1st lager - no signs of fermentation after 24 hours

[Robbienev]

OK, so I'm not worried (yet) but seeing as this is my first foray in to a lager, I thought I'd see what you all say.

All grain brew (Jamil's boho pilsner recipe) 5 gallons of wort, 1.059 OG, pitched 3 vials of White Labs Pilsner yeast at a temp of 49 degrees after oxygenating the wort.

I had to cool overnight in my fermentation chamber before pitching.

I thought I'd have some bubbles by now, but nothing.

Should I just be more patient and RAHAHB?

Cheers all,
Robbie

 

[MaxStout]

Yep, give it another day or two, it should be active by then.

 

[LLBeanJ]

When I ferment with lager yeast, it usually takes about 48 hours before things start happening. I don't use an airlock, so I judge by the formation of the krausen on top and at 24 hours I might start to see a little foam, but it's usually not much. 3 vials with no starter is probably a bit of an underpitch, so that will add to the lag time, but I'm sure in another 24 hours or so you should start to see things heating up.

 

[mtyquinn]

No need to panic yet. Lagers are a different beast, it will come around. Patience.

 

[3toes]

OK, so I'm not worried (yet) but seeing as this is my first foray in to a lager, I thought I'd see what you all say.

All grain brew (Jamil's boho pilsner recipe) 5 gallons of wort, 1.059 OG, pitched 3 vials of White Labs Pilsner yeast at a temp of 49 degrees after oxygenating the wort.

I had to cool overnight in my fermentation chamber before pitching.

I thought I'd have some bubbles by now, but nothing.

Should I just be more patient and RAHAHB?

Cheers all,
Robbie

Fear not, I just went through pretty much the same thing. Did a baltic porter at 1.062 and even with a 2L starter, I had no visible activity until about the 48hr mark. And that was even up at 58ºF.

It may be difficult to wait, but give it 72hrs, and if there's still no visible activity, take a hydrometer reading. Lagers can be a completely different animal and a lot of people have reported not seeing ANY visible signs.

 

[BrewerBrad82]

3 White Labs vials in a 1.059 lager is a pretty small pitch. It will take a while for that to get going with that little yeast in there. According to Jamil's website Mrmalty.com, you should be pitching 6 vials in that beer (assuming the yeast is only one month old). If you can get more yeast in there ASAP, I would certainly do that. Otherwise it may lag for a few days longer before you notice any active fermentation.

 

[JosephN]

Interesting!! I know nothing about fermenting lagers but I've ready that they are slow to start and you need more yeast than with an ale. Sounds like everyone is pointing you in the right direction. My only other thought is, if you did under pitch would this cause the yeast to stress and create undesired flavors?

 

[MikeInMKE]

The first time I made a lager (Maibock), I followed Mr. Malty's recommendation and propagated a whole bunch of 2124. I aerated as I usually did at that time, using a tee in the line from the boil kettle to the fermenter. However, I couldn't chill the wort down to the desired pitching temp of 46, so I put the bucket of wort and the jar of yeast into the fridge set at 46 degrees.

The next day, I decanted the beer off of the yeast starter, peeled the lid off of the bucket, swirled the yeast cake back into suspension, and pitched it into the bucket.

Day one, no bubbles through the air lock.

Day two, no bubbles through the air lock.

Day three, no bubbles through the air lock, and I'm getting worried. I figure the aerating I had done, probably dissipated while the wort was busy chilling down to pitch temp. I lifted the bucket out of the fridge, placed it on the basement floor, and tipped it up on edge so I could aerate it by rocking the **** out of it.

I rocked once, hard, and before i could rock it again, the airlock shot out, followed by a stream of wort spraying all over the basement wall.

The moral of the story is, the colder the wort, the more gas that can be dissolved in it before the wort becomes so saturated with gas that it comes out of solution as bubbles through the airlock. Furthermore, the colder the wort, the slower the yeast will work.

As Charlie Papazian once said, "Relax Don't Worry, Have a Home Brew."

