20 lb of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient

[Sevenal]

Got to be a great addition to the Stout I have been mulling around.
Your work is my gain. In an hour we can add a deep carmel plum profile to our wort.
I have read where people actually add the commercial product directly to the ferment stage. Anyone have any experience doing that? I am a little concerned about contamination.
Thank You Very Much!

 

[erikpete18]

Got to be a great addition to the Stout I have been mulling around.
Your work is my gain. In an hour we can add a deep carmel plum profile to our wort.
I have read where people actually add the commercial product directly to the ferment stage. Anyone have any experience doing that? I am a little concerned about contamination.
Thank You Very Much!

I've done that quite a few times using these recipes on Belgian beers. I generally wait until a few days into fermentation once it starts to slow and add it then, and I haven't had any contamination problems. I figure we're heating it up high enough to kill anything, and I'm adding it right after it cools down to around 90-100 degrees. You should be good to go!

 

[dlaney]

I've had success with the following that closely approximates Belgian D-2 that I bought at MLHBS. It is a slight modification of sugar #5 with an inversion step based on another web page (sorry I don't have the link):

2 lbs sugar + 1 cup water stir to mix
Heat to boiling, add 1 tsp lemon juice and boil 30 min at 212-220 f by adding water occasionally to control temp.
Add 1 tsp sodium bicarbonate and 3 tsp DAP, do not stir
Over low heat allow to reach 290 then carefully add 1 cup water. Allow to reach 270 then add 1 cup water. Take off heat when it reaches 230

The recipe called for potassium bicarbonate but I didn't have any. The small amount of sodium in the baking soda does not appear to have resulted in a strange flavor. Hopefully it will not affect the beer.

The taste is pretty close to D-2 with only a slight hint of added bitterness as an aftertaste. I got impatient and put the heat up to about half intensity which may have contributed to this difference.

 

[rshortt]

Thanks for the lead, dlaney. Is this where you found that info:

Nate O.'s Brew Log - Candi syrup secrets, and how to make your own

That guy seems to know what he's talking about so I'll try it that way as well sometime. I've done the sugar #5 a few times and also recently got my hands on some D-2 to compare.

 

[chuckstout]

Thanks for your work, used a 1lb in and taste great

 

[BridgewaterBrewer]

SnickASaurusRex, thanks for the awesome recipe and detailed info. I just ordered some DAP from AHS (free shipping this weekend on orders of $49 or more) and will be making it soon. What do you think about doing this in an oven set to 290? I don't have a candy thermometer but obviously the syrup won't exceed the temp of the oven and since you don't need to do a lot of stirring, it seems it wouldn't have to done on the stove.

 

[thirstyutahn]

Sorry if this has been asked before.

How might high altitude effect the additions and temps of this recipe?
My water boils arounds 204 because I'm at about 4700-4800ft.

I've actually made this syrup before and used it successfully but I had to basically go totally off of color of syrup not temp and that worked. Also I could not for the life of me get it to stay in syrup form. I have a feeling this might be one of the areas that is effected by altitude. Perhaps I needed more water or needed to heat the solution less at that point.

Any other high altitude people out there have any tips?

Thanks

 

[thirstyutahn]

Oh and I definitely hit my temps right I have a thermopen that I was using. I followed the directions exactly.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Sorry if this has been asked before.

How might high altitude effect the additions and temps of this recipe?
My water boils arounds 204 because I'm at about 4700-4800ft.

I've actually made this syrup before and used it successfully but I had to basically go totally off of color of syrup not temp and that worked. Also I could not for the life of me get it to stay in syrup form. I have a feeling this might be one of the areas that is effected by altitude. Perhaps I needed more water or needed to heat the solution less at that point.

Any other high altitude people out there have any tips?

Thanks

I had great success at 1000 ft but now I'm at 7500! I'd love some feedback on adjustments from any altitude brewers as well.

 

[TAPPAR]

Haven't read through the entire thread however I thought I should tell people about my experience in case it can help anyone

I used crosby and bakers yeast energizer since my LHBS didn't have pure DAP. I talked to one of the guys and he said that it was about 90% DAP when he looked it up so I figured I would shoot for just a little higher. I also read in here that the Malliard reaction didn't start until after 240ish. So my recipe is as follows:

4 lbs sugar (full bag, regular white beet sugar)
2 cups water
heat to 230, add 2 tsp yeast nutrient.
(it took a long time to come above 230-260 on a gas stove with a smallish flame)
It was taking forever to get up to 290 where I planned to stop it, I went away from the stove for about 5 min and it shot up to 320. I said 'ohh crap' and put two cups water in it.

