10 Minute Mash? Mind Blown...

[Chris7687]

I'm with ya Kevreh. I havea a barley mill and have it set pretty darn tight and still having problems getting even 60%. I consistently hit 80% when I was using my LHBS' grain mill, but since have moved and do not have a LHBS worth going to.

I do have a feeling it had some to do with the water too. The pH, alkalinity, something... We'll see. I picked up some iodine and pH strips to test with this weekend.

I am also having problems holding mash temp with my gas BIAB setup. Need to close on the house before I take the time to wire up the electric system, the good ole' switch and forget!

 

[pricelessbrewing]

I'm with ya Kevreh. I havea a barley mill and have it set pretty darn tight and still having problems getting even 60%. I consistently hit 80% when I was using my LHBS' grain mill, but since have moved and do not have a LHBS worth going to.

I do have a feeling it had some to do with the water too. The pH, alkalinity, something... We'll see. I picked up some iodine and pH strips to test with this weekend.

I am also having problems holding mash temp with my gas BIAB setup. Need to close on the house before I take the time to wire up the electric system, the good ole' switch and forget!

See if you can at least get a city water report, should get you in the right direction at least. Could be PH related, or sodium/calcium. Not sure how much salt ends up in the florida municipal water but I'd imagine it's at least measurable.

Have you used feeler gauges to check your mill gap? Check an auto shop for some, should only be a couple of bucks.

For mash temp stability, I just wrap it in a blanket and a sleeping bag and usually only lose 1-2 degrees over an hour in MI. FL should be better with the ambient temps.

 

[Magnus314]

I just don't get how anyone can get 93% efficiency with a quick sparge and BIAB. Best I got with BIAB was around 75%. Wonder whats different, technique? Water? Grains?

Because I'm on a well and all the house water is softened, I use either rainwater or R/O + brewing salts.

When I use the local homebrew shop's grind I get 72-ish percent efficiency.

With my Victoria mill (Corona knock-off) tightened down, and spaced with only one washer, I get 84-88% with a single pass crush.

That last batch was the first time I ever did that short of a short mash time. Prior M/O it was 30 min. mashes and no mash out.

I really only did the mash out b/c my psyche can't handle the realization of just how bad my efficiency used to be and how long I've wasted with marathon mash times over the last 8+ years...

Next time I'm going to try 20 min mash and no mash out, and if I need it on bigger beers, a pour-over sparge.

Pushing it further than that doesn't really matter.

It's almost to the point where the mash doesn't take any time because I still have to weigh out the hops and put away the mill and clean up and everything and that takes about 20 minutes or so at a leisurely pace anyway.

 

[JohnSand]

And you really don't have to worry about temperature loss.

 

[KPSquared]

OK, I'm for sure going to try this. Does anyone actually have a mill gap written down? I'd rather know numbers than just guess what "tight" is...

 

[TexasWine]

OK, I'm for sure going to try this. Does anyone actually have a mill gap written down? I'd rather know numbers than just guess what "tight" is...

I would say 0.010 is tight. And I think others would agree. Last time I double milled. First pass was at 0.025, second at 0.010.

 

[doug293cz]

OK, I'm for sure going to try this. Does anyone actually have a mill gap written down? I'd rather know numbers than just guess what "tight" is...

I've got mine set at 0.016" and can get my grain thru it in one pass. My battery operated drill (a beefy model from HF) struggles a bit to get the rollers turning, but once underway handles it pretty well.

Brew on

 

[Chris7687]

Hey guys, just wanted to report back after my weekend brew session. Efficiency got better, finally!

Did a 0.010 inch mill. Make sure to lightly (VERY LIGHTLY) moisten your grains prior to milling, otherwise your mill will have trouble working.

Was busy with a few things around my house, so I overshot the mash temp and had to wait a while for it to cool back down before doughing in. Mashed for about 20 minutes before the iodine additions stopped making the wort turn blue/black. I did the 60 minute mash just to be safe though. I ended up with an 80% efficiency, first efficiency of 75%+ in 6 months!

I have a small 2.5g IPA I am going to brew this week which I will have more time to pay attention to and will try to go for the 20 min mash, then boil.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Hey guys, just wanted to report back after my weekend brew session. Efficiency got better, finally!

Did a 0.010 inch mill. Make sure to lightly (VERY LIGHTLY) moisten your grains prior to milling, otherwise your mill will have trouble working.

Was busy with a few things around my house, so I overshot the mash temp and had to wait a while for it to cool back down before doughing in. Mashed for about 20 minutes before the iodine additions stopped making the wort turn blue/black. I did the 60 minute mash just to be safe though. I ended up with an 80% efficiency, first efficiency of 75%+ in 6 months!

I have a small 2.5g IPA I am going to brew this week which I will have more time to pay attention to and will try to go for the 20 min mash, then boil.

Congrats! The key is definitely the crush dial the mash time back slowly if you're worried aboutb it. 60,45,35,30,25,20. Till you're happy with it

 

[Weezy]

Glad you're nailing it down.

