10 Minute Mash? Mind Blown...

[epratt]

Here is a homebrewer's results from an experiment similar to the one being discussed (he does a 30 min vs 60 min mash, not 10 unfortunately.)

Does Mash Length Matter?

His results, while not definitive, conclude that he see's little to no difference.

 

[sikkingj]

So this means if I have boinked my mash temperatures in the first 5 or 10 minutes, I've screwed the pooch and no amount of ice and stirring will change it? Continuing this thought any temperatures fluctuations after the first 15 would have little or no impact on the mash.

This would gel with some of my experience with low attenuating batches, but I'm curious what others have experienced...

Maybe I don't need to insulate my mash tun now.


Sent from the window of an airplane...

 

[kaconga]

Here is a homebrewer's results from an experiment similar to the one being discussed (he does a 30 min vs 60 min mash, not 10 unfortunately.)

Does Mash Length Matter?

His results, while not definitive, conclude that he see's little to no difference.

Thanks, this illustrates the need for a "control" beer when having the tastings. One thing he didn't test that I will attempt to is how the beers age over a six month period. Since it was posited that haze/foam stability would be negatively effected by shorter and shorter mashes. I don't really know what to expect but that is why I wish to experiment.

 

[wobdee]

So this means if I have boinked my mash temperatures in the first 5 or 10 minutes, I've screwed the pooch and no amount of ice and stirring will change it? Continuing this thought any temperatures fluctuations after the first 15 would have little or no impact on the mash.

This would gel with some of my experience with low attenuating batches, but I'm curious what others have experienced...

Maybe I don't need to insulate my mash tun now.


Sent from the window of an airplane...

Good point, I think I've experienced this as well. I tend to overshoot my temps by a couple degrees and it can take 10 or so minutes to cool it back down.

 

[JohnSand]

I like the idea, but haven't tried it yet.
Kaconga, when you do your mash time test, I recommend that you start your boils right away, or at least mash out to denature the enzymes. Otherwise you may stop extraction, but not conversion.
My last few batches are all over in mash temps while I get used to a new system. But the results are on target both for OG and FG. So I don't believe that I'm getting very quick conversion. Maybe with a finer crush.
I do admire all of those who test the rules and boundaries of brewing. There is always resistance, but if it works well, others will follow.

 

[Siberian]

To those that are saying they will continue to do 60 minutes because that's what pro brewers do, many pro brewers, including me do not do 60 minute mashes. This actually came up the other day on pro brewer.
http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?41266-10-minute-mash&highlight=minute

True, but even the ones that report a relatively fast system allow for about 40-minutes of conversion through the whole process.

It may be a 5-10 minute mash rest, but it doesn't sound like it's 10 minutes of mashing, immediately start ramping up heat for a boil, they are spending a lot of time at conversion temperatures. It's taking them nearly 20 minutes just to dough in, during which there will be some conversion. Something most home brewers can do in minutes. They are vorlaufing to clear the wort for 25 minutes, during which conversion is still happening.

Basically the guy in that thread who is talking about a relatively fast mash, is even stating he's allowing for 40 minutes of conversion, I'm in agreement with WaterEng and the paper he linked in that thread. There's more to it then just converting the starch.

RM-MN I'm curious how your process compares to this, is your 10 minutes from start of dough in to lifting the bag? Post dough in to bag lift? How long does it take you to go from say raising the bag to drain to >170 (which is where conversion stops) on your system?

I think the Brulosophy test is telling too at this point in particular:

While I really wanted the short-mash beer (Carl) to come out ahead or at least taste the same as the long-mash beer (Fritz), my honest opinion is that I perceived Fritz as having more of the characteristics I expect in a good Oktoberfest– it had more toasty/Munich malt charcter, slightly more body, and I just enjoyed it more than the other beer.

I'm interested in this though, I think there is certainly evidence that I'm spending way too long recirculating the wort on my system during my mash. However, I don't think I'll ever get down to a process where I could dough in and be draining wort out of my bag only 10 minutes later.

I may try pushing the process down to 30-40 minutes from dough in to completion here at some point though, which would be basically 50% of the time I spend now.

By comparison my process is tremendously slow.... 60-75 minutes in a recirculating mash, ramp up to 168, hold for 10 minutes, raise bag and drain....

