20 lb of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient

[FatDragon]

I've started to branch out from beer and cider to do a few wine kits and a mead, and I had a crazy idea. Since it's almost completely fermentable, how would this stuff work for making a wine-strength beverage like mead? Would the flavors be too strong without the sweetness? Has anyone tried it?

I can't start another non-food fermentation for a while without my wife getting ticked, but give it a try! Make a couple pounds of one of the darker varieties, toss it in a 2-liter bottle with some spring water, pitch some kraeusen from your wine or mead, give it nutrient additions like a mead or wine, and see where it takes you!

 

[nacho2100]

If you make it with DNP you might not need the nutrients. I actually was thinking about doing this recently. I will probably give it a go. If you do as well please let us know how it turns out.

 

[tennesseean_87]

I can't start another non-food fermentation for a while without my wife getting ticked, but give it a try! Make a couple pounds of one of the darker varieties, toss it in a 2-liter bottle with some spring water, pitch some kraeusen from your wine or mead, give it nutrient additions like a mead or wine, and see where it takes you!

If you make it with DNP you might not need the nutrients. I actually was thinking about doing this recently. I will probably give it a go. If you do as well please let us know how it turns out.

I still need to start the wine for my wife and don't have the nutrients yet (put them on the xmas list--I'll buy them if I don't get them). After xmas I'll definitely give 1 gallon a go.

 

[Barley_Bob]

I have a few questions:

I used the recipe for the light syrup the other day, and I ended up with a sugar that was spot on. But as it cooled, it started to turn slushy and would have eventually been something like rock candy. I just dumped it into my beer when I saw the direction things were going, but what did I do wrong? I think maybe I didn't add as much water at the end as I was supposed to, but is that the issue?

Also, how long are you actually supposed to hold the cooking sugar at the desired temp?

Finally, I'm planning to make a Westvleteren inspired beer soon, and I wonder if folks would recommend the 300F or 290F sugar? Maybe a combination of the two? I was planning on going straight 300, but after reading the OP's descriptions again, I'm not sure.

 

[Barley_Bob]

I used the recipe for the light syrup the other day, and I ended up with a sugar that was spot on. But as it cooled, it started to turn slushy and would have eventually been something like rock candy. I just dumped it into my beer when I saw the direction things were going, but what did I do wrong? I think maybe I didn't add as much water at the end as I was supposed to, but is that the issue?

Well Bob, I think you ****ed it up. You probably didn't add enough water, and I'm pretty sure the instructions say to pull the temp back up to 240 after you add the final addition of water (although I agree the step-by-step process isn't well defined).

Also, how long are you actually supposed to hold the cooking sugar at the desired temp?

When I tried this, the other day, I found that the syrup had to be held at the desired temp for a few minutes to get it to the desired level. On the bright side, a sudden spike above the desired temperature isn't going to hurt you as long as you get it back down quickly. I know this from experience.

Finally, I'm planning to make a Westvleteren inspired beer soon, and I wonder if folks would recommend the 300F or 290F sugar? Maybe a combination of the two? I was planning on going straight 300, but after reading the OP's descriptions again, I'm not sure.

I think you should try a blend. Maybe a medium along with dark amber and mahogany. The clones for Westvleteren 12 don't agree on whether to add 2 or 3lbs of sugar, and that mix is certainly going to maximize the variety of flavors in your brew. Why, I tried this the other day, and I was amazed at the complexity of flavor in that sugar mix.

 

[JayDubWill]

I have a few questions:

I used the recipe for the light syrup the other day, and I ended up with a sugar that was spot on. But as it cooled, it started to turn slushy and would have eventually been something like rock candy. I just dumped it into my beer when I saw the direction things were going, but what did I do wrong? I think maybe I didn't add as much water at the end as I was supposed to, but is that the issue?

Also, how long are you actually supposed to hold the cooking sugar at the desired temp?

Finally, I'm planning to make a Westvleteren inspired beer soon, and I wonder if folks would recommend the 300F or 290F sugar? Maybe a combination of the two? I was planning on going straight 300, but after reading the OP's descriptions again, I'm not sure.

Sounds like you had a crystallization issue. Sugar syrup is notorious for turning back into crystal as it cools for a variety of reasons. One of the common reasons is stray grains of sugar find their way into the pot and act as a seed for crystal formation and ruin the batch. Here's a pretty good article about it.

 

[skitter]

So pulled a dumb ass moment... Was going to do half the Medium Amber recipe. 1lb sugar, and then forgot to half everything else. 1c water and 2 tsp DAP. By the time I remembered I was able to half the finishing water, but my container is quickly turning crystalized as it cools. Will this affect my beer at all?

