf life are we talking with this overdone syrup? And secondly, I had a a taste of it again last night and it has this sharp tang to it, almost like vinegar, when it first hits your tongue; then there is a little charcoal and sweetness. Is this similar to your experience when you added it to an RIS? I'd hate to make such a big beer and hope for the best and have it turn out acrid or twang-y (is that a word)?

Thanks for the advice, and I think I'll go down to my LHBS and pick up some D-180 for the quad I'm making.

 

[FatDragon]

I think your third suggestion is how I will go about this next time and focus on color only.

I love your idea of using this is a big RIS, but unfortunately I only have 2 carboys for aging and they are both in use. What kind of shelf life are we talking with this overdone syrup? And secondly, I had a a taste of it again last night and it has this sharp tang to it, almost like vinegar, when it first hits your tongue; then there is a little charcoal and sweetness. Is this similar to your experience when you added it to an RIS? I'd hate to make such a big beer and hope for the best and have it turn out acrid or twang-y (is that a word)?

Thanks for the advice, and I think I'll go down to my LHBS and pick up some D-180 for the quad I'm making.

It wouldn't hurt to measure multiple parts of the sugar as it's cooking anyway, even if you're cooking by color and not temperature. That might inform you as to whether or not homogeneity is a problem for your measurements and what temperatures you want to target for future batches.

I don't recall a particular acidic or vinegary taste to my burnt syrup. I think the flavor was a mix of burnt sugar, dark fruits, and caramel (in that order). I don't have solid notes, but I think I had it for several months before it went into the RIS so pretty long shelf life (in the fridge) and I believe I used a bit less than a pound of syrup in the ~4.5 gallon RIS, for maybe 6-7% of the total grainbill by weight, probably more like 10% by gravity points. I had screwy thermometer issues at the time and have no idea what my mash temperature was, but judging by the FG I think it was pretty high, and the beer benefited from it as you don't want to let this sugar dry out your RIS too much, unless you're into that sort of thing.

 

[Bosh]

Don't let it get hard!

At the very end, when it's all done, add some water so it remains a (thick) syrup.

Doh of course. Why didn't I think of that. Did this and the flavor was wonderful and it did great things for my beer (biggest crowd pleaser of ANY beer I've made) but it was so incredibly sticky and dealing with it was very aggravating. Will add water next time.

Eyeballing a recipe for a dark beer using this stuff unlike the caramel amber I did last time for a 5 gallon batch:
-Enough 2-row to hit 1.060 OG or so.
-Pound of Deep Amber caramel.
-Half pound of carared.
-Half pound of carabrown malt (light brown malt, not crystal malt despite its stupid name, tastes like biscuit malt on steroids).
-Half pound of chocolate malt.
-Enough midnight wheat to turn it black.

Northern Brewer for hops? Chinook? 35 IBUs or so with enough at flameout to give it a touch of pine on the aftertaste.

 

[schmittychris]

Doh of course. Why didn't I think of that. Did this and the flavor was wonderful and it did great things for my beer (biggest crowd pleaser of ANY beer I've made) but it was so incredibly sticky and dealing with it was very aggravating. Will add water next time.

Eyeballing a recipe for a dark beer using this stuff unlike the caramel amber I did last time for a 5 gallon batch:
-Enough 2-row to hit 1.060 OG or so.
-Pound of Deep Amber caramel.
-Half pound of carared.
-Half pound of carabrown malt (light brown malt, not crystal malt despite its stupid name, tastes like biscuit malt on steroids).
-Half pound of chocolate malt.
-Enough midnight wheat to turn it black.

Northern Brewer for hops? Chinook? 35 IBUs or so with enough at flameout to give it a touch of pine on the aftertaste.

I did a caramel amber with this and I used some left over Sorachi Ace. Some people don't like it, but the lemon and slight dill offset the sweetness of the beer very well. One of my better beers to date.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

No, it's not supposed to taste blackened.

Possible problems here:

Elevation might affect cooking sugar like it does baking (unlikely).
Your thermometer might be off-calibration at above boiling temperatures.

I've wondered about the effects of elevation on this process myself. It changes the boiling point (water boils around 196-7 where I live at 7500') so it would make sense that it would impact the target temps when making syrup/ candy.

And definitely question the quality and accuracy of any measuring instruments

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Just found this with a little Google Fu...

https://bakingwithaltitude.com/high-altitude-candy-making-tips/