2 x 2 16 gauge - OK for 15+ gallons?

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Thanks very much guys, you've been really helpful. We're making good progress and took your advice ancient, doing it in smaller but more focused chunks. All that's left is correcting the top, seating it, and installing the heat shields. Trippr, awesome idea, many thanks.

All of you, many thanks again. I'll post some pics once it is done.
 
BTW, addendum. Coughing up nasty black chest sputum is not my idea of smart. It only took the welding sessions to date to accept the "duh" of this. Stepping away, not a bad idea at this point as I want to make sure the top itself is well done - it's the last main thing. The main bar is bowed from the vessel supports pulling on it, and I've learned to tack since then, so thinking on next step.

But mainly taking a break today to recoop (I know, and it feels lame, but this knocks the crap out of me), and look for a relatively cheap way to help limit coughing up coal for my family's enjoyment.
 
Positive ventilation if you're working in a closed space. And keep your head up-wind :)
I have a legit/pricey respirator in my shop but with enough airflow and staying up-wind I haven't needed it for welding.

btw, I noticed you were having issues with your helmet.
When I started I picked up an autodark model from Harbor Freight and love it.
Huge aggravation reliever compared to the fixed shade that came with the welder...

Cheers!
 
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OK, thanks Trippr. I'll try to ensure that ventilation before the next, possibly final welding session. I think that HF helmet is the one I saw Jody from Welding Tips and Tricks recommend, and it seems like it makes it so much easier. At this point I'm so close to finishing I'll probably just use this helmet (weirdly, I guess, morning-noonish sun makes for great light - just right, with no glare - in the garage. So I try to jump in heavy in the morning), but if I continue with this, it's a no-brainer, I think. Thanks.

OK, wanted to ask you and the others. A fairly disheartening result as I looked today, and I don't know if it's salvageable. My first frame, "Ugly Betty," was distorted like crazy, as I think I mention above. Didn't know a thing and just welded the uprights right to left, and the horizontal bottoms distorted so that the frame had the mild appearance of a toboggan. And it rocked, like a bad restaurant table - like the whole frame was not only curved like the toboggan, but twisted some.

Well, on this frame, I probably overwelded too many joints in trying to deal with burnthrough, etc., not knowing (and now, it seems obvious), that the more I did this, the more the potential for heat distortion. I'm also just a crappy welder. The frame rocks. As it is, it all goes to one leg and tilts out of plumb. If I basically do like a restaurant table and rock off that leg and support, all of the three other legs are solidly on ground and the frame at least appears plumb (your instrument looked great, trippr. "Next time," if there is, another lesson learned).

Can I just weld a small portion of tubing as a butt weld on this leg, so that the whole thing is more or less corrected? Or is that begging for failure, the piece coming off (Murphy: middle of a 20 gallon brew), and that's a bad idea? Any thoughts?
 
It doesn't take much difference to make something rock like a bastid. Assuming your legs have "ends" I'd try to solve the problem with your angle grinder.
Block each leg until you get the frame level - presumably the longest leg will remain on the floor - measure the block heights, translate the differences into solid marks on the legs that need some love, then go to town...

Cheers!
 
Are you sure your floor is flat and level? You might consider adding some leveling screws so that you can make the frame stable regardless of floor geometry

No, I'm not ancient and thanks for raising that. Another noob admission is that I don't yet know how to install casters, which I have and had planned to install, but I love your idea. The legs are simply open ended at this point. I did have the thought tonight after trippr's suggestion to place the frame where I'll actually be brewing, which is just outside the garage, and check for level there. And this is exceedingly uneven ground, the driveway. I am compelled to this because as I've said elsewhere we rent, and share the garage with our neighbors. Never thought of the idea of adjustable leveling screws so I have more of a choice - many thanks! Now comes the noob part - how do you install these? Weld caps on the legs, then drill and install the screws?