 

[skitter]

Made this again, full sized batch. Ended up with a way lighter color then I should have for the 280, and as it cooled it crystalized. Not sure what is going on here... Made sure to hit all my temperatures spot on using a candy thermometer.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Thanks to the OP. Bookmarking...

 

[ss4ivan]

Made this again, full sized batch. Ended up with a way lighter color then I should have for the 280, and as it cooled it crystalized. Not sure what is going on here... Made sure to hit all my temperatures spot on using a candy thermometer.

As long as it tastes good it should be fine in your beer. Lighter color will mean less Carmel flavors. It will be like adding sugar. You probably heated the mixture too fast. It usually takes me at least 30 minutes from start to finish. I usually always get some crystalization, but it goes away as I heat back up to the dough ball stage. Sometimes some of the crystalization stays and I add it to my beer anyway. I Always get good results.

 

[bolus14]

I made some of this earlier and it ended up the color of honey and i was shooting for 290. Is it possible to put it back on the stove and boil some more to darken it up? Does it need more DAP added if it's been cooled?

 

[bolus14]

Well, since I brewed this a day after my previous post I just shot in the dark and decided to throw it back on the stove and boil again. It worked out for me, I had to bring it up to 315 degrees to get the listed 290 color, maybe my thermometer is off...

Regardless the dark fruit, rummy caramel flavor was there. Very close in taste as D2 syrup, maybe not quite as much depth and complexity but very close.

 

[specharka]

Subscribing to this thread!

I recently made an amber candy sugar (not syrup) using 1/4 tsp cream of tartar to invert the sugars. Could not seem to acquire that dark hue I wanted so I'm attempting it again, sans acid.

 

[BandonBrewingCo]

Hi,

DAP is very hard to get where I am. However, I do have plenty of DME & Sodium Bicarbonate (Baking Soda) to hand.

According to post #21 here, this guy used 500g sugar, 1/2 Tsp DME and some Baking Soda mixed with water.

Does this sound ok or am I missing something important?

EDIT: Also, the second cup of water goes in when? Is that for bringing the temp back down from say 290F to 240F?

Cheers

 

[bolus14]

EDIT: Also, the second cup of water goes in when? Is that for bringing the temp back down from say 290F to 240F?

Cheers

I'm not sure on the first part of your post, but for this part, yes. When you hit 290, slowly add the water while stirring until your temp gets down to 240.

 

[BandonBrewingCo]

I'm not sure on the first part of your post, but for this part, yes. When you hit 290, slowly add the water while stirring until your temp gets down to 240.

So do I really want to add another cup of water at the end?

 

[WhoDatDad78]

I'm not sure on the first part of your post, but for this part, yes. When you hit 290, slowly add the water while stirring until your temp gets down to 240.

So, you say slowly. Over what time frame are we talking here? Should this take 15 minutes or 30 minutes? I ask because I made the 290 and it came out about the color of wild honey.

 

[bolus14]

Mine came out about the same color as yours, I would say it shouldn't take anymore than about 10 min for the temp to get to 240.

 

[stever1000]

I tried making some belgian candy and it worked, I poured it onto a cookie sheet and then broke it into chunks when it cooled.

BUT when I used it in the boil, it turned into a goopy sticky gross mess on the bottom of my kettle, and took A LOT of convincing to dissolve into the wort

What went wrong??

 

[IslandLizard]

I tried making some belgian candy and it worked, I poured it onto a cookie sheet and then broke it into chunks when it cooled.

BUT when I used it in the boil, it turned into a goopy sticky gross mess on the bottom of my kettle, and took A LOT of convincing to dissolve into the wort

What went wrong??

Don't let it get hard!

At the very end, when it's all done, add some water so it remains a (thick) syrup.

 

[FatDragon]

Alternately if you do let it harden, scoop out a couple liters of the boiling wort and stir the candi sugar into that in a separate pot or bowl to pre-dissolve it before it goes into the boil kettle.

 

[stever1000]

Don't let it get hard!

At the very end, when it's all done, add some water so it remains a (thick) syrup.

So I would pour it into a deeper baking pan and add more water to it so it doesn't solidify?

 

[bolus14]

Not sure what kind of pan you're pouring into, I think most if not all of us are pouting into mason jars after it's done boiling.
If you stop boiling and start cooling at the right time it will be a syrup and stay that way, if you boil too long it will solidify when cooling, this is the point you should add more water.

 

[stever1000]

Not sure what kind of pan you're pouring into, I think most if not all of us are pouting into mason jars after it's done boiling.
If you stop boiling and start cooling at the right time it will be a syrup and stay that way, if you boil too long it will solidify when cooling, this is the point you should add more water.