At this point it was a amber color and had no burnt (or toasty) taste to it, but did have a very 'toasty' smell. I checked the temp and apparently my candy thermometer was about 10-20 degrees higher then it should be, so it probably only got up to 300ish. I added about 2 cups very slowly after I turned off the burner. When it got down to about 240 I added 1/2 tsp of the nutrient and heated it up to 280. It took forever to get past 260 then moved pretty quickly. It darkened a LOT on the second warm up, and developed a LOT more complexity. after it hit 280 I added another 1.5 cups water and turned off the heat.

All said and done it tastes a lot like the D2 Candi syrup I bought for my last beer. I didn't have them right next to each other however my syrup seemed to have more layers of flavor and stronger/sweeter overall taste. The first time I tasted the Candi syrup I bought it was kind of underwhelming with the flavor, tasted weak. Definitely not with what I made, and they were both very similar in viscosity.

I would highly recommend trying this. I will put it in my 3$/gal Belgian beer I am trying to develop. It is 10 lbs pils malt and probably 1/2 this syrup so I can tell what it tasted like fermented. I will be putting the other half in a ginger cider to add some complexity.

Ohh, I am in Iowa if anyone is trying to figure out how altitudes figure into the equation

 

[CZs]

Hi everyone - I've just started making home brews in the past 6 months. I can honestly say this is my favorite hobby ever and really haven't had a true hobby since collecting comics when I was 10 (now going on 30).

To give you a background on how I got into it, my bro-in-law bought me a Mr. Beer kit a couple holidays back and after being bored one Sunday morning I decided to open it up, make my first 2.5 gallon batch and then I got hooked. I've been into enjoying micro, home-brewed and some of those favorite Belgian/German, etc brews for a while now and being such a noob, wondered - how am I ever going to get to make a batch that could come close to something so unique, so delicious and complex as something I've had at a brew pub or that someone suggested I pair with a meal? I came across all-grain v. partial v. extract and all-grain brewing seemed to be the path for me - I love how detailed the process is and how a little change here or there can alter the outcome of your brew - customization is key for me as well as making something tried and true. and now much to my wife's amazement (thanks goodness she loves this hobby), i have gotten pretty adventurous while trying to become an amateur student of various styles.

My first batch was a Kolsch - I decided to add Caramunich and Crystal to give it a darker color and a toasty flavor - not traditional by any means, its good but, can you say gusher? Something went haywire with the first one (sanitizing but I thought I did a good job) - but, I spent a lot of time on it and heck its still drinkable even if I have to let it sit a little bit before enjoying.

Next was a Saison I adapted from I believe it was Reaper's recipe I found on these forums - this is where I learned patience in letting it ferment. It was so hard not to drink it while it was still "green" but yea, after a couple months it was even better. This is also where I found out that Saison is my favorite style to make and that 3711 is a monster and very kind to a noob like me. I can never say I perfected the style because I also learned what I really love in a brew - dryness and silky mouthfeel - this one had both oddly enough with a 1.00 OG and the flaked oats really made a huge difference

Next I wanted to try a hybrid of a triple and dubbel - so, I made my "2.5" - I didn't get it to the amber color I wanted, but it ended up more like Delirium Tremens/ Golden Strong - I got my clarity in check with this one and started messing around with candi sugar - made my own, it was tasty enough - just carmelly though and just added ABV, no flavors or color liked I hoped it would - probably relying too much on the sugar and not enough on the malt bill to darken it