Also, I now use an oxygen tank to aerate, which I can easily do right before I pitch the yeast.

 

[JosephN]

Also, I now use an oxygen tank to aerate, which I can easily do right before I pitch the yeast.

Could you not just use a sanitized air stone with a filter and air pump?

 

[Yooper]

Could you not just use a sanitized air stone with a filter and air pump?

You can, but it takes at least 30 minutes and the max you can get in there for oxygen is about 8 ppm using room air. Using 100% 02 for seconds will surpass that, and get something like 12(?) ppm in there.

 

[Schmoltsbeer]

My lagers take up to 3 days before krausen appears. However, I ferment in a glass carboy and I can watch the layer of yeast multiply if I check. So long as I can see the lighter layer of yeast sediment appearing to grow over the trub I never worry about krausen.

 

[Robbienev]

Hey all, thanks for all the comments.

Bit of an update. So after four days and no activity I took a gravity reading and it was still at 1.059. At this point I decided to rack off and re pitch, this time with 4 vials of white labs Pilsner yeast (had a use by of November). I am now 48 hours in and still no activity. Hoping this next 24 hours turns things around but if anyone has any suggestions of other things to try then I'm all ears.

Cheers,
Robbie

 

[g-star]

You need to make stir plate starters. My typical procedure is 2 fresh tubes into a 4L starter, spin for 48hrs, crash, decant, and pitch the slurry straight from the refrigerator into wort that is about 45F. Using this approach, I get activity in 8hrs and full roaring krausen by 24hrs.

Other comments in this thread make it seem like waiting 48-72hrs for activity is OK b/c its a lager. It's not OK, those people are under-pitching by a lot, and the consequences are stressed yeast and off-flavors. You're wasting money just buying more and more tubes of yeast. Starters ensure yeast viability and create the freshest, most healthy cells you can pitch.

 

[solbes]

Should start up soon. Not sure you needed to rack off the first primary, but the counts should be there.

Agree with g-star. You can make a good lager by under pitching. But by pitching proper yeast counts, you will almost assuredly make a good lager.

I like to make lagers in series. First one gets a huge starter. Next lager or two get washed yeast from the already large supply.

 

[Gavin C]

7 vials of yeast, ~$50

Lagers need a lot of yeast but that is easily solved more cost effectively

1 vial of yeast, an appropriately sized starter in a big flask and a stirplate will get you to an effective pitch rate.


My last lager took about 30 hours to show a krausen. 8 days later at 50F it's about 1 plato from terminal gravity. Things happen slow with lagers compared to ales.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Other comments in this thread make it seem like waiting 48-72hrs for activity is OK b/c its a lager. It's not OK, those people are under-pitching by a lot, and the consequences are stressed yeast and off-flavors.

I agree that 72 hours is not normal, but 48 is not out of the ordinary. I've brewed quite a few lagers over the past few years and my experience has been pretty consistent. I pitch the standard lager rate of 1.5 million cells per ml wort per °P propagated from a 3-step stir plate starter. At 24 hours I usually have some yeast bubbles showing on the surface of the wort, but no full krausen layer until around 36-48 hours. I also oxygenate with pure O2 for 60 seconds upon pitching.

With that said, I believe the yeast strain will play a part as to how long it takes the party to get rippin'. I only use WLP838 for my lagers, so that is what my observations are based on.

 

[Robbienev]

I would have made a starter but it was rather a last minute brew day so time didn't allow for one, and then the re pitch was a knee jerk reaction to no fermentation - certainly will go this route next time though.

I did oxygenate with pure O2.

The wort is still showing no signs of fermentation so I'm at a bit of a loss at this point. I'll give it another day and then take a gravity reading to see if it's still at 1.059.

 

[ferm.adventures]

You can, but it takes at least 30 minutes and the max you can get in there for oxygen is about 8 ppm using room air. Using 100% 02 for seconds will surpass that, and get something like 12(?) ppm in there.