Thanks, I will read more up on the timing so I can have a syrup

 

[IslandLizard]

So I would pour it into a deeper baking pan and add more water to it so it doesn't solidify?

If you added water at the end to keep it syrupy, the consistency of honey or even a bit thinner, if you like. You really don't want to pour it into a baking pan when it's like that...

A mason jar, as mentioned by @bolus14, or any other vessel will work fine. The idea is to keep it in liquid form. A plastic container will work just as well, once it has cooled off enough.

 

[bob1852]

Made some of the dark amber stuff. Until I realized at my elevation, soft ball stage is ~226*F, not 240*F. Oops.

We'll see what it's like when it cools...

 

[rhys333]

Awesome procedure. I had to try this out tonight. Followed instructions to a tee, but as soon as I cooled the pan the syrup turned semi solid with soft crystals. Its like firm brown sugar, and, well, forms a soft ball but with crystals. Tastes great, but its not a syrup. Should it be heated up to lower than 240F (soft ball) the second time to remain in liquid state? Did stirring while cooling in the water bath cause the crystals?

View attachment 1477280159478.jpg

View attachment 1477280171442.jpg

 

[rhys333]

Can anyone advise? I'm stumped. I guess I'm wondering if reheating to thread temp (230F) instead of soft ball would ensure it stays in syrup form.

 

[Zymurg]

Can anyone advise? I'm stumped. I guess I'm wondering if reheating to thread temp (230F) instead of soft ball would ensure it stays in syrup form.

I have had this happen.

I make sure I add a small amount of acid to the sugar/water mixture before I bring it to a boil. I then heat it to boiling and occasionally add water to keep it in the <220F range for at least 30 minutes. The point is to get the sugar to invert. After that it won't try to recrystallize as the water leaves.

Then I add my nitrogen source (ammonia) and watch it turn green. Cook it until it reaches the right colour according to the directions in the post. I've done this many times and it comes out great.

In candy recipes they use corn syrup and white sugar with water. This adds invert sugar to the mixture right away (corn syrup is inverted).

They also use cream of tartar in candy, same idea. I use 1 gram of citric acid per Kilogram of sugar.

You can invert through temperature alone but it takes a long time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_sugar_syrup
https://www.northernbrewer.com/connect/2010/05/how-to-make-invert-sugar/

 

[rhys333]

I have had this happen.

I make sure I add a small amount of acid to the sugar/water mixture before I bring it to a boil. I then heat it to boiling and occasionally add water to keep it in the <220F range for at least 30 minutes. The point is to get the sugar to invert. After that it won't try to recrystallize as the water leaves.

Then I add my nitrogen source (ammonia) and watch it turn green. Cook it until it reaches the right colour according to the directions in the post. I've done this many times and it comes out great.

In candy recipes they use corn syrup and white sugar with water. This adds invert sugar to the mixture right away (corn syrup is inverted).

They also use cream of tartar in candy, same idea. I use 1 gram of citric acid per Kilogram of sugar.

You can invert through temperature alone but it takes a long time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_sugar_syrup
https://www.northernbrewer.com/connect/2010/05/how-to-make-invert-sugar/

Thanks for explaining Zymurg. I've made invert before and may try adding some acid in my next trial then. I'm guessing this crystalized batch is still good to use, but its 280F medium amber and I think a 290F dark amber will go well with the beer I have planned. Good excuse to make another pound anyway.

Not sure, but I may have interpreted the second water addition part incorrectly. I assumed I was supposed to steadily pour ALL the water in at once after reaching desired temp, letting it free fall and then reheating to 240. Reading pg 9, I noticed someone explain this water should be added slowly until the temp drops to 240... and then stoppimg immediately. Which way is right?

 

[Zymurg]

Thanks for explaining Zymurg. I've made invert before and may try adding some acid in my next trial then. I'm guessing this crystalized batch is still good to use, but its 280F medium amber and I think a 290F dark amber will go well with the beer I have planned. Good excuse to make another pound anyway.

Not sure, but I may have interpreted the second water addition part incorrectly. I assumed I was supposed to steadily pour ALL the water in at once after reaching desired temp, letting it free fall and then reheating to 240. Reading pg 9, I noticed someone explain this water should be added slowly until the temp drops to 240... and then stoppimg immediately. Which way is right?

I do it the first way. Bring it to your desired temp, add the water (a little at a time so it doesn't jump out of the pot), it'll drop down to 212ish, then reheat until it gets to 240. I often add some more water so it is thin enough to pour when cool. I seal it in mason jars for use later.