So, speeding that up would buy me a ton of time, I'm certainly interested.

Probably give cutting it down a try the next time I do a small beer, I'm brewing a large batch of stout this weekend, but it's with my Father-in-Law so not really the time to be experimenting with my process too much. :cross:

 

[RM-MN]

True, but even the ones that report a relatively fast system allow for about 40-minutes of conversion through the whole process.

It may be a 5-10 minute mash rest, but it doesn't sound like it's 10 minutes of mashing, immediately start ramping up heat for a boil, they are spending a lot of time at conversion temperatures. It's taking them nearly 20 minutes just to dough in, during which there will be some conversion. Something most home brewers can do in minutes. They are vorlaufing to clear the wort for 25 minutes, during which conversion is still happening.

Basically the guy in that thread who is talking about a relatively fast mash, is even stating he's allowing for 40 minutes of conversion, I'm in agreement with WaterEng and the paper he linked in that thread. There's more to it then just converting the starch.

RM-MN I'm curious how your process compares to this, is your 10 minutes from start of dough in to lifting the bag? Post dough in to bag lift? How long does it take you to go from say raising the bag to drain to >170 (which is where conversion stops) on your system?

I think the Brulosophy test is telling too at this point in particular:



I'm interested in this though, I think there is certainly evidence that I'm spending way too long recirculating the wort on my system during my mash. However, I don't think I'll ever get down to a process where I could dough in and be draining wort out of my bag only 10 minutes later.

I may try pushing the process down to 30-40 minutes from dough in to completion here at some point though, which would be basically 50% of the time I spend now.

By comparison my process is tremendously slow.... 60-75 minutes in a recirculating mash, ramp up to 168, hold for 10 minutes, raise bag and drain....

So, speeding that up would buy me a ton of time, I'm certainly interested.

Probably give cutting it down a try the next time I do a small beer, I'm brewing a large batch of stout this weekend, but it's with my Father-in-Law so not really the time to be experimenting with my process too much. :cross:

Dough in is pretty fast, from starting to add grains until I put the lid on the pot probably takes between a minute and a minute and a half. I stir like a madman. Ten minutes later I pull the bag and as soon as I have the bag of grains sitting in the colander, I turn up the heat. It takes between 5 and 7 minutes to reach 170 (only an estimate, I'm too busy squeezing out the wort from the grain bag to keep close track on that).

I more often do a 20 minute mash than 10 but I want to explore just where the best results lie. Since so many brewing concepts have been changed recently, I think this is a neat thing to try now that I have gotten clear beer with no chill and shorter boils.

 

[JohnSand]

I read the links, and their links. While there were various views, there was also certainly evidence to support a shorter mash. Even if I do a 30 minute mash, and a 40 minute boil, the 50 minutes saved can mean the difference between fitting in a brew day or waiting.

 

[Siberian]

Gave this a try this weekend brewing a Special Bitter. Probably was done with conversion at 30 minutes, but I must not have had enough coffee and wasn't thinking straight.

I did my first iodine test at 30 minutes using a paper plate. Iodine correctly detected the presence of starch in paper....

At 40 minutes I tested again, there was still starch in the paper. At this point I realized my error and switched to testing to real plate. No sign of purple. Moved onto mashing out by raising the mash to 168 and holding it there for 10 minutes, lifted the bag out and let it run off for about 10 minutes.

Was basically on target for pre-boil gravity, it came in at 1.043 and I was targeting 1.042.

 

[hio3791]

Interesting thread. I decided to give it a shot this past weekend. I crushed the grain very fine, which led to dough-ball heaven. That took about 5 min of stirring to get it all mixed before closing the lid. 30 min later, I gave it a quick stir and lifted the bag to let it drain while raising the temperature to a boil. Total mash time, approx 35 min. OG was 1.050 which was right on target for the recipe.

I didn't do an iodine test so time will tell. Hydrometer sample was great though and I was done 30 min earlier than expected!

 

[RM-MN]

Interesting thread. I decided to give it a shot this past weekend. I crushed the grain very fine, which led to dough-ball heaven. That took about 5 min of stirring to get it all mixed before closing the lid. 30 min later, I gave it a quick stir and lifted the bag to let it drain while raising the temperature to a boil. Total mash time, approx 35 min. OG was 1.050 which was right on target for the recipe.