Now, onto this topic of candi sugar - I just made what I call "All Hallows' Evening Saison" for next fall - I want to try and perfect the process and take notes on what I like/don't like about it before I really brew it come mid-summer. It is a Pumpkin Saison. I took some ques from the Stingy Jack recipe on here and then I found about about the debate over candi sugar. I purchased some Wyeast DAP and followed Snick's directions. IMO, whether the debate continues or not, my adaptation from his toilings had a direct positive effect on my Pumpkin Saison. I got mine up to 275, between light and dark amber with the DAP. I cooled it down with a steeped spice mix I had made 24 hours before and brought it up to hard crack (I prefer it hard, seems to stay better for me). The spice mix was Cinnamon sticks, whole clove, nutmeg powder, and a pinch of vanilla extract in Green Mountain's French Toast Coffee. The hard candy smelled and tasted like Pumpkin! I added a half a pound total of my "Pumpkin Candi Sugar" with 8, 6, 4 minute increments left in the boil. I tried a green bottle at the 7 day fermentation mark to see if I noticed this sugar I made and used - heck, if it didn't work I was still going to eat it! But, it absolutely made the Saison better - it smells and tastes like the pumpkin candy I made without it being overpowering - you can still tell it has the peppery and tang finish of a 3711 Saison.

Thought I would add this to the convo as Snick's contributions were a big help for my beer-making journey and that adding a cold, steeped spice mix to cool it down before bring it to soft or hard crack did the trick for me.

 

[BBB_Brewhaus]

Hi all,
Long time lurker on the site, but this thread got me to register so I could share what I tried today.

I was too lazy/cheap to buy/wait for DAP so I just used some fresh lemon juice and Wyeast yeast nutrient. I checked the Wyeast site and DAP was clearly one of the main ingredients. So, I used 2 tsp of that and a half lemon. Then I just boiled 1.5 cups H2O, added 3 lbs sugar and slowly boiled off the water until I reached 290. Poured onto aluminum foil and cooled. Samples tasted good. Mostly raisin and rum type flavors.

I'll probably get the DAP for the next attempt at this, but was glad to find a workable substitute among my collection of stuff.

Thanks for posting the guide......

 

[CZs]

Hi all,
Long time lurker on the site, but this thread got me to register so I could share what I tried today.

I was too lazy/cheap to buy/wait for DAP so I just used some fresh lemon juice and Wyeast yeast nutrient. I checked the Wyeast site and DAP was clearly one of the main ingredients. So, I used 2 tsp of that and a half lemon. Then I just boiled 1.5 cups H2O, added 3 lbs sugar and slowly boiled off the water until I reached 290. Poured onto aluminum foil and cooled. Samples tasted good. Mostly raisin and rum type flavors.

I'll probably get the DAP for the next attempt at this, but was glad to find a workable substitute among my collection of stuff.

Thanks for posting the guide......

I love the DAP method with 290 - I did a side by side comparison with D-45 and I'll bet yours was just like mine - almost exact same taste, and probably a little better / more complex - I also made the equivalent of 90 and 180 and again, tastes similar if not better - it isn't worth buying the stuff and I won't pay attention to what is considered authentic and what is not ever again - good beer is good beer - you can make any style with this home made stuff and it will taste within style, regardless if you decided to lay down change for store ordered syrup

It's funny because just about everything is from semi-scratch/scratch and you put in a lot of effort, then, you untwist these plastic bags and just "dump" - anytime I can do it myself, I will because I think it just makes the beer more of my creation - not to say those that buy the premade stuff don't make their own beer, but, i just don't buy in to the hype of your beer not being authentic enough without it - I've read plenty of people use plain old cane sugar or home made stuff, even just the caramelized sugar without the DAP, and have won competitions. Just because someone tells you to jump doesn't mean you have to.

 

[gizmodog51]

dap huh? interesting....

i have had good success with this recipe from:http://www.brew365.com/technique_candi.php

Make Your Own Candi Sugar
How To
In preparing to brew my first Belgian Saison style beer, I came across many references to the use of Candi Sugar as an adjunct in many recipes. Apparently the term 'candi sugar' is somewhat mistranslated or otherwise misinterpreted here in the US. Most homebrew shops sell these little rock-candy like crystals of varying shades of amber that we use here as the candi sugar adjunct. In Belgium, however, they make their own sugar syrup. As it turns out, this is quite easy to make ...
First off, you're going to need some sugar. Nothing fancy, just plain sugar. Second ingredient is some citric acid. If you have citric acid, great - if not, some lemon juice will be perfect too.
We're going to make a syrup out of your two ingredients so, you guessed it, we're gonna need to cook this up. Now, don't get excited and start digging out your brewpot and burner ... some Medium heat and a smooth-bottomed pan of some sort on the stove should do just fine. Put about 1 cup of sugar and 1 TSP of lemon juice (or pinch of citric acid) together over medium heat and stir (and keep stirring). The sugar will eventually start to melt. This is the part where you need to pay attention and know what style of syrup you're after. I was after a very light one, so I just barely let the sugar turn the palest of yellowish-brown. If you're making a darker beer, let it go a bit more but DO NOT let it burn or, worse, catch fire. Please!
When the sugar is at the right doneness, scrape it from the pan onto an aluminum foil covered surface. Take care as this is HOT and sticky. Not a good combination for exposed skin. Let this cool and harden up. Eat some if you want, it's not great.
Once the sugar is cool, you will need to re-add this to a pan over medium heat and add some water to achieve a consistency somewhere between maple syrup and honey. Let this come to a boil if you want and, voila! - candi sugar syrup the way the Belgian brewers do it.

