20 lb of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient

[Nateo]

Ysgard, what temps did you hit at the peak of the ramps? I was thinking of trying four ramps on the next batch @ 290 > 280 > 270 > 260 to try to maximize Maillard reactions and minimize caramelization. I think that would get me closer to the dark chocolate flavors in D2 syrup, but I guess we'll see.

 

[Tall_Yotie]

I was reading through this thread, and there is a lot of info on how to make it, and even how it tastes.

What I am really wanting to know is if anyone has actually used this in their beer (specifically a Belgian), and if so did it give the same effects to the final product as the store-bought stuff (deep fruits, etc.)?

There is a wide-spread distributor issue with the Belgian Candi Syrup supplier, at least here in the US. I have some brews that I need it for, and was going to make it on my own, but I have yet to really see anyone report back after using it in their brew with how it tastes in the final product.

Anyone have any tasting notes for their brews?

 

[jpoder]

I tried doing a 4 stage sugar last night...actually 2, one with table sugar and one with Turbinado. it was interesting that the Turbinado took much longer to reach the target temp at each ramp.

basics were that i used 1 LB of sugar, 1 cup of water, and 1 1/2 tsp of DAP for each. temp targets were 290, 280, 270, 260. once they hit the target temp I added 1 cup of cool water (knocked the temp below 240 after stirring)

The end products were remarkably similar despite one sugar being less refined than the other. The color is dead on for D2 syrup (used motor oil black, with a brown/red slight foam on top) taste, however still seems a bit lacking. very sweet (almost a sour/tart taste), but no dark chocolate flavor.

Don't get me wrong, these are not bad (and I've used them in my beer (resulting pending...)), but they don't seem to be a D2 clone. I'd like to try changing ratio of glucose/fructose and trying again. any other ideas to try?

 

[Nateo]

Since this thread is really long and cumbersome to navigate, I've started my own thread with some of my variations:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/candi-syrup-experiment-trying-clone-d2-220882/#post2588870

I think I'm onto something with the dextrose idea. I was able to get a lot of Maillard reactions without too much caramelization.

 

[smokinghole]

So I have a question. I have some jaggery in my house that is kitul jaggery which is palm sugar. This stuff is already dark, could there be any ill effects from cooking it like you guys are doing with white sugar?

 

[twohands]

It burns at a lower temp...go easy on the darker colors.

 

[KYB]

I tried doing a 4 stage sugar last night...actually 2, one with table sugar and one with Turbinado. it was interesting that the Turbinado took much longer to reach the target temp at each ramp.

basics were that i used 1 LB of sugar, 1 cup of water, and 1 1/2 tsp of DAP for each. temp targets were 290, 280, 270, 260. once they hit the target temp I added 1 cup of cool water (knocked the temp below 240 after stirring)

The end products were remarkably similar despite one sugar being less refined than the other. The color is dead on for D2 syrup (used motor oil black, with a brown/red slight foam on top) taste, however still seems a bit lacking. very sweet (almost a sour/tart taste), but no dark chocolate flavor.

Don't get me wrong, these are not bad (and I've used them in my beer (resulting pending...)), but they don't seem to be a D2 clone. I'd like to try changing ratio of glucose/fructose and trying again. any other ideas to try?

Why the declining target temps? What if one were to do a multi-stage rest increasing, like 260 and cool, bring up to 270 and cool, bring up to 280 and cool, bring up to 290 and cool? I looked around, maybe I'm just missing something.

 

[jpoder]

Why the declining target temps? What if one were to do a multi-stage rest increasing, like 260 and cool, bring up to 270 and cool, bring up to 280 and cool, bring up to 290 and cool? I looked around, maybe I'm just missing something.

You are bringing it just below the smoke/burning point at each successive rise. I'm sure someone else can give the food science explanation, but in practice the burn point is lower. You are trig to maximize the maillard reactions at each stage so want to go as high as you can without burning the sugar.

 

[JeffB]

I just made some dark amber for the first time, I took it nice and slow and everything came out very nice. My candy thermometer is a POS though, its at least 20 low. I stopped mine when I got the color as posted way in the beginning of this thread. It tastes great, is very raisin like with no bitter or burnt flavor at all. I had very little crystals in the pot when I was done, I attribute this to really taking the temps up slow. It took about 1 hour 15 minutes. I did not bring it back to temp after the last water addition, I just let it go to room temp. Im making this https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f66/caramel-amber-ale-167880/ tomorrow as my first all grain and am very excited.