I didn't do an iodine test so time will tell. Hydrometer sample was great though and I was done 30 min earlier than expected!

Next time use a wire whisk. It breaks up doughballs as fast as they can form. I no longer use a spoon.

My last brew was a rye saison, brewed October 3rd. I gave it a 20 minute mash and pitched half a packet of Belle Saison that had been opened 6 months or so ago so it wasn't the best viability. In 17 days it took the saison from 1.057 to 1.000 so I think I have plenty of fermentability.

 

[Magnus314]

The fact that you got doughballs surprises me. Usually the very high water/grain ratio makes it all stir in pretty quickly.

Just today I did an 11 gal batch of IPA and it only took me about 60 seconds to mash in, even just dumping it in and sitrring like crazy.

20 min. mash + mash out about 8-10 mins and a single sparge. I have to with a big grain bill and a double batch, to get it all in my 15 gal kettle.

Efficiency was either 88% or 93% depending on whether Ashbourne Mild malt is 30 ppg potential like some say, or 37-ish ppg like other base malts.

 

[Chris7687]

The fact that you got doughballs surprises me. Usually the very high water/grain ratio makes it all stir in pretty quickly.

Just today I did an 11 gal batch of IPA and it only took me about 60 seconds to mash in, even just dumping it in and sitrring like crazy.

20 min. mash + mash out about 8-10 mins and a single sparge. I have to with a big grain bill and a double batch, to get it all in my 15 gal kettle.

Efficiency was either 88% or 93% depending on whether Ashbourne Mild malt is 30 ppg potential like some say, or 37-ish ppg like other base malts.

Magnus - with a 25+ pound grain bill, how do you sparge out. Sorry to get off-topic, just curious.

 

[Magnus314]

I have a ladder and the clip/pulley deal from Wilserbrewer. I raise the bag, let it drain a minute or two so I don't make a mess, and lower it down into my old lonely mash cooler ;-) with the rest of the water in it, and stir.

Raise it up and transfer runnings to kettle with my high tech 1gal pitcher.

Since my efficiency is so high, I'm going to try just doing a pour-over sparge with the remaining water next time. I don't really need the gravity points, but I don't want to pour just straight top-up water into my wort to get my my pre-boil volume.

EDIT: It was 23# of grain. I ended up with 11 gals at 1.066 post boil.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Try the pour "through" sparge. I was very surprised how well the sparge water goes right through the bag and rinses the grain. I was also skeptical, thinking that the sparge water would shortcut over the outside of the bag, but it enters the grain bag and drains out the bottom nicely.

Much easier than a dunk sparge in a different vessel FTW!


Wilserbrewer
Http://biabbags.webs.com/

 

[Chris7687]

I agree with wilser. I do pour over sparge and get good points. The reason I ask, because on another thread a member was talking about doing the method you just mentioned, Magnus. It seems like extra work and time for set up/clean up.

Magnus - Wellington, aye? That's my hometown and recently moved back to SoFl to PB Gardens. You a part of a HBC? Was thinking of starting one in NPB, as PBDM in Boynton is a drive sometimes.

 

[Magnus314]

I'm not a member of any club.

They look like they're having fun on the website, a member named Jeff was a friend outside of that club, but I never made it to any meetings!

My mistake probably, I just never followed through.

 

[kevreh]

The fact that you got doughballs surprises me. Usually the very high water/grain ratio makes it all stir in pretty quickly.

Just today I did an 11 gal batch of IPA and it only took me about 60 seconds to mash in, even just dumping it in and sitrring like crazy.

20 min. mash + mash out about 8-10 mins and a single sparge. I have to with a big grain bill and a double batch, to get it all in my 15 gal kettle.

Efficiency was either 88% or 93% depending on whether Ashbourne Mild malt is 30 ppg potential like some say, or 37-ish ppg like other base malts.

I just don't get how anyone can get 93% efficiency with a quick sparge and BIAB. Best I got with BIAB was around 75%. Wonder whats different, technique? Water? Grains?

 

[RM-MN]

I just don't get how anyone can get 93% efficiency with a quick sparge and BIAB. Best I got with BIAB was around 75%. Wonder whats different, technique? Water? Grains?