OK, while we're here, man, truly embarrassing (my expertise is so not in these arts), but I presume, trippr, we're talking machine screws for installing the shields? Er, um, do you drill a smaller hole first through the shield/1 x 1, then drive the screws?
 
The way I like to install leveling feet on square tubing:

Start with square plates about 1/4" larger than your tubing. Drill a clearance hole for your leveler in the center. Using a bolt with the same thread as your leveler, sandwich the plate with a nut on each side. Just gently finger tight, no wrenching.

Now tack weld both nuts to the plate. Remove the bolt and run a good bead all around the nuts. This has to be solid, because you'll never have access to the upper nut again. When the assembly is cool, run a tap all the way through to clean up the threads.

Now weld this nut plate to the end of your tube. You've created strong threads in material too thin to tap.

I took a look on Amazon and ebay for leveling feet. Not much on Amazon, and very high prices. Ebay was better. Or you can just use regular bolts.
 
wrt casters, I used the kind with the rubber compression sleeves, but they're not actually height-adjustable as you're supposed to stuff them fully into the open tubing end to the stop before cranking the compression bolt.

But you can buy casters with threaded stems. Generally folks weld a cap on the tube end, drill an over-size clearance hole in the center, then weld a nut to the cap. You'd then run a lock nut onto the caster stem, screw it into the cap nut, and lock the elevation with the lock nut.

As for the screws, with 14 gauge I believe you could use sheet metal screws with a pilot hole, or use machine screws with tapped holes.
The former would be easier/cheaper for sure if you don't have a tap set.

For sheet metal screws I use a micrometer on the screw and drill a hole sized for the skinny section (between the threads).
But there are tables like this one on the web for pilot hole sizes vs sheet metal screw size...

Cheers!

[edit] ancient posted while I was in the edit pane, but I like his idea, it'd be a stronger solution.
 
Self-drilling and tapping screws are available. The drill is built in to the screw, so it's always the right size, and you have a new drill point for each screw. Just be sure to center punch, they do like to wander.
 
Are you sure your floor is flat and level? You might consider adding some leveling screws so that you can make the frame stable regardless of floor geometry
This ^^^^
I’m guessing your floor could be off. Myself, if I had 3 that were flat, and I knew the floor was flat, I’d just extend the one. If you get casters, you may be able to add a few flat pieces to the bottom of the off leg if it isn’t crazy off.
You do need a fan going. FC wire puts off the funk.
Keep rocking, a pretty structure doesn’t make better beer. [emoji1417]
 
Was away over Christmas in the U.P. without internet (a "back 40" of my SIL's, intermittent connectivity), you guys, so a much belated thanks for your help. I think I'll be doing this in stages, as I want to get brewing!, so will just be leveling on the bare open ended legs until I get going enough to say, "OK, finish it up."

This has been a real PITA, all of my doing. So, the Spike Vessels would fit perfectly on supports spaced 17 3/4" (outside, 13 1/4" space between the 2 x 2 supports) - IF THEY WERE FLAT ALL THE WAY. My complete negligence in forgetting part of the design of their vessels is a beveled bottom, so the tri-ply disc is much narrower and 15 1/2 OD/11 1/2 ID spacing would give the vessels solid support, with some of that tri-play sitting fully on the support.

Fine. Grinding and cutting existing supports off to start over. However, in fitting it up, going with supports at 15 1/2" OD, that 11 1/2" gap is now too narrow for the Brewer's Hardware heat shield, which is 12" D. That's without any spacer studs whatsoever, it would mean drawing the shield in a bit and anchoring it directly to the support, which I don't really want to do (I'd prefer not to drill into the supports, and I'd prefer if there's some heat buffer between the shield and supports. Maybe it's all a non-issue. Something like this:

BH5418.jpg



It feels like this is a heck of a lot more complicated than it should be, and I've just goofed this thing up from the start. I see a ton of vessels resting well on the supports, with 1" spacer studs to the heat shields, top split splayed forward as shown on the BH site. What am I missing?
 
