2 element 120v setup wouldn't boil full volume 5 gallon batch.

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Justdrumin

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I just finished building a controller per one of PJ's diagrams. I made my control panel with a pid, single element outlet, pump outlet, switches for a pump, element and pid. One element is a 6000w element hard mounted in a 70 quart pot. I made a 5500w heat stick to supplement the single element in the kettle and running them at 120v which per my calculator gives me 2875w. This should get me to a boil no problem. It got up to 208 and wouldn't get higher than that. I plugged both elements in straight to the wall bypassing the controller and it still wouldn't bring it to a boil. I let them sit for almost two hours and it didn't get over 208. Anyone have any ideas why it won't boil?
 
Agree with @BrunDog. More data needed. I'm a 120v brewer. Boiled 13 gallons this past weekend with one 1500 watt element at full blast and the other at 70%, so about ~2500 watts total. You shouldn't have problems boiling 6 or so gallons with your set up.
 
By single element outlet I was referring to my controller build. I have an outlet on my controller for one element which is controlled by the pid and the heat stick is plugged directly into the wall. Yes, they're actually plugged into seperate 20 amp breakers. Kettle is 17" tall and 16" wide. Ambient temp was around 70 degrees. I didn't measure actual voltage, but it would presumably be between 110 and 120 as it should be. I am however boiling more like 7.5 gallons due to having such a wide kettle. Running with propane used to give me insane boil off. I thought the same thing though. I know it's not my controller because I decided to try running both elements directly plugged into the wall and still did not get a boil. I built my system so I can upgrade to 220 in the future when I move out of my apartment into a house.
 
This might sound silly, but did you make sure the breaker wasn't tripped on both circuits? I've plugged into one before only to realize later that it wasn't running because someone has tripped the breaker before I used it and didn't reset it.

Another Q. How long did it take to get to 200+ degrees.
 
This might sound silly, but did you make sure the breaker wasn't tripped on both circuits? I've plugged into one before only to realize later that it wasn't running because someone has tripped the breaker before I used it and didn't reset it.

Another Q. How long did it take to get to 200+ degrees.

I did not check both breakers, but I know it was working because bubbles were forming around both elements. I started at around 120 degrees and if I'm not mistaken, it took around 30-45 min to get to 200 or so. Which is somewhat reasonable. Also not mentioned above, my kettle was also insulated. Sorry, Im remembering more and more as I think about it. I also kept it covered to heat up. It did come to a simmer with the lid on, but immediately went down when I took the lid off.
 
Insulated with lid on? Something is not right. You need to measure the voltage across the element (at the element) when it is plugged in (be careful!). This will tell you for certain how much power the water is getting.
 
Insulated with lid on? Something is not right. You need to measure the voltage across the element (at the element) when it is plugged in (be careful!). This will tell you for certain how much power the water is getting.

An alternative/complementary method is to use a clamp on current meter on one of the conductors. A kill-a-watt meter is another option that will tell you the actual power, current and voltage on each element.

Also, you could check the DC resistance of the elements to check the actual power they can give at 120V.
 
Insulated with lid on? Something is not right. You need to measure the voltage across the element (at the element) when it is plugged in (be careful!). This will tell you for certain how much power the water is getting.

I'll be able to do that for the one in the kettle, but my heat stick is all glued up. Maybe the kettle will be able to give me an idea for both if I plug it into one outlet, check, then plug it in the other outlet I use.
 
You can measure at the input to the heat stick.

But just measuring resistance of the elements (put a multimeter across the plug hot and neutral while it's not plugged in) and voltages at the outlets should be sufficient. Measuring current and voltage is best, as that give you the actual power drawn from the circuit.
 
You can measure at the input to the heat stick.

But just measuring resistance of the elements (put a multimeter across the plug hot and neutral while it's not plugged in) and voltages at the outlets should be sufficient. Measuring current and voltage is best, as that give you the actual power drawn from the circuit.


I suggest he measure the voltage at the element terminals to isolate out the wires and termination points. An ammeter would also be good but impossible to clamp one wire in a jacketed bundle.
 
I suggest he measure the voltage at the element terminals to isolate out the wires and termination points. An ammeter would also be good but impossible to clamp one wire in a jacketed bundle.

Yes. See what you are pushing to your elements. Also curious what components are in your box.
 
Aluminum kettle? 2800w isn't a lot for a kettle that size.

I recall a thread whereby a guy couldn't reach boil in a large aluminum kettle and chased the problem only to realize the kettle was a huge energy suck.