 

[rhys333]

I do it the first way. Bring it to your desired temp, add the water (a little at a time so it doesn't jump out of the pot), it'll drop down to 212ish, then reheat until it gets to 240. I often add some more water so it is thin enough to pour when cool. I seal it in mason jars for use later.

Thanks again. I ended up making another batch a few days ago. I just added the water after reaching temp and heated it up long enough to reach boil, then killed the heat. Seemed to turn out well, as I still have syrup. I might try your method next time to see if it adds anything in terms of flavor (though this batch is darn tasty as-is).

 

[hio3791]

Thanks again. I ended up making another batch a few days ago. I just added the water after reaching temp and heated it up long enough to reach boil, then killed the heat. Seemed to turn out well, as I still have syrup. I might try your method next time to see if it adds anything in terms of flavor (though this batch is darn tasty as-is).

I just made a batch, without reading this whole thread, and did the same thing you did. It came out nicely.

View attachment 1480298669975.jpg

 

[FatDragon]

Beautiful. That looks like roughly a 280F batch? I'll be whipping up a batch of #5 (double-cooked 290F) sometime soon here in preparation for a quad. It's always a little bit different from batch to batch, and that's part of the fun of it to me. Practically it always comes back to the prohibitive cost of commercial candi sugar or syrup (especially shipping it to China), but I enjoy it for the process and variability as well.

 

[hio3791]

That looks like roughly a 280F batch?

Close! I killed the heat at 285F thinking it would continue to rise and I didn't want to go over 290.

I slowly added the remaining water and that dropped the temperature to around 200. I thought the remaining water would bring it down to 240 so I reapplied heat. When it reached 225, I decided to stop heating.

It has a thin syrup consistency. It's delicious and it's all going into an amber ale that I'll make soon.

What's the shelf life of this? What the recommended way of storing?

 

[FatDragon]

Close! I killed the heat at 285F thinking it would continue to rise and I didn't want to go over 290.

I slowly added the remaining water and that dropped the temperature to around 200. I thought the remaining water would bring it down to 240 so I reapplied heat. When it reached 225, I decided to stop heating.

It has a thin syrup consistency. It's delicious and it's all going into an amber ale that I'll make soon.

What's the shelf life of this? What the recommended way of storing?

Consistency isn't really an issue since you'll be mixing it into wort. If anything, it might help to have a thin batch since it's less likely to scorch on the bottom of the kettle before it dissolves into the wort. Just remember to calculate the addition based on the weight of the sugar that went into the batch rather than the weight of the syrup, though if you're using the whole batch of syrup that only really affects the recipe analysis and not the recipe building.

I couldn't say on the shelf life, but I've kept similar caramel syrups (sugar and lemon juice for adding to coffee) sealed up in the fridge for over a year at a time without issue. With this DAP syrup specifically, I've stored partial batches for at least six months at a time without any sign of degradation - also sealed up in the fridge. Whether it's really supposed to be shelf-stable that long or if there should be some kind of canning process to ensure that it doesn't spoil long-term, I don't know. All I know is what I've done and lived to tell about.

 

[troglodytes]

I'm so happy this thread is still going. I've attempted this several different times and the results are delicious but I can't get the color right and I feel like I have to be doing something wrong because it takes forever, like longer than my full 60 boil on brew day.

I always put the sugar and suggested amount of water in a pan then put over medium heat. As it begins to heat up I add the DAP and my candy thermometer. Then I patiently wait for it to come to temp. After about 45 minutes over medium heat, its finally hitting about 250F, but at this point the color always looks like the dark amber. I then add the suggested amount of water and the temp drops to about 225F. Still over medium heat it finally makes its way to soft ball (240F) in another 30-45 minutes at which point I remove and add to the boil. At this point the color is dark, I've never been able to produce a light or rose version of this even if I wanted to. I've done this with two different thermometers and two different stoves (gas and electric) with the same exact results both times. Am I doing something wrong?? All I want is to produce the rose color variation of this.

 

[schmittychris]

I know it's been a while but this thread needs to be revived. I made two batches of this today. The light and the deep amber. Both turned out fantastic. I make a lot of Belgians and the sugar costs always kill it for me. I'm glad that with about 20 min of work I can make my own. I'm using the light in a tripel I'm brewing this afternoon. Thank you OP for figuring this out.

 

[skitter]

Dude how did you get that clarity? Mine always crystalized upon cooling

 

[Shenanigans]

I tried the 280 version a few years ago but didn't have any DAP so used citric acid. It turned out nice but significantly darker than the pictures I have seen from others on here. It also has a very slight citrus hint which maybe from the citric acid or just normal. I would like to try make it again but I still don't have any DAP. Could I use something else? Lactic acid maybe and how much?
Thanks.