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Well guys, first of all, happy new year to friends here and abroad. I hope 2018 turns out to be a year of prosperity, peace, and good health for all of us. Northern and Cire (and I'm sure others), I do feel badly I've not yet replied to your considered thoughts....feel if someone takes the time to reply, it behooves to take it in and at least reply back. Just want to say, haven't forgotten, just playing catch up.

Now:

I burned my friend's angle grinder trying to cut these supports off. I've never seen this - like, not sparks, but a serious amount of fire shooting out. It was an older one, but I'm concerned I did something wrong. Stupid, and I count myself lucky anyway. Diamond wheel and no guard.

My friend gets a new grinder of course; I'm still left with trying to get these things off. In addition, on another piece, I got a moment of pretty nasty kickback though I hold strong with two hands. Given my long history of being a klutz and consequent accidents (did I say I shot myself with my brother's crossbow as a kid?), I'm wondering if I'm courting disaster.

I only have 4 supports to do. I understand trying to hacksaw through the bead itself is futile, but what if I saw on the near side of the bead, and use a grinder to simply grind everything flush again? I've no experience with oxy, much less cutting torch. That being said, is that the standard, really, in doing something like this? Is there a big issue with distortion near the area of the cuts (these would be perpendicular to the horizontal support member)? My friend actually has an oxy setup with torch....and I know....but I'd like to learn this anyway....

Finally, I hate to do it as I've come this far, but any thoughts on taking it in to a shop to just sever these supports, and make clean, flush surfaces, so I can weld new ones in place at the correct position (about 2" closer together)? Any idea on what a reasonable cost would be?

And this may sound ridiculous, wasteful, and a host of other things. Part of me also thinks, just buy another $140 worth of stock and start over, as I do feel like I've learned a lot in doing this one, listening to you guys and just getting a feel in place, as opposed to reading from a book. I then have a pretty well-connected piece of scrap for future projects. (on the other hand, itching to brew and it's so close. So....)
 
I don't see a problem with hacking below the beads to free up the tube then grinding it smooth.
I think a torch would be bound to make at least as big a mess and potentially scorching things you don't want scorched.
And if you take the frame to a shop you're gonna be tempted to let them finish it. Questionable juju ;)

Cheers!
 
I don't see a problem with hacking below the beads to free up the tube then grinding it smooth.
I think a torch would be bound to make at least as big a mess and potentially scorching things you don't want scorched.
And if you take the frame to a shop you're gonna be tempted to let them finish it. Questionable juju ;)

Cheers!

Man you just read my mind, trippr, lol. I was not totally honest and yes, I was thinking, "and what would you guys charge to put the 4 supports here, after you sever them? Then, these things, the heat shields...then....."

Yeah, busted, well done buddy.:D Alright, will give it a try. And thanks for the insightful post.
 
Well, if nothing else, you've learned why welding is considered a skilled trade!

I noticed you are using a diamond grinding wheel. Those are for ceramic tile and concrete, I'd expect trouble using it on mild steel. I use reinforced aluminum oxide cutoff wheels. If you have a reciprocating saw with a metal cutting blade, that might work better for you. Just slow the blade speed down. Just saw or grind right through the bead.

A plasma cutter does a good job of cutting weld beads, a cutting torch is better suited to demolition and scrapping.

I think, if I were in your position, I would scab this Mk1Mod0 rig together and start brewing. Then you'll have a full list of what you want for your 'final' rig.

You might be dissatisfied with what you have done so far, but you are light years ahead of the great majority who never even try.
 
Thanks fellas. I gave it a try today but at -10F it wasn't too successful going as my bod just can't take the cold like it used to. Using the diamond wheel in attempting the cuts, I feel like a moron, ancient. I'm sure my friend presumed I'd know this most basic thing when he handed over the angle grinder w/diamond wheel on board. I do have a cheap HF recip saw with bimetal but it was really slow going. My other friend lent me his grinder, which I've kept to grinding all along and feel a bit loathe to attempt cutting with it. I don't know if I can keep the guard on, and mount an abrasive cutting wheel, anyway?