Mostly what's different is the milling of the grain. Smaller particles are more efficient because it lets you leach more sugars out. I didn't figure out what my efficiency was for today's batch but I had the software set for 1.059 OG at 2.75 gallons and got 1.061 with about 3 gallons. I'll be watching this one for what the FG turns out because I only mashed for 10 minutes.

 

[kevreh]

Wish that applied to me. I have my monster mill and have been double grinding.

 

[Chris7687]

I'm with ya Kevreh. I havea a barley mill and have it set pretty darn tight and still having problems getting even 60%. I consistently hit 80% when I was using my LHBS' grain mill, but since have moved and do not have a LHBS worth going to.

I do have a feeling it had some to do with the water too. The pH, alkalinity, something... We'll see. I picked up some iodine and pH strips to test with this weekend.

I am also having problems holding mash temp with my gas BIAB setup. Need to close on the house before I take the time to wire up the electric system, the good ole' switch and forget!

 

[pricelessbrewing]

I'm with ya Kevreh. I havea a barley mill and have it set pretty darn tight and still having problems getting even 60%. I consistently hit 80% when I was using my LHBS' grain mill, but since have moved and do not have a LHBS worth going to.

I do have a feeling it had some to do with the water too. The pH, alkalinity, something... We'll see. I picked up some iodine and pH strips to test with this weekend.

I am also having problems holding mash temp with my gas BIAB setup. Need to close on the house before I take the time to wire up the electric system, the good ole' switch and forget!

See if you can at least get a city water report, should get you in the right direction at least. Could be PH related, or sodium/calcium. Not sure how much salt ends up in the florida municipal water but I'd imagine it's at least measurable.

Have you used feeler gauges to check your mill gap? Check an auto shop for some, should only be a couple of bucks.

For mash temp stability, I just wrap it in a blanket and a sleeping bag and usually only lose 1-2 degrees over an hour in MI. FL should be better with the ambient temps.

 

[Magnus314]

I just don't get how anyone can get 93% efficiency with a quick sparge and BIAB. Best I got with BIAB was around 75%. Wonder whats different, technique? Water? Grains?

Because I'm on a well and all the house water is softened, I use either rainwater or R/O + brewing salts.

When I use the local homebrew shop's grind I get 72-ish percent efficiency.

With my Victoria mill (Corona knock-off) tightened down, and spaced with only one washer, I get 84-88% with a single pass crush.

That last batch was the first time I ever did that short of a short mash time. Prior M/O it was 30 min. mashes and no mash out.

I really only did the mash out b/c my psyche can't handle the realization of just how bad my efficiency used to be and how long I've wasted with marathon mash times over the last 8+ years...

Next time I'm going to try 20 min mash and no mash out, and if I need it on bigger beers, a pour-over sparge.

Pushing it further than that doesn't really matter.

It's almost to the point where the mash doesn't take any time because I still have to weigh out the hops and put away the mill and clean up and everything and that takes about 20 minutes or so at a leisurely pace anyway.

 

[JohnSand]

And you really don't have to worry about temperature loss.

 

[KPSquared]

OK, I'm for sure going to try this. Does anyone actually have a mill gap written down? I'd rather know numbers than just guess what "tight" is...

 

[TexasWine]

OK, I'm for sure going to try this. Does anyone actually have a mill gap written down? I'd rather know numbers than just guess what "tight" is...

I would say 0.010 is tight. And I think others would agree. Last time I double milled. First pass was at 0.025, second at 0.010.

 

[doug293cz]

OK, I'm for sure going to try this. Does anyone actually have a mill gap written down? I'd rather know numbers than just guess what "tight" is...

I've got mine set at 0.016" and can get my grain thru it in one pass. My battery operated drill (a beefy model from HF) struggles a bit to get the rollers turning, but once underway handles it pretty well.

Brew on

 

[Chris7687]

Hey guys, just wanted to report back after my weekend brew session. Efficiency got better, finally!

Did a 0.010 inch mill. Make sure to lightly (VERY LIGHTLY) moisten your grains prior to milling, otherwise your mill will have trouble working.

Was busy with a few things around my house, so I overshot the mash temp and had to wait a while for it to cool back down before doughing in. Mashed for about 20 minutes before the iodine additions stopped making the wort turn blue/black. I did the 60 minute mash just to be safe though. I ended up with an 80% efficiency, first efficiency of 75%+ in 6 months!