Yeah, I bought and aquarium pump aeration rig. What a waste of time. Love the pure O2 from the red Hardware store tanks. Oxygenated wort in less than a minute.

 

[Robbienev]

I woke up this morning to the humble beginnings of krausen forming, and a distinctly sulphury smell around the airlock - I remain hopeful

 

[g-star]

I agree that 72 hours is not normal, but 48 is not out of the ordinary. I've brewed quite a few lagers over the past few years and my experience has been pretty consistent. I pitch the standard lager rate of 1.5 million cells per ml wort per °P propagated from a 3-step stir plate starter. At 24 hours I usually have some yeast bubbles showing on the surface of the wort, but no full krausen layer until around 36-48 hours. I also oxygenate with pure O2 for 60 seconds upon pitching.

With that said, I believe the yeast strain will play a part as to how long it takes the party to get rippin'. I only use WLP838 for my lagers, so that is what my observations are based on.

I use mainly 830, 833, and 838. They all behave similarly, and it is never more than 12hrs before I see activity and 24hrs for a full krausen. I shoot for a pitch rate of 2M cells/ml/*Plato with my starters and oxygenate for 90sec at 2L/min before pitching at ~ 45F.

 

[3toes]

I use mainly 830, 833, and 838. They all behave similarly, and it is never more than 12hrs before I see activity and 24hrs for a full krausen. I shoot for a pitch rate of 2M cells/ml/*Plato with my starters and oxygenate for 90sec at 2L/min before pitching at ~ 45F.

Sorry for a quick derail, but how low have you taken 833 before? Have you held it at 45ºF? Just picked it up for a festbier I'm trying to turn around pretty quick, and since my chamber has to pull dual duties as a keezer as well, I need to bring my festbier down as close to 40 as possible while lagering a baltic porter.

 

[g-star]

Sorry for a quick derail, but how low have you taken 833 before? Have you held it at 45ºF? Just picked it up for a festbier I'm trying to turn around pretty quick, and since my chamber has to pull dual duties as a keezer as well, I need to bring my festbier down as close to 40 as possible while lagering a baltic porter.

I pitch at 45F, then bring it up to 50F over about 24-36hrs. I hold at 50F until I reach about 60% attenuation (~ 4 days for a 1.050ish beer), then raise 5F every 12hrs until it gets to 65F and hold there until fermentation is complete.

 

[Robbienev]

Morning All,

Thought I'd give an update on my pils adventure. 12 days after the second pitch started to come alive and my Gravity has gone from 1.059 to 1.030. I figure another 8 to 10 points and I'll warm up to 55 to finish her off before lagering.

One quick question to you all. How do you lager, with or without CO2. I've seen plenty of posts and books that flip flop between the two, so I thought I'd bring it up here.

Cheers,
Robbie

 

[kombat]

How do you lager, with or without CO2.

I "lager" in kegs, so I guess that'd be "with" CO2. Once the beer's done fermenting, I rack it to a keg, purge with CO2, and put it in the fridge on 14 psi of CO2 to start carbonating. If I have enough other beers on the go that I can leave that one untouched for a couple of weeks, presto! I've lagered it.

Lager just means "to store cold." There's nothing magical about it, the yeast aren't doing anything, it's just giving the beer time to clear up a little bit.

 

[Robbienev]

Hey kombat,

I'll be racking to a keg as well. With the Pilsner I'm imagining that the beer will be in there for at least a month before being ready. I guess it's no biggy to leave it on CO2 for the whole time?

 

[m00ps]

Why would you want to take it off the CO2? That would just make for additional time to carb up months later...

 

[Robbienev]

Not sure if there is a why (or why not) so I figured I'd ask here

 

[kombat]

Nope, leave it on the CO2 the whole time. Once it reaches equilibrium, it won't continue to carbonate, it will simply be "fully carbed." It will lager at that temperature/carbonation for as long as you leave it, until you're ready to drink it.