Imperial Stout 1848 Barclay Perkins Imperial Brown Stout 1st ever Imperial Stout

[Boozy Mcboozerson]

Recipe Type

All Grain

Yeast

Wyeast 1099 Whitbread Yeast 2 packs

Yeast Starter

2.5 Liter

Batch Size (Gallons)

5.5

Original Gravity

1.097

Final Gravity

1.024

Boiling Time (Minutes)

120

Color

SRM 44

This brew is from Ron Pattinsons Homebrewers Guide to Vintage Beer, which focuses on British brewing recipes from the last 200 years. I am curious if anyone else have brewed any of these historic beers and if they have any advice?

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homeb...-barclay-perkins-ibst-1st-ever-imperial-stout

I emailed Ron Pattinson and he responded, this is one of the oldest known recipes for the Barclay Perkins Imperial IBSt which was originally sent to Catherine the Great in 1781. Before this version which uses 6 lbs of brown malt, brown malt was diastatic and could convert itself without added base malt so the recipes had brown but no base malt. The only available versions of brown malt are no longer diastatic, and have been that way for close to 200 years. So given today's malt this is one of the first versions us modern homebrewers can brew.

I made a mistake on my efficiency in Brewers Friend I had it set too high for such a big stout, I pulled closer to 65% efficiency, so I added the sugar to compensate. The Lyles Golden Syrup is a very traditional British product very similar to the light colored invert syrups popular in British brewing the early 1900's.

Next I plan to brew Ron Pattinsons recipe for the 1915 Courage Imperial Stout.

Grain Bill
15 lb Crisp - Finest Maris Otter 38 3 58%
6 lb United Kingdom - Brown 32 65 23.2%
2.75 lb United Kingdom - Amber 32 27 10.6%
0.75 lb United Kingdom - Black Patent 27 525 2.9%
0.75 lb Brown Sugar 45 15 2.9%
0.6 lb Lyles Golden Syrup - Clear (0L) 32 0 2.3%

Hops
Amount Variety Type Use Time
5 oz East Kent Goldings Pellet Boil 90 min
5 oz East Kent Goldings Pellet Boil 60 min
6 oz East Kent Goldings Pellet Boil 15 min

Fermentables
Amount Fermentable PPG °L Bill %
15 lb Crisp - Finest Maris Otter 38 3 58%
6 lb United Kingdom - Brown 32 65 23.2%
2.75 lb United Kingdom - Amber 32 27 10.6%
0.75 lb United Kingdom - Black Patent 27 525 2.9%
0.75 lb Brown Sugar 45 15 2.9%
0.6 lb Candi Syrup - Belgian Candi Syrup - Clear (0L) 32 0 2.3%
25.85 lb Total

Hops
Amount Variety Type AA Use Time IBU
5 oz East Kent Goldings Pellet 5 Boil 90 min 65.5
5 oz East Kent Goldings Pellet 5 Boil 60 min 61.23
6 oz East Kent Goldings Pellet 5 Boil 15 min 36.46

Hops Summary
Amount Variety Type AA
16 oz East Kent Goldings Pellet 5
16 oz Total

Mash Guidelines
Amount Description Type Temp Time
8.5 gal
Infusion 151 °F 60 min
6 gal
Sparge 170 °F 30 min
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.2 qt/lb

Other Ingredients
Amount Name Type Use Time
8.5 g Calcium Chloride Water Agt Mash 1 hr.
3 g Gypsum Water Agt Mash 1 hr.
1.5 g Baking Soda Water Agt Mash 1 hr.

Yeast
Wyeast - British Ale 1098
Amount:
2
Attenuation (custom):
71%
Fermentation Temp:
68 °F

Tasting:
This beer is still fermenting, but I would describe early tastes as different from any imperial stout I have ever tasted, and I consider myself a stout connoisseur. The brown malt is really roasty in an almost a smokey way. While the hops, almost a pound of East Kent Goldings, combine with the bitter acridness of black patent malt and lend a sharp supporting note to a smooth syrupy body.

 

[kevin58]

I brew Ron's recipes all the time. Most turn out very well. Others are basically nothing more than a SMaSH recipe and as such are on the bland side. For that reason I tend to look to the ones like this with a bit more complexity in the bill.

I'm not sure where you got the sugars from though. I'm looking at the book and the recipe doesn't have any of those. If I were going to add any kind of sugar like that I would add invert... probably #3 or even #4. With this recipe however I would brew it as is

Since Ron doesn't provide efficiency numbers you will need to use your own, known efficiency and adjust the grain bill to reach the OG. Using Beersmith and my known efficiency I had to reduce the grain bill slightly to reach 1.101 OG as listed in the recipe.