2 120v elements at 2000w each may be the answer.
 
Aluminum kettle? 2800w isn't a lot for a kettle that size.

I recall a thread whereby a guy couldn't reach boil in a large aluminum kettle and chased the problem only to realize the kettle was a huge energy suck.

2 120v elements at 2000w each may be the answer.

I was afraid of that. I thought it would be enough through my weeks of researching, but I didn't take the size into consideration. Although my kettle isn't aluminum, it's still rather large. I may just go back to PM on the stove until my wife and I buy a house. It shouldn't be more than 6 months or so. Then I'll make sure we have 220 for brewing and I'll upgrade my control panel. Most of the components are all rated for 240v anyways. So it won't be too tough to upgrade.
 
A $10,120v 2000w HD element would very likely get you boiling and brewing, clean well between uses.

Or better yet, a 120v 2000w LWD for $30...

Still cheaper than extract :)
 
A $10,120v 2000w HD element would very likely get you boiling and brewing, clean well between uses.

Or better yet, a 120v 2000w LWD for $30...

Still cheaper than extract :)

my HD doesn't carry any 2000w lwd elements otherwise that's what I would have bought. Only high watt. So I went with the 5500 lwd element because I have read countless times where guys have done with l less. I've read several threads where you preached it too. But I guess the large kettle is too much for it. I'm already way over budget and I won't be able to swap out elements in my heat stick. It's permanently mounted. So unless another 500 watts from the element in my kettle will do it then it's gonna take some convincing with the SWMBO to let me make a whole other heat stick plus buy another element for my kettle.

Edit: I went to the LHBS yesterday to pick up stuff for a citrus wheat...wow was extract expensive! It's been so long I forgot about how much it cost. I also just realized you meant high density and not Home Depot. Any issues using the high density element? I've read a lot about it being a no no, but no one talks from experience.
 
my HD doesn't carry any 2000w lwd elements otherwise that's what I would have bought. Only high watt. So I went with the 5500 lwd element because I have read countless times where guys have done with l less. I've read several threads where you preached it too. But I guess the large kettle is too much for it. I'm already way over budget and I won't be able to swap out elements in my heat stick. It's permanently mounted. So unless another 500 watts from the element in my kettle will do it then it's gonna take some convincing with the SWMBO to let me make a whole other heat stick plus buy another element for my kettle.

Edit: I went to the LHBS yesterday to pick up stuff for a citrus wheat...wow was extract expensive! It's been so long I forgot about how much it cost. I also just realized you meant high density and not Home Depot. Any issues using the high density element? I've read a lot about it being a no no, but no one talks from experience.


YeaH, I got a 2kW 120V heater for my HLT, and figured I'd give it a shot in the boil because I wanted to save on propane. TL;DR, I had to dump a 10 gallon batch of imperial red IPA because the element scorched so badly that the whole batch tasted like an ashtray. I no use a 1675W 120V ULWD element - which will simmer 14 gallons, a small dose of propane makes a nice boil.
 
I also just realized you meant high density and not Home Depot. Any issues using the high density element? I've read a lot about it being a no no, but no one talks from experience.

While it is certainly best practice to use ULWD elements, I have used standard 120v HWD elements for 8-10 years and likely over a hundred batches. I managed to badly scorch one batch, however I blame it on the circumstances more than the HWD elements. I scored a 20 gallon kettle and had done one double batch (15 gal) successfully. On my next attempt I brought the wort to boil, then had to run a few errands so I shut off power for an hour while I was away. Upon continuing my session, I believe all the trub settled and proceeded to stick on the elements and burn to hell, batch dumped. Since this was a one time event where my time to boil was increased since the wort was allowed to cool, and then the long heat time to reach boil in the heavy settled trub, I believe I know what may have caused it, I continue to use the HWD elements without issue. I believe the poster above also suffered a similar fate trying to boil 10 -12 gallons with a single 2000w element as the element was on so long to produce boil, trub settled and stuck to the element and scorched...10 - 12 gallons w/ only 2000w is a recipe for trouble. Stirring a few times while you approach boil may be a good idea to suspend the trub proteins, just a guess. I recall an incident whereby the brewer went to boil, but did so at low power for a long period of time with a LWD element and scorched, so the actual heat density was very low, but the trub had time to settle, and the long period of time approaching boil with stagnant trub produced scorching. Most incidents of scorching have an indication of unusual circumstances IMO, but there are so few it is difficult to understand exactly why it occurred.