I feel like I've maybe dodged serious injury a couple times at least on this build, just from sheer ignorance. So close to the end, I'll probably just use a hack saw to remove the supports and fit the second side/mitered member that remains (farthest, short member in photo above). Everything is tacked up otherwise and it looks serviceable to me, so I'll wait out this frigid spell (highs not breaking low teens all week - mostly 5-10F) and finish it up. I can't see any way to do these but 12" between the supports and the heat shields directly attached to those supports, without spacing studs.

Thanks for the help and support guys, all of you. Happy New year once again!
 
Sounds like you have a plan. Grinding the welds out with the right disk shouldn’t give you any issue. Maybe go to the big box store during the cold spell and get you a few cutoff disks. Have a grinding disk to finish it too. Learning on your own is a hard road. I remember my father years ago when I was starting my first fab job. It was a pipe rack for my truck when I started in business. I was already to be the student. He came out, turned on the lights holding his coffee cup and responded, “there is the welder, let me know if you need some coffee.” Out the door he went, he said nobody learns chit by watching. Good on ya for getting it done. If you ever build another, you’ll know what is up. My pipe rack may not have been perfect, but it is still in use today 20 years later. [emoji6]
 
Thanks for all your help, and thanks for your sharing your story as well, Dog House. In isolation, one can feel like a bit of a dumba$$ (or, one is just a dumba$$, lol); it helps to know even you experienced guys had to learn at some point.

Thanks again. Frustrating waiting out this cold, but what are you gonna do?
 
I recon building your first brew stand is a lot like broken bones.
...hard to imagine surviving the first one ... course after you've had one, it was no big deal. ;)
Keep plugging Paul, and happy new year.
 
Thanks buddy. Supports came off relatively easy as it turns out, with the recip and bimetal. Had to find the right technique to start getting some grab. Ground down smooth and the remaining side member is rough-cut (the chop saw isn't great on giving a true 45 deg., so I cut large and grind down). Still sub-zero, so pretty brutal but I wore my old hunting base layer and was pretty much good to go, lol. I think it's going to go fast from here (I shouldn't say that), just won't be pretty with the miss on heat distortions and tacking, etc. She'll work. Christened Ugly Betty II.

Thanks for everything and again for the support. And best of years to you too, Sleepy.
 
Show off some pictures of Ol’ Betty. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

Hahahah, well man, afraid you've busted me, buddy. I'm EMBARRASSED to show her to you master craftsman, lol!!

OK, I'll try to snap a shot and show...er, her...to y'all. I suspect by all my protests so far, you guys probably know how much I want to be done with this phase, and be starting with that other phase, and I count brewing and drinking as one phase, btw...!

I'll try to get a couple shots that show this but it seems there's kind of a line of warping on a diagonal, for some reason - if you rock it, you can rock the left front leg or rear right leg up. If I shim the rear right up, the rig itself is level, but then that side member is ridiculously lifted. And I re-measured to make sure I didn't do something truly stupid (the build itself has just been, "significantly stupid") and mis-measure the leg. All verticals result in 2' length, so it's not mis-measured/mis-cut.

I just thing it's badly warped because I'd forgotten what happens along a long beam when welding, if you don't do it right. Can you cold-clamp with a pipe clamp, something like that, to true something like this? Or do you have to heat it? Or, after seeing this - like you said, Stealth, no pretense to doing this even halfway right! - just go and brew?

I'm writing too much and posting too few pics, sorry. I'll get a couple up in an hour or two and hope they show what I mean. Much appreciated guys. Still brutally cold here so I hope everyone is well and warm.
 
Temps and light dropping, prudence said, get on it, lol. Hope these give something. Be kind...!