This one has definitely been on my radar to reproduce but right now I'm playing with several of Ron's Porter recipes. The latest is in this forum in the Specialty, Fruit, Historical, Other Homebrew Recipes section. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/1880-whitbread-porter.666707/

Let us know how it turns out. Maybe brew it again without those sugars and compare the two.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Yeast
Wyeast - British Ale 1098
Amount:
2

If you're buying two packs of yeast then I'd mix them - one of 1098 and one of 1099 would be an obvious blend.

 

[kevin58]

If you're buying two packs of yeast then I'd mix them - one of 1098 and one of 1099 would be an obvious blend.

In his book, Ron Pattinson actually listed both of those in the recipe. It does take two packs and a 2.5 liter starter to get the needed cell count.

 

[Boozy Mcboozerson]

In his book, Ron Pattinson actually listed both of those in the recipe. It does take two packs and a 2.5 liter starter to get the needed cell count.

If you're buying two packs of yeast then I'd mix them - one of 1098 and one of 1099 would be an obvious blend.

Good advice! this is my first beer from Rons book and I wanted to make sure I didnt have any fermentation problems. I noticed that he recommends the wyeast 1098 for his bigger stouts. Flavor wise Whitbread sonds more interesting

 

[Boozy Mcboozerson]

Either of you guys try that Wyeast 1469 West Yorkshire, the Timmy Thomas strain? Ron Pattinson recommends this for his Courage stouts

 

[kevin58]

Either of you guys try that Wyeast 1469 West Yorkshire, the Timmy Thomas strain? Ron Pattinson recommends this for his Courage stouts

I have not. I have substituted Imperial Pub A09 with good results however. I don't think you need to worry about fermentation problems using modern yeasts. If you look at the attenuation figures of these 19th century beers they are all low compared to today. Just make sure you are pitching enough healthy yeast and you'll do well.

 

[cyberbackpacker]

I use 1469 all the time-- it is great. And a true top cropper-- about 18 hours after pitching there is a full head of krausen for me. I am able to skim off the gunk, and collect plenty of clean slurry for a future batch.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Working on this. One, how did it turn out?

And secondly, I'd think mash temp should be held at 150-151 over 90 minutes - there will already be low attenuation, I suspect. Am I misreading his book, indicating three steps at 160, 164 and 170, respectively?

 

[DBhomebrew]

Working on this. One, how did it turn out?

And secondly, I'd think mash temp should be held at 150-151 over 90 minutes - there will already be low attenuation, I suspect. Am I misreading his book, indicating three steps at 160, 164 and 170, respectively?

I believe he has a post on the blog explaining that those temps are infusion water temps, not the target at each infusion. There's a ton of weird mashing schemes that I mostly gloss over in favor of a single infusion. Multiple infusion mashes, multiple mashes, etc.

Besides, unless you're using 1840's malt (and brett) there's little reason to pay close attention to the brewery's mashing scheme.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I believe he has a post on the blog explaining that those temps are infusion water temps, not the target at each infusion. There's a ton of weird mashing schemes that I mostly gloss over in favor of a single infusion. Multiple infusion mashes, multiple mashes, etc.

Thanks, yes, I came across that, but still a bit confused - he indicates the mashing temps are the actual temps, while the sparge temps are the strike temps. Secondly, if you look at his book, the first 4 stout recipes have a single mash (not the "vintage" mashing scheme, but his accommodation to modern, single mash infusion) in the 160's, then his Guinness Extra is 156, his 1887 Barclay is 145, his 1892 is 152, his 1899 Barclay is 148, etc. In other words, if he's using a consistent scheme for his single mash infusions, the first 4 recipes with mashing temp of 160's seems odd to me, and I don't have any explanation. Do you see what I mean?

Besides, unless you're using 1840's malt (and brett) there's little reason to pay close attention to the brewery's mashing scheme.

Good point. Seems to me holding 150F over 90 minutes is a reasonable target. Thoughts?

 

[DBhomebrew]

On my next imperial stout, a re-brew of a 1914 Courage, it'll be 152°F for 60m. I expect a very long lauter which extends the mash for a really long time. Last time I brewed the beer, it finished at 1030. Plenty of stuff for brett to work on. It's very good at 1030, but definitely a dessert wine kind of thing.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

On my next imperial stout, a re-brew of a 1914 Courage, it'll be 152°F for 60m. I expect a very long lauter which extends the mash for a really long time. Last time I brewed the beer, it finished at 1030. Plenty of stuff for brett to work on. It's very good at 1030, but definitely a dessert wine kind of thing.