You are correct, it is posted all over the board not to use HWD elements as they are more likely to scorch, it is certainly best practice to use ULWD elements, but when I asked a prolific poster of this often given advice if he had ever boiled with HWD elements, he had not, but experienced scorching w/ HWD elements in a RIMS tube, and has proceeded to incorrectly IMO extrapolate that experience to all uses of HWD elements numerous times. If you search around, you will find reports of scorching using elements of all densities, i believe even ULWD elements can scorch if the the conditions are most unfavorable. I feel that scorching is produced by several factors in addition to element watt density, the amount of trub allowed to settle, and total wattage to batch size ratio as the wort takes much longer to reach boil in low wattage applications, and once boiling the trub is mixed in the rolling boil and not stagnant at the element. It is also critical to clean your elements after every brew, some reports of scorching are caused by neglected elements allowed to cake up batch after batch, this is likely even more important with HWD elements. Residue is easily removed from the element if done immediately after the boil using a scrubby pad.

A little history, I started brewing w/ electric 10-12 years ago, all this great reference materiel was not available, there was limited information and you kinda figured it out, didn't even know ULWD elements existed....I tried one HWD 2000w element and that was like watching grass grow so I tried 2 @ 2000w and it worked pretty darn well for my 1/4 keg 7.75 gallon batches, so I have stuck with that with minor adjustments, such as using a 15 gallon kettle rather than an 11 to better contain the boil. With the 11, sometimes I would get some minor splashing out of the kettle with the 4000w unregulated, with the 15, the boil is just right. That's another myth, that you must have a controller for electric brewing, while IME you just need close to the proper wattage for your kettle size and batch size and a reasonable boil is produced. The Grainfather system operates on this principle of unregulated boil at max power, as the unit is merely switched to full power to boil, and there sales aren't hurting.

So that's my experience using HWD elements, I think maybe I'll go do some brewing...w/ HWD elements :) cheers
 
I appreciate your advice wilserbrewer. Many thanks. You sound like you've used the high watt density once or twice with very few issues. I may give it a go seein how they're only $10 at HD. That will put me at 3375w total. It'll be worth a shot.

I bought your bundle package with the hoist and everything. Worked beautifully on my first batch. My bag fit perfectly and was a breeze to clean. My mash went quite well on my first brewday. I wish I could say the same about the rest of the day. I couldn't get my wort to a boil so I went to plan B using my propane burner and aluminum pot. It all went down hill from there. Bad brewday. My cheap Amazon pump went out so I couldn't use my new 40 plate chiller. I just need to pony up for a chugged or March pump.
 
@OP, If you live at elevation above sea level water will boil at a temp less than 212. Gainesville, Georgia with a elevation about 1200ft would boil closer to 210 which is not too far off from the 208 you measured. Have you checked your thermometer in a pot of boiling water, what temp does it read?
 
@OP, If you live at elevation above sea level water will boil at a temp less than 212. Gainesville, Georgia with a elevation about 1200ft would boil closer to 210 which is not too far off from the 208 you measured. Have you checked your thermometer in a pot of boiling water, what temp does it read?
And to put it another way is boiling is when you are converting water to steam at a decent rate, not when you hit a specific temperature. Also the probes may be reading lower that the actual temp.

IS your water just slightly simmering, or do you have a reasonable rolling boil even though your only at 208°F?
 
Whatever temp it boils at, at maximum power you want a ripping boil. Then you would dial back for the boil term. That difference is the headroom in your system, which is important because under different conditions (ambient temp, etc.) you want to have the ability to increase power if needed. There is no headroom right now, so he needs to increase the power in or decrease the heat loss out.
 
Exactly! At max power I'm barely getting bubbles coming up from the elements when I should be getting a vigorous boil. The temp is being read by the thermocouple from my pid hard mounted to my kettle. I confirmed it with another digital thermometer as well. So the temp is correct. I'm still thinking wilserbrewer's theory is correct. My kettle a very wide kettle. As mentioned before, it comes to a nice rolling boil until I take the lid off.
 
As mentioned before, it comes to a nice rolling boil until I take the lid off.

Well then just make some beer with the lid partially on, say 2/3 covered and 1/3 open....your boil off will likely still be in an acceptable range. If it makes you feel better, wipe the condensation from the lid a few times so all that terrible DMS is not falling back into your beer....i joke but I've done it.

Perhaps you are also expecting a spectacular rolling boil cauldron like you had with propane, you don't really need that, you just need to boil off a respectable amount. I have a hunch it would produce desirable results.