simple and i like natural ingredients....

GD

 

[CZs]

dap huh? interesting....

i have had good success with this recipe from:http://www.brew365.com/technique_candi.php

Make Your Own Candi Sugar
How To
In preparing to brew my first Belgian Saison style beer, I came across many references to the use of Candi Sugar as an adjunct in many recipes. Apparently the term 'candi sugar' is somewhat mistranslated or otherwise misinterpreted here in the US. Most homebrew shops sell these little rock-candy like crystals of varying shades of amber that we use here as the candi sugar adjunct. In Belgium, however, they make their own sugar syrup. As it turns out, this is quite easy to make ...
First off, you're going to need some sugar. Nothing fancy, just plain sugar. Second ingredient is some citric acid. If you have citric acid, great - if not, some lemon juice will be perfect too.
We're going to make a syrup out of your two ingredients so, you guessed it, we're gonna need to cook this up. Now, don't get excited and start digging out your brewpot and burner ... some Medium heat and a smooth-bottomed pan of some sort on the stove should do just fine. Put about 1 cup of sugar and 1 TSP of lemon juice (or pinch of citric acid) together over medium heat and stir (and keep stirring). The sugar will eventually start to melt. This is the part where you need to pay attention and know what style of syrup you're after. I was after a very light one, so I just barely let the sugar turn the palest of yellowish-brown. If you're making a darker beer, let it go a bit more but DO NOT let it burn or, worse, catch fire. Please!
When the sugar is at the right doneness, scrape it from the pan onto an aluminum foil covered surface. Take care as this is HOT and sticky. Not a good combination for exposed skin. Let this cool and harden up. Eat some if you want, it's not great.
Once the sugar is cool, you will need to re-add this to a pan over medium heat and add some water to achieve a consistency somewhere between maple syrup and honey. Let this come to a boil if you want and, voila! - candi sugar syrup the way the Belgian brewers do it.

simple and i like natural ingredients....

GD

if you want to go strictly natural, you should try some date sugar too if you haven't already - you can just buy dates and let those suckers dry out at 350 for an hour, then left in oven overnight, puree or coffee grind those suckers - it adds a great raisin/date/rum-chewy flavor to the sugar - maybe a 1.5 cane, .5 date sugar combo - I found that I had to go through a little more water - was being ultra cautious because it is supposed to change over or brown more quickly

 

[gizmodog51]

if you want to go strictly natural, you should try some date sugar too if you haven't already - you can just buy dates and let those suckers dry out at 350 for an hour, then left in oven overnight, puree or coffee grind those suckers - it adds a great raisin/date/rum-chewy flavor to the sugar - maybe a 1.5 cane, .5 date sugar combo - I found that I had to go through a little more water - was being ultra cautious because it is supposed to change over or brown more quickly

thanx for that tip.....i will try date sugar on my next belgian dark!
and maybe can purchase it already made from a health food store....can't be much more expensive than whole dates....

GD51

 

[jtp137]

I love the DAP method with 290 - I did a side by side comparison with D-45 and I'll bet yours was just like mine - almost exact same taste, and probably a little better / more complex - I also made the equivalent of 90 and 180 and again, tastes similar if not better - it isn't worth buying the stuff and I won't pay attention to what is considered authentic and what is not ever again - good beer is good beer - you can make any style with this home made stuff and it will taste within style, regardless if you decided to lay down change for store ordered syrup

It's funny because just about everything is from semi-scratch/scratch and you put in a lot of effort, then, you untwist these plastic bags and just "dump" - anytime I can do it myself, I will because I think it just makes the beer more of my creation - not to say those that buy the premade stuff don't make their own beer, but, i just don't buy in to the hype of your beer not being authentic enough without it - I've read plenty of people use plain old cane sugar or home made stuff, even just the caramelized sugar without the DAP, and have won competitions. Just because someone tells you to jump doesn't mean you have to.