Good point as well, with no mashout and the long lauter, hadn't thought of that, thanks. Though as is usual my brain and memory is dodgy and I'd forgotten a very recent exchange....see this. He actually did mash at 160, for good result. Gives me a hmm?, but I see your reasoning and it makes great sense. Maybe in that case 150 might be a tad low, I'm thinking.

 

[DBhomebrew]

I don't have a sweet tooth, so I'm definitely biased in that direction. With a beer starting out around 1100, I'm never worried about over-attenuation.

If I wasn't planning to use brett, my mash would be in the 140s.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I don't have a sweet tooth, so I'm definitely biased in that direction. With a beer starting out around 1100, I'm never worried about over-attenuation.

If I wasn't planning to use brett, my mash would be in the 140s.

Another great point. Thanks for the thoughts.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I don't have a sweet tooth, so I'm definitely biased in that direction. With a beer starting out around 1100, I'm never worried about over-attenuation.

If I wasn't planning to use brett, my mash would be in the 140s.

While here, what base malt did you use? I'm thinking GP only because we carry it at the store where I work, and to be honest not to keen on ordering premium MO and using it in so massive a dark ale. We do carry Munton's MO, however. The only issue with the GP is that I find it a tad more straightforward sweeter, v. the nuttier, more biscuity quality of the MO. And my preference would be for the latter qualities, esp. for something this strength (in line with your comments on your sweet tooth, I'm the same).

 

[DBhomebrew]

I wouldn't sweat it. I used Crisp No 19 MO because I had it. I don't keep MO anymore. Simpson's GP, Best Pale Ale if I still had either. These days I keep Fawcett's Spring Pale and Baird's Vienna for my base malts. I'll probably mix the two.

 

[patto1ro]

Thanks, yes, I came across that, but still a bit confused - he indicates the mashing temps are the actual temps, while the sparge temps are the strike temps. Secondly, if you look at his book, the first 4 stout recipes have a single mash (not the "vintage" mashing scheme, but his accommodation to modern, single mash infusion) in the 160's, then his Guinness Extra is 156, his 1887 Barclay is 145, his 1892 is 152, his 1899 Barclay is 148, etc. In other words, if he's using a consistent scheme for his single mash infusions, the first 4 recipes with mashing temp of 160's seems odd to me, and I don't have any explanation. Do you see what I mean?



Good point. Seems to me holding 150F over 90 minutes is a reasonable target. Thoughts?

It's the other way around. The mashing temperatures are the initial mash heat, the sparge temperatures are the strike heat.

 

[Miraculix]

There is a malt out there which should be fairly close to the old days brown malt. It is called imperial malt and it is self converting and brown. On it's own, it makes a marvelous brown beer without any of the harshness associated with modern brown or amber malt. It's a great malt for anything dark, lots of character, zero harshness.

Speaking of which, I think you might have gone too high with your amber and brown malt content. I find brown malt to be pretty harsh, almost acrid. This fades over time but it really needs this time to be drinkable, so give it a year at least I would say.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

It's the other way around. The mashing temperatures are the initial mash heat, the sparge temperatures are the strike heat.

? Yes, I thought the same...

he indicates the mashing temps are the actual temps, while the sparge temps are the strike temps.

 

[tracer bullet]

There is a malt out there which should be fairly close to the old days brown malt. It is called imperial malt and it is self converting and brown. On it's own, it makes a marvelous brown beer without any of the harshness associated with modern brown or amber malt. It's a great malt for anything dark, lots of character, zero harshness.

This stuff?: Imperial Malt - Simpsons Malt

I'm interested to try it.

Has anyone reading this made the recipe on the 1st post? If so is there a current beer available for purchase that it compares to?

 

[Miraculix]

This stuff?: Imperial Malt - Simpsons Malt

I'm interested to try it.

Has anyone reading this made the recipe on the 1st post? If so is there a current beer available for purchase that it compares to?

Yes that one. Imo you can use it at much higher rates as the homepage suggests. 100% is fine (assumed that it self converts) if you want a brown and malt forward ale.

 

[kevin58]

There is a malt out there which should be fairly close to the old days brown malt. It is called imperial malt and it is self converting and brown. On it's own, it makes a marvelous brown beer without any of the harshness associated with modern brown or amber malt. It's a great malt for anything dark, lots of character, zero harshness.

Speaking of which, I think you might have gone too high with your amber and brown malt content. I find brown malt to be pretty harsh, almost acrid. This fades over time but it really needs this time to be drinkable, so give it a year at least I would say.

Thank you, thank you for that information!