Run it for an hour and measure your boil off. If its good, make some beer to drink while pondering a better solution to your low powered brewery :)

FWIW, any large commercial brewery kettle I have seen is typically only partially open at the top for venting, and it seems to work fine for them.
 
Well then just make some beer with the lid partially on, say 2/3 covered and 1/3 open....your boil off will likely still be in an acceptable range. If it makes you feel better, wipe the condensation from the lid a few times so all that terrible DMS is not falling back into your beer....i joke but I've done it.

Perhaps you are also expecting a spectacular rolling boil cauldron like you had with propane, you don't really need that, you just need to boil off a respectable amount. I have a hunch it would produce desirable results.

Run it for an hour and measure your boil off. If its good, make some beer to drink while pondering a better solution to your low powered brewery :)

FWIW, any large commercial brewery kettle I have seen is typically only partially open at the top for venting, and it seems to work fine for them.

Thats good to know! It did produce a pretty rocking boil with the lid partially covering it. So I could still dial it back when it does come to a boil. I don't know what I'm going to do about all of that evil dms though. lol. I was not aware of not needing a good rolling boil. I may need to try it again and see what my results are. I'm brewing an PM citrus wheat tomorrow. Maybe I'll get out my system to do a test run while I'm brewing and see what happens. Thanks again for your help!

On a side note, my bag bundle I got from you performed quite well on my first eBIAB batch where everything else in my system failed miserably. I took the hop bag and a cpvc coupling with a coat hook and made a nice hanging hop bag for the boil. I hung my bag from the rafters on my patio with the ratchet pully which worked out great. I let the bag hang to drain and I could use both hands to squeeze which helped a lot. Overall I'm very pleased.
 
All these posts about an underpowered kettle and now your considering turning it down lower....bang head!

lol. Well with the lid on it comes to a nice vigorous boil, but like I said, once you take the lid of it dies down to nothing. So with the lid on I'd be able to dial it back a bit. So yes, I suppose I could bang my head on the wall. On top of that, my wife and I are going to look at a house tomorrow with a very nice sized work shop that has a bathroom, heat and ac, and it also has 220 :p
 
I'm not sure I would ever switch to electric. I like the fact I can get a rolling boil in 15 minutes. The electric systems do look nice but way more than I am willing to spend. I hope you get everything working to your satisfaction.

How's Gainesville doing these days? Worked and lived there in the early 90's.
 
Did you try insulating your kettle? Even a large towel will make a difference.
Yup. I wrapped it with that foil like bubble wrap from HD and secured it with two ratchet straps. Good idea!
I'm not sure I would ever switch to electric. I like the fact I can get a rolling boil in 15 minutes. The electric systems do look nice but way more than I am willing to spend. I hope you get everything working to your satisfaction.

How's Gainesville doing these days? Worked and lived there in the early 90's.

It's blown up!! My dad moved here in 05 when there was nothing here, but Buford is starting to overflow into Gainesville. That's why my wife and I are buyin a house up north.
 
Yup. I wrapped it with that foil like bubble wrap from HD and secured it with two ratchet straps. Good idea!


It's blown up!! My dad moved here in 05 when there was nothing here, but Buford is starting to overflow into Gainesville. That's why my wife and I are buyin a house up north.

My aunt and uncle operate the Buford Corn Maze just down the road from you. Not sure if you've had the pleasure of partaking, but if you get a chance this fall you should swing by and tell them Benson sent you their way.

http://bufordcornmaze.com/
 
My aunt and uncle operate the Buford Corn Maze just down the road from you. Not sure if you've had the pleasure of partaking, but if you get a chance this fall you should swing by and tell them Benson sent you their way.

http://bufordcornmaze.com/

I've never been. We have driven by it several times. We have been to a few others in the area. We'll have to stop by this fall. They're pretty fun!
 
I just finished building a controller per one of PJ's diagrams. I made my control panel with a pid, single element outlet, pump outlet, switches for a pump, element and pid. One element is a 6000w element hard mounted in a 70 quart pot. I made a 5500w heat stick to supplement the single element in the kettle and running them at 120v which per my calculator gives me 2875w. This should get me to a boil no problem. It got up to 208 and wouldn't get higher than that. I plugged both elements in straight to the wall bypassing the controller and it still wouldn't bring it to a boil. I let them sit for almost two hours and it didn't get over 208. Anyone have any ideas why it won't boil?

If your 5500W heating element is rated at 220V then running it at 120V will only give you 1/4 output (1375W) not 2875W.
 

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