Ill report back.

 

[Josh254]

I followed the instructions on this thread and made three batches of this syrup. The first I added to a dubbel that I made which, resulted in a moderately high final gravity (1.016). The second batch was very bitter which I think may be due to heating too quickly. The third batch tastes great, but when I did an experiment to see how fermentable it was, nothing happened. All of the batches of syrup that were made were the dark version (either brought up to 290* once or twice).

A good friend of mine has been experimenting with this recipe as well and his dark syrup did not ferment either. He made two sugar solutions, one of the dark syrup and one of sucrose. Both solutions had a starting gravity of 1.050. The sucrose fermented out almost completely where the dark syrup lost either 2 or 4 gravity points.

Any ideas? Thanks

 

[KYB]

So apparently the malliard reaction needs nitrogen, and the DAP chemically reacts producing nitrogen for the mallaird reaction. Would it be plausible to inject nitrogen gas into the solution and skip the DAP? Maybe that's what dark candi does, or maybe I just have no idea what's going on chemically, which is highly likely.

Edit: Nevermind, this is far more complex than I thought. I need to learn some chemistry. I only touched in it in school. This may be helpful to some.
http://class.fst.ohio-state.edu/fst605/605p/Maillard.pdf

 

[Nateo]

ODaniel: I've made Snick's syrup #5 and it's pretty good, but nowhere near D2. I've come a bit closer, if you're interested.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/candi-syrup-experiment-trying-clone-d2-220882/index6.html

 

[KYB]

Yea I was just trying to figure all this out. I want to make some tomorrow but I can't get DAP around here, and don't want to pay $7 shipping for something tiny costing a few bucks. The grocery didn't have ammonium carbonate either (leavening).

I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet, but I found this bit of info:

�� pH influences the ratio of products formed
�� the rate of color formation can be reduced by decreasing
the pH

Not sure if it's helpful or not, but seemed interesting.

Also, if you don't beat me too it (although feel free, I'm lazy), I'd like to try one recipe, and change the sugar each time but keep everything else the same. I want to see if there is a different in taste between Dextrose/Glucose/Corn Sugar, Cane Sugar, and Beet Sugar (both sucrose). Why the initial chemical makeup is the same between cane and beet sugar, I have read multiple times they react different in cooking. If I do try anything I'll post in your thread.

 

[Nateo]

ODaniel, thanks for the link! I'm going to try varying the pH in my sugar solutions to see how it changes the finished product. FYI in my experiments without any pH adjustments, the pH was at or under 4 on all the syrups.

 

[Crustovsky]

If I'm reading ODaniel's link correctly wouldn't something as simple as milk be a reasonable source of the amino acids and nitrogen for a Maillard reaction to occur? I'd probably make my chem teachers from back in high school cry asking that but as far as I can tell it meets the requirements and is completely reasonable to think it might be used to create a syrup. If someone with a better understanding of the chemistry behind this would explain why I'm an idiot I'd appreciate it.

 

[Nateo]

Crusty: That's really interesting, and I think I'll try that this weekend. I'll let you know then if it's really dumb or not.

 

[Steelers77]

Just a little feedback for those who have not tried this recipe. It works so well, I've made about 20lb of candy sugar using this thread and I have been pleased every time. Just try it!

 

[orangehero]

More.

 

[Crustovsky]

So I'm curious; has anyone found any substitute for the yeast nutrient suggested in the original post?

 

[RchanceN]

So I got bored writing a mid-term paper tonight, poured a Highland Seven Sisters, and decided to experiment. I did a triple stage 290F syrup just to see what would happen and I got one that is darker, more complex, some toffee, darker fruit, and tasting than my first attempt of a double stage 290F. Maybe not surprising...

After the third water addition, it bubbled (it doesn't really foam, but a boil over with DME comes to mind) A LOT more and reached the top of the pot before I took it off the burner. Anyone know why this happened?

Caramelization of sucrose occurs at 320F as I understand it, so I didn't caramelize right?

 

[Nateo]

Caramelization of sucrose occurs at 320F as I understand it, so I didn't caramelize right?