Looking at it again, at the first tier (not really featured here - lower level; you can see it in the last pic below), there's a lot I really blew it on. Next time....or maybe this time, as it's kind of driving me nuts to even brew on this, if I can....all cutting, grinding, jigging, first; making sure the thing fits and looks perfect before ever getting to a weld, and then, the entire thing tacked. All this perfect before one bead laid down.
I obviously didn't do that this time. :bravo:

Anyway, the far member is the one I'm talking about (it's not yet tacked - I am waiting to possibly recut or try another way in). That vertical leg is the right length, and welded at the same level as elsewhere, but it's lifted way out of whack, which you can see.

perspective.JPG
2.JPG
1.JPG
 
So it looks like your miter is too long no?
You could have picked a little more difficult and intricate stand to build, lol!! I think it looks pretty freaking good. I was expecting ugly Betty to be like FUGLY Betty. Looks like an easy fix to me. Nice job so far IMO.
 
So it looks like your miter is too long no?
You could have picked a little more difficult and intricate stand to build, lol!! I think it looks pretty freaking good. I was expecting ugly Betty to be like FUGLY Betty. Looks like an easy fix to me. Nice job so far IMO.

Wow, I was girding up for all the laughing to die down first, didn't expect this, Dog House. Very kind and many thanks man.

The miter is definitely toast, I'll have to cut another one. It wasn't fitting well initially and I went gonzo with the grinder, not even sure what I was thinking at the time, anymore, lol.

I'll just do what I can to make this thing work, and I'm really grateful to you and to everyone else as there's no way I could have done even this without all your help. Cheers guys. I'll post something of it when it's done. And I promise, well, almost promise, it won't be this:

TheBurrow_WB_F4_TheBurrow_Illust_100615_Land.jpg


:eek:
 
Hey guys, I indicated I'd post some pics once it's completed but I realized I have an additional question. I'm going to mount the heat shield with screws, but the pump mounts I have come from BrewersHardware, are stainless and are much thicker than the heat shield so my guess is that screwing them on the frame is probably not going to work. Right?

Just wondering how I'd weld them on, when I don't have gas shielding (flux core only), and we've got mixed stainless on mild. Probably not possible? Any suggestions?

BTW, primary welding of frame is completed and I'm pleased to report I survived, as did the frame. It has this "twist" warp in it but I was able to get the second and final miter set filed and set together well enough, and we're on. I'm just going to shim for now, and improve it over time. I put one of my Spike vessels on each area and everything checks out really well, vessel is seated, steady, and level, with the exception of that far miter/side member, which is a very minor issue, functionally, a non-issue I think.
 
Glad to hear things are going your way. I tried to find the pump mounts you mention but came up empty. Why does being thicker prevent you from screwing them to the frame?

Hey ancient, thanks for such a quick reply and for the good wishes. The mounts are here, but it looks like they don't have pics up, can't recall if they ever did. In addition to the 4 pump mounting holes, there's a fairly large hole at one end, and I don't know what it's used for. Perhaps the March? Can't see the purpose on my Chuggers, at any rate.

On screwing, just betraying my ignorance it seems. Totally unaware you can use sheetmetal screws to join two pieces of metal like this - only because the heat shields are fairly thin, so I presumed with the mounts, it's too thick. Good to know, many thanks. Dumb question but I presume this also means flux-core like I'm using, for stainless, is a non-starter, right?

Oh, and my drills are both corded and cheap, no great way to slow them down/torque either one up. Is that a requirement for doing this (never used self-tapping screws before)?

Thanks again.

Edit: This image is pretty close, just imagine maybe a 3/8" hole between 2 corner mounting holes at either end.

pumpweld-1__57386.1494379886.500.750.jpg
 
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Well, if you can't slow the drill down, just be sure not to run the screw tight under power, it'll snap off 9 times out of 10. You'll have to drill oversize holes through the mounting plate, then use the plate as a guide to drill the screw holes. When the threads catch, tighten the screws with hand tools.