If 290 is close to D-45 how do you get the color of a D-90 or D-180 without all of the burnt sugar taste. I keep my heat really low and if I get over 290 degrees it taste burnt

 

[mredge73]

Add a little lime (1/4 to 1/2 as much as you use DAP) to help keep the sugar from burning.
Do not use an acid; that will accelerate the burnt candy apple taste.

 

[CZs]

If 290 is close to D-45 how do you get the color of a D-90 or D-180 without all of the burnt sugar taste. I keep my heat really low and if I get over 290 degrees it taste burnt

2 things that helped me out - not sure of what type of pot you're using - I use a 3 gal boiling pot, in other words:

A. I wouldn't use something that has a lot of surface area, but that is fairly deep - I wouldn't try more than 2 lbs at a time, especially when trying to match the 180.
B. Contrary to what is said, once you get past 290, I would absolutely stir, add the cool down water, bring back up to 290. This tastes very similar to D-90, no burnt taste, just a more potent, concentrated version of D-45 - think of some cocoa / toast flavor mixed in with the warm vanilla, figs, plums, stone fruit of the D-45.

also

C. For the 180, I used the 300F directions aka "Mahogany", and cooled it down, and brought it up to around 315- be prepared to use even more water on this one and to stir even more. It has a heavy, roasted cocoa, almost 80-90% Ghiardelli bittersweet, dark chocolate taste to it. It does have a hint of burnt marshmallows in the back after you smack your mouth a couple times but in no way is it "yuck" Almost would be for someone who likes their toast, bagel, muffin a little on the charred side - not terrible, just, a little over done. I don't think my equivalent or the D-180 is for everyone - but, if I'm reading correctly - and from what I've tasted, you should get some of those characteristics mixed in there with the stone fruit. Sure, maybe you can't call my an exact clone - but, I've had myself and others taste it side by side, and maybe in exact lovibond it isn't the same - but the taste profile is REALLY REALLY close.

I would even consider just using 300F "Mahogany" in combination with the 290 for a BDS or Dubbel - like them both. The Mahogany sugar with the DAP method tasts like chocolate covered caramels with maybe even some salty pretzel mixed in - if that makes sense.

 

[jtp137]

Do you reduce the sugar first? Using a bit of acid before you add the dap

 

[CZs]

i used lemon and lime juice, which made a sugar I used in a "Belgian 2.5" a little sweeter, but it still just had a caramelized vanilla flavor - it tasted very similar at clear, blonde, and amber stage - only when it got super dark did I get a "toasty caramel" flavor - not as complex - just varying levels of vanilla and caramel intensity - you aren't going to get the light to dark fruits as a result of the DAP reaction. Some have said DAP isn't enough and have used other vitamins and minerals, Potassium stands out as an example - but, I couldn't speak to the use of any of those ideas out there as DAP alone, and especially in combination with the unrefined and especially date sugar, got me as close as you can probably get to the D products without buying them.

I use strictly DAP now, and like I said - any unrefined sugars you can use will give you a more complex flavor - especially the date sugar IMO

just add the sugar, water, and DAP together in the pot, put on medium heat, and use your candy thermometer and eye for the flavor and color profile you want.

 

[Garrett]

Sugar #4 worked well for me but the gas let of during boiling are terrible. Flavor was good and tasted great after adding to a Belgian brune.

 

[CZs]

looks like a lot of fun - the smell is terrible and will clean out your sinuses and stay with you if you don't step away for a second or two - I try to have someone else with me that will give me a 2 minute break. The overhead fan and ventilation was a must for me - phew!

Will be interested to hear about your brune and what/if you notice anything from your sugar creation

 

[jtp137]

I've had success with the following that closely approximates Belgian D-2 that I bought at MLHBS. It is a slight modification of sugar #5 with an inversion step based on another web page (sorry I don't have the link):

2 lbs sugar + 1 cup water stir to mix
Heat to boiling, add 1 tsp lemon juice and boil 30 min at 212-220 f by adding water occasionally to control temp.
Add 1 tsp sodium bicarbonate and 3 tsp DAP, do not stir
Over low heat allow to reach 290 then carefully add 1 cup water. Allow to reach 270 then add 1 cup water. Take off heat when it reaches 230

The recipe called for potassium bicarbonate but I didn't have any. The small amount of sodium in the baking soda does not appear to have resulted in a strange flavor. Hopefully it will not affect the beer.