I just wanted to point out that repeatability is always the goal. Real high efficiencies doesn't save much cash and can lead to more variation brew to brew if you're targeting 80%+ with your recipes.

 

[KPSquared]

I hope no one is doing this for the sake of high efficiency... That's a pointless goal.

I'm in for saving time. If you can get the EXACT same results and save 40 min to an hour on a brew day, then why wouldn't you? I have so much going on in life that I already don't get to brew as much as I'd like to... Anything to make it happen a little faster is gold.

 

[Magnus314]

I hope no one is doing this for the sake of high efficiency... That's a pointless goal.

I hear this.

And I agree that it's pointless if it takes away from the quality of the brew. Definitely true that adding a bit more grain is cheap and easy.

But LOW efficiency is not a guarantee of anything, either.

I use to get 68-72% ish efficiency with a store grind and 1 or 2 sparges in a cooler.

When I got 84+% for the first time from a fine crush and a full volume BIAB, I thought it was the "Holy Grail" of brewing. Then it finished around 1.003 or so and I knew there was more to it.

That's why I went from the standard "60 min.+ sparge" times (60-90 min. total) down to 20-30 min.+ mash out when I grind my own (fine) and use a lot of water.

At this point I get 85+ish % efficiency with a 30 min. mash and good, -80%-ish - attenuation. I'm now testing shorter mash times than that, as I reported.

So I agree with NOT seeking efficiency for it's own sake to the detriment of quality.

But I hate it when people insinuate that HIGH efficiency is a trade off. It's not. ANY efficiency has "right" answer for you, and you need to know what it is no matter what efficiency you get.

 

[KPSquared]

Great post! I agree. People rarely consider the changes or consequences that come from the efficiency hunt...

 

[TexasWine]

Just as a quick follow up on my last brew day. I posted the results in some other thread but don't think I mentioned it here.

Zombie Dust clone, 30 minute mash @ 152F, 30 minute boil, no chill

Expected OG 1.066
Actual OG 1.069
Expected FG 1.021
Actual FG 1.012
78% efficiency
82% attenuation

First taste was tonight. Incredible....

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Just as a quick follow up on my last brew day. I posted the results in some other thread but don't think I mentioned it here.

Zombie Dust clone, 30 minute mash @ 152F, 30 minute boil, no chill

Expected OG 1.066
Actual OG 1.069
Expected FG 1.021
Actual FG 1.012
78% efficiency
82% attenuation

First taste was tonight. Incredible....

Why was your actual fg so much lower than expected? Or was the 1.021 a typo?

 

[TexasWine]

Not a typo, and not sure why my FG was so low. Mash temp held perfectly because I mashed in my oven, so that's not the issue. I've read that other folks that do BIAB also tend to get lower FGs, but I haven't seen an explanation as to why.

I used Wyeast London ESB Ale 1968. Predicted attenuation was around 70%.

 

[RM-MN]

Here's results from a new experiment. I bought a refractometer so I could grab samples on the fly without waiting 10 minutes for them to cool. Mash temperature for this batch was 154F. which seemed like a good temperature for a sweet stout and it's in the range where conversion should happen rapidly. I did not do an iodine test during this mash, I forgot about that until just now.

Time Gravity
5 minutes 1.015
10 minutes 1.017
stirred mash
11 minutes 1.026
stirred mash
15 minutes 1.033
stirred mash
20 minutes 1.040
stirred mash
25 minutes 1.047
stirred mash
30 minutes 1.051
stirred mash
35 minutes 1.048
stirred mash
40 minutes 1.051

Looking through the numbers, it appears that the 30 minute sample was an error and that there was some but minimal increase between 25 and 40 minutes. This needs to be run again to see if the results are consistent but for a preliminary result, 20 to 25 minutes is the sweet spot. Longer is better but not by much. Now for the fermentability, which will have to wait for this batch.

A previous batch of blonde ale using Danstar Windsor yeast had an OG (hydrometer) of 1.040 and at 2 weeks it has come down to 1.008, and 80% attenuation for a yeast that should attenuate 62 to 68%. This batch was mashed at 156F for 20 minutes and hot water was used for sparging to get my volume because the pot I used was too small to go full volume.

 

[Weezy]

Thanks for sharing your data. note though that this subject is completely depend on how coarsely or finely the grain was crushed. If the malt is uncrushed, you may never get full conversion. If you grind to flour, it'v be converted by the time you're done stirring after dough-in.

 

[ayrerperformance]

Great info. Following.

Edit: has anyone done a short mash with a large grain bill? Does it matter?

 

[TexasWine]

Great info. Following.

Edit: has anyone done a short mash with a large grain bill? Does it matter?

My last batch was 15 lbs for a 5 gallon batch. I'd consider that to be larger than average. 30 minute mash and 88% efficiency.