With a high speed drill, you'll want to drill in short bursts, giving the bit plenty of time to cool. Easy to do, hard to describe. Just experiment on scrap.

Will the screw heads interfere with the pump? You might need to countersink the holes and use flat head screws.

It's late, and I'm sort of wandering here. Hope this is helpful.
 
Just remembered I have an unmounted Chugger on hand. Does yours have the square opening in the base? If so, locate your screw heads there. If not, you can use stacks of washers under the corners to raise the base clear of the screws. Probably easier than countersinking and using flatheads.
 
Well, if you can't slow the drill down, just be sure not to run the screw tight under power, it'll snap off 9 times out of 10. You'll have to drill oversize holes through the mounting plate, then use the plate as a guide to drill the screw holes. When the threads catch, tighten the screws with hand tools.

With a high speed drill, you'll want to drill in short bursts, giving the bit plenty of time to cool. Easy to do, hard to describe. Just experiment on scrap.

Will the screw heads interfere with the pump? You might need to countersink the holes and use flat head screws.

It's late, and I'm sort of wandering here. Hope this is helpful.

It is helpful, thanks very much ancient. And yep, the base of the pump raises it clear of the mount screws, I believe.
 
On a pump mount like that you could still weld it from the bottom with your fluxcore. It wouldn't be stainless right in the weld zone but that would be okay.

Hey Sandy, thanks for coming in. And sorry to have to say, I'm a welding idiot.:D

Can you tell me what you mean by welding it from the bottom? Do you mean, vertical welds, dragging upwards? And I'm sorry, but I do want to learn more (even though the job is ugly, I learned a lot and am very interested in learning more - my friend said "just hold on to the mig till whenever, spring's fine, etc.". So can you talk a bit more about the stainless in the weld zone idea? Do you mean, I'll basically just be joining with filler and mild?
 
If you lay that plate on the square tube and weld the bottom side that you can't see from the top then you have a flat area to bolt the pump.

All I was saying is that when you weld stainless to mild you lose the stainless nature in the weld area. But that isn't a real concern since it isn't in a "food grade" area.
 
If you lay that plate on the square tube and weld the bottom side that you can't see from the top then you have a flat area to bolt the pump.

All I was saying is that when you weld stainless to mild you lose the stainless nature in the weld area. But that isn't a real concern since it isn't in a "food grade" area.

OK, many thanks, Sandy. I don't know if this is an easy answer and it's a rider to this question, but while I find I'm getting there on fillet welds, in any position, my welds - don't know what they're formally called - where an open end is joined to a cross member along it's length, I almost never can avoid burnthrough. I've tried increasing stickout, crossing back and forth and moving quicker, not much help. Also, discovered when I was laying them down with full welds, the ends of the vessel supports lay across a horizontal member. I'd have thought this was an easy weld as the fit is tight, at least visually. But it seemed almost no matter what angle I was shooting, I'd get cold lapping along the horizontal member and the vessel support section would look virtually untouched....?

Don't trouble yourself Sandy, or guys, on these things, if it's a bother. I'm fine with as ugly as she is as I do think she's safe and functional. I'll research over time but I find it curious.
 
OK, well, this one I do want to bother you guys on, lol.

I think I've decided to either tack or stick weld the pump mounts. They're actually 11 gauge ss, whereas the frame is 14 gauge mild, and given my inexperience, never mixed metals (dealt with above - thanks), much less thicknesses, so any guidance would be much appreciated. I don't have any great means to drill through these to do a self-drilled screw mount. I will be doing the screw mounts for the heat shield.

Now: It's still cold here, though like spring compared to last week. Talking coatings. Just a quick and dirty:

1. Powder, hired out
2. Hi-Temp paint (can you even do this in cold weather?)
3. iron oxide, because I want like crazy to get going brewing.

Thoughts? Oh, did I say I'd pay off anyone who provides a cogent defense of option (3)? :yes:
 
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