Caramelization is one of the pathways that Maillard reactions take, so in the presence of DAP the sugar will caramelize at a much lower temperature, among other reactions.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Just got through making sugar #5...wow that took a while!!! But it is perfect. Dark, roasty, rummy, dark fruit, dark chocolate...this is going to be awesome in chemnitz's Vespers Abbey Dubbel

Thank you to everyone who made contributions, especially SnickASaurusRex and Nateo. I will definitely be doing more experimentation with this, especially fermentability tests and direct comparisons with DarkCandi products.

This is why I love HBT

 

[Nateo]

Sugar #5 makes a really good dubbel. I've had great success with that.

 

[nchapelle]

subbed

 

[whclay]

I am Brewing Sunday. Can someone take a look at my recipe and give any advice? New to this.

Malt
6.6lb Light LME
1 lb Golden DME
Spec Grains
1lb Caramel 40L
8oz. Victory

60 min boil. 2 gal. for 5 gal batch

60min 1.5oz Centannial whole 11.6
60min 2 oz cascade pellet 5.0
30 min 1 oz centennial whole 11.6
15 min centennial whole 11.6
5 min willamette pellet 4.6
dry hop 7 days 1 oz centennial whole 11.6
secondary 14 to 21 days

nottingham yeast

this is an IPA Kit that I just took some of the parts of just the grains and malts, ignored some of them (most of the hops) and added some to make an APA. according to my calc this should come out to 63.2 IBU 6 SRM 5.9% ABV OG - 1.059 FG - 1.015.
My question is will the combination of ingredients and the schedule produce a nice hoppy ale that is still drinkable. What I am going for here is like a 2 hearted ale with a bit more character. Only other ingred. I have that I could play with are some Columbus Hop pellets and some more cascade hop pellets. any advise would be welcome

 

[rjwhite41]

Looks fine for an IPA but this isn't the best thread to be posting that. Post in the recipe/ingredients section and you'll get more feedback.

 

[mezzoblue]

Without claiming to know a thing about the science behind it, I made a few test batches of syrup this past week before brewing a Dubbel. Nothing to report about the beer itself yet since it's still in the fermenter, but for what it's worth here's what I discovered about the syrup.

I started with Syrup #4, the 290F version, and made three batches with different sugars: raw organic cane sugar, refined white cane sugar, and dextrose. Cane sugar was the only one worth talking about, the other two turned out terribly. I then made a fourth batch without DAP, to see how pure caramelized sugar stood up to the rest. It was flat and one-dimensional, not something I'd put in my beer.

The 290F cane sugar batch was incredible. Smelled great when cooking, like caramelized sugar and toast. The final result is a smooth, richly dark syrup that days later remains crystal-free. It tastes incredibly complex. Rich, dark fruits like plum and cherry. A bit toasty (though the lighter stages tasted more so), with hints of chocolate and rum.

But that said, there's a slight hint of burnt bitterness that I'm not as fond of at 290F. I suspect it's just a shade too hot. A very quick change occurs between 285F and 290F, the syrup goes noticeably darker in a hurry and bubbles far more furiously. For me anyway, I think the magic number is 285F, after that point the caramelization seems to take off and butt up against the burnt end of the register.

What's clear to me after all this is that the nitrogen provided by the DAP is absolutely critical to facilitating the maillard reaction and creating such a rich complex syrup. Next time I'll keep the temperature a bit lower, but I had no problems brewing with the 290F syrup as it was, the complexity I was looking for was there in spades.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

mezzoblue, you put many of my own thoughts when making #5 into succinct and eloquent words. I cannot wait to taste my dubbel!

Here's hoping both of our brews are the best we have ever made

 

[Beernewb]

what kind of pot should I use to try and pull this off? I have a stainless steel 8qt pot from IKEA, but it specifically states not to coo it too bast or it wil warp. I only want to make 1/2 batches, so i asume 8 qt is good, just not sure if I need a specific type of pot for more efficient heating and quick cooling.
thanks.

 

[mezzoblue]

what kind of pot should I use to try and pull this off? I have a stainless steel 8qt pot from IKEA, but it specifically states not to coo it too bast or it wil warp. I only want to make 1/2 batches, so i asume 8 qt is good, just not sure if I need a specific type of pot for more efficient heating and quick cooling.
thanks.

I only made a half batch myself, and I think the cast iron pot I used (best choice for temperature changes) was only a 1 quart. You want to use a smaller pot that allows a deeper volume in order to get a proper reading from your candy thermometer.