 

[pmonti80]

Very interesting post. I was already trying 45min mash but I am still learning and have very little repeatability for the moment. In my next all grain or partial mash I will try fine crushing in my new corona mill, blanket around the pot and a 30 minute mash.

Off Topic: What about shorter boils? Are you using them or only shorter mash?

 

[TexasWine]

Very interesting post. I was already trying 45min mash but I am still learning and have very little repeatability for the moment. In my next all grain or partial mash I will try fine crushing in my new corona mill, blanket around the pot and a 30 minute mash.

Off Topic: What about shorter boils? Are you using them or only shorter mash?

I've done shorter boils (30 min) on my last two batches with no ill effects. I think shortening the boil is a judgement call. If you think you can do it and still get a hop profile you're happy with, then go for it. Just make sure to boil long and hard enough to drive off the DMS.

 

[ayrerperformance]

How does this information transfer to the thread about controlling attenuation via mash times? According to that thread, shorter mashes dry out your beer. Does that only apply to traditional 3v systems? Are you getting high attenuation and drier finishes?

 

[doug293cz]

How does this information transfer to the thread about controlling attenuation via mash times? According to that thread, shorter mashes dry out your beer. Does that only apply to traditional 3v systems? Are you getting high attenuation and drier finishes?

You sure it's not longer mash times favor dryness? More enzyme action means more mono and di-saccharides, and fewer dextrines, which lead to a more fermentable wort.

Fermentability is all about the sugar profile of the wort (mono and di-saccharides vs. poly saccharides/dextrines.). There are a lot of variables and processes going on in a mash. A finer crush speeds up several of the processes, so you can get similar sugar profiles with shorter mash times than with coarser crushes.

Brew on

 

[ayrerperformance]

You sure it's not longer mash times favor dryness? More enzyme action means more mono and di-saccharides, and fewer dextrines, which lead to a more fermentable wort.

Fermentability is all about the sugar profile of the wort (mono and di-saccharides vs. poly saccharides/dextrines.). There are a lot of variables and processes going on in a mash. A finer crush speeds up several of the processes, so you can get similar sugar profiles with shorter mash times than with coarser crushes.

Brew on

Yes sorry, I had that backwards. Been a long day.

 

[Bassman2003]

Pretty cool info. Just for a talking point, would you do the shorter mash for all styles? Or do you think the shorter mash would be better in some styles rather than others?

It would seem a U.K. bitter or an APA would be prime candidates for this approach where a German Pils might not be as good? The continental Euro breweries seem to do much longer mashes than Brittish or US brewers. The Germans have picked every inch apart of the brewing process and they tend to step mash, some long, some short. The Belgians often step mash with long mash times.

So what is being lost or gained, if anything between a 30min mash and a 2 hour and 30min mash?

This is what I want to know definitively before I make the choice either way.

 

[BadWolfBrewing]

On my next brew, I'm just going to sample the mash every 20 minutes for 2 hours. I use HERMS, so temps will be stable. I'll save them all in tasting glasses and do a tasting at the end of the mash (and check gravity and starch too I guess). I'd check PH but I don't have the meter. If there's anything interesting I'll report it here.

 

[Weezy]

Pretty cool info. Just for a talking point, would you do the shorter mash for all styles? Or do you think the shorter mash would be better in some styles rather than others?

It would seem a U.K. bitter or an APA would be prime candidates for this approach where a German Pils might not be as good? The continental Euro breweries seem to do much longer mashes than Brittish or US brewers. The Germans have picked every inch apart of the brewing process and they tend to step mash, some long, some short. The Belgians often step mash with long mash times.

So what is being lost or gained, if anything between a 30min mash and a 2 hour and 30min mash?

This is what I want to know definitively before I make the choice either way.

You have to ask *why* they do it the way they do. A lot of the traditions are simply that, traditions. Step mashed and long mashes are mostly to deal with under modified malts, which was common in history but not so how. The Germans hacked together acid malt because the German purity laws wouldn't let them use any chemicals to adjust pH. Is it the best way to adjust mash pH? No.
No doubt these extended schemes are doing something to yield different and varied flavor effect and body effects, but can that same effect be made by adding a pinch of melanoidin malt?

You should just try it for yourself to see if matters. Get a recipe that you think an extended or step mash matter and do it. Then do it again with a short, single infusion mash. Then let your taste buds tell you if it matters.

 

[Bassman2003]

Good points. This would be a great experiment for Basic Brewing or anybody else as a side by side would be needed to really know. Sometimes I wonder if outside of a controlled environment like a mega brewery, that some processes or theory might not transferrable. Which kind of means homebrewing sort of has its own parameters like no-chill or BIAB where the process is counter to the brewing industry.

Great to discuss and move forward as a community.

 

[Gavin C]

My last batch was 15 lbs for a 5 gallon batch. I'd consider that to be larger than average. 30 minute mash and 88% efficiency.

Is that your mash efficiency or brewhouse? Just so I can compare to my own figures.

Thanks for all the great info and data. Your posts are always interesting