The taste is pretty close to D-2 with only a slight hint of added bitterness as an aftertaste. I got impatient and put the heat up to about half intensity which may have contributed to this difference.

Did anyone ever experiment using potassium bicarbonate or lime to raise the PH. Would they result in different flavors

 

[CZs]

lemon / lime juice in my experience will give you a sweeter product in the lighter stages, but, has given me more bitterness the darker I go

I might consider just using the lemon or lime during the cool down liquid stage or a minute or two before it hits the final soft or hard crack temp

really though - the DAP with unrefined is just about spot on IMO. Getting your hands on, or making your own Date sugar will put you over the top in the fruits taste and aroma category - it really made a difference in my recent Dark Strong. Chewy, rummy dates taste and aroma from the sugar.

If you use El Dorado hops along with the DAP sugar using a portion of date sugar - you'll be happy - I promise!

 

[jtp137]

lemon / lime juice in my experience will give you a sweeter product in the lighter stages, but, has given me more bitterness the darker I go

I might consider just using the lemon or lime during the cool down liquid stage or a minute or two before it hits the final soft or hard crack temp

really though - the DAP with unrefined is just about spot on IMO. Getting your hands on, or making your own Date sugar will put you over the top in the fruits taste and aroma category - it really made a difference in my recent Dark Strong. Chewy, rummy dates taste and aroma from the sugar.

If you use El Dorado hops along with the DAP sugar using a portion of date sugar - you'll be happy - I promise!

I ment using Calcium hydroxide not lime juice. I had good luck using it. I just made a Dark Strong with some of the sugar I put date sugar in it as well. It is fermenting in my open fermenter and smells awesome!!

 

[billl]

Just thought I'd add a couple more data points. Several people raised concerns about the fermentability of these syrups compared to Candi. I decided to run a few test batches before I committed to 5 gallons.

My test:
Sugar #1 = table sugar + DAP taken to 270
Sugar #2 = raw sugar + DAP take to 290, cooled and back to 290

Temps were raised very slowly and controlled with additional TSP of water while it boiled. Final temps were held for just a few seconds. Total time was 30 minutes for Sugar#1 and 60 minutes for Sugar#2

Taste/smell/color

Sugar#1 - quite sweet and mild caramel. Some vanilla and floral notes. Almost honeylike. Somewhere between straw and a light amber.
Sugar#2 - dark caramels, plum and raisin, dark fruit. No roastiness. Very tasty. Opaque black with some red tones on the edges.

I took each sugar and diluted with hot water to a 1.040 solution. (about 3 tsp for 1 Cup water). Each was put in a mason jar and cooled to 70 degrees. I pitched a bit of american ale yeast in both - no idea at dosage rates. Both were fermented at ambient temps of 75 for 1 week.

Results
Sugar #1 finished at 1.002 (temp corrected) = 95% attenuation
Sugar #2 finished at 1.003 (temp corrected) = 93% attenuation

Frankly, I'm pretty shocked by that, but numbers don't lie.

 

[BridgewaterBrewer]

Yes my understanding is that all these cooked sugars usually ferment out almost completely. Which begs the question of why bother to make these?
In a less flavorful beer like a Belgian ale, they come through but somewhat subdued. I made the 290 sugar syrup with DAP but used it in a porter so it's undetectable. But What brought me to this thread was a basic brewing podcast in which they compared various sugar syrups and there was one that barely fermented at all and the beer was very popular. That's what I'm looking for.

 

[jah777]

Great, thread! I admit I haven't made it through every page, but could someone explain why I need to use a candy thermometer rather than a regular digital cooking thermometer (I use a Taylor 1470 digital cooking thermometer)?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00004XSC5/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Also, would LD Carlson's Yeast Nutrient work as DAP? It says "Food grade Urea and diammonium phosphate"?:

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/yeast-nutrient.html

 

[billl]

"Yes my understanding is that all these cooked sugars usually ferment out almost completely. Which begs the question of why bother to make these? "

I think you are missing the point of belgian candi sugar then. It is supposed to ferment almost completely AND give flavor.