I have a small 2.5g IPA I am going to brew this week which I will have more time to pay attention to and will try to go for the 20 min mash, then boil.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Hey guys, just wanted to report back after my weekend brew session. Efficiency got better, finally!

Did a 0.010 inch mill. Make sure to lightly (VERY LIGHTLY) moisten your grains prior to milling, otherwise your mill will have trouble working.

Was busy with a few things around my house, so I overshot the mash temp and had to wait a while for it to cool back down before doughing in. Mashed for about 20 minutes before the iodine additions stopped making the wort turn blue/black. I did the 60 minute mash just to be safe though. I ended up with an 80% efficiency, first efficiency of 75%+ in 6 months!

I have a small 2.5g IPA I am going to brew this week which I will have more time to pay attention to and will try to go for the 20 min mash, then boil.

Congrats! The key is definitely the crush dial the mash time back slowly if you're worried aboutb it. 60,45,35,30,25,20. Till you're happy with it

 

[Weezy]

Glad you're nailing it down.

I just wanted to point out that repeatability is always the goal. Real high efficiencies doesn't save much cash and can lead to more variation brew to brew if you're targeting 80%+ with your recipes.

 

[KPSquared]

I hope no one is doing this for the sake of high efficiency... That's a pointless goal.

I'm in for saving time. If you can get the EXACT same results and save 40 min to an hour on a brew day, then why wouldn't you? I have so much going on in life that I already don't get to brew as much as I'd like to... Anything to make it happen a little faster is gold.

 

[Magnus314]

I hope no one is doing this for the sake of high efficiency... That's a pointless goal.

I hear this.

And I agree that it's pointless if it takes away from the quality of the brew. Definitely true that adding a bit more grain is cheap and easy.

But LOW efficiency is not a guarantee of anything, either.

I use to get 68-72% ish efficiency with a store grind and 1 or 2 sparges in a cooler.

When I got 84+% for the first time from a fine crush and a full volume BIAB, I thought it was the "Holy Grail" of brewing. Then it finished around 1.003 or so and I knew there was more to it.

That's why I went from the standard "60 min.+ sparge" times (60-90 min. total) down to 20-30 min.+ mash out when I grind my own (fine) and use a lot of water.

At this point I get 85+ish % efficiency with a 30 min. mash and good, -80%-ish - attenuation. I'm now testing shorter mash times than that, as I reported.

So I agree with NOT seeking efficiency for it's own sake to the detriment of quality.

But I hate it when people insinuate that HIGH efficiency is a trade off. It's not. ANY efficiency has "right" answer for you, and you need to know what it is no matter what efficiency you get.

 

[KPSquared]

Great post! I agree. People rarely consider the changes or consequences that come from the efficiency hunt...

 

[TexasWine]

Just as a quick follow up on my last brew day. I posted the results in some other thread but don't think I mentioned it here.

Zombie Dust clone, 30 minute mash @ 152F, 30 minute boil, no chill

Expected OG 1.066
Actual OG 1.069
Expected FG 1.021
Actual FG 1.012
78% efficiency
82% attenuation

First taste was tonight. Incredible....

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Just as a quick follow up on my last brew day. I posted the results in some other thread but don't think I mentioned it here.

Zombie Dust clone, 30 minute mash @ 152F, 30 minute boil, no chill

Expected OG 1.066
Actual OG 1.069
Expected FG 1.021
Actual FG 1.012
78% efficiency
82% attenuation

First taste was tonight. Incredible....

Why was your actual fg so much lower than expected? Or was the 1.021 a typo?

 

[TexasWine]

Not a typo, and not sure why my FG was so low. Mash temp held perfectly because I mashed in my oven, so that's not the issue. I've read that other folks that do BIAB also tend to get lower FGs, but I haven't seen an explanation as to why.

I used Wyeast London ESB Ale 1968. Predicted attenuation was around 70%.

 

[RM-MN]

Here's results from a new experiment. I bought a refractometer so I could grab samples on the fly without waiting 10 minutes for them to cool. Mash temperature for this batch was 154F. which seemed like a good temperature for a sweet stout and it's in the range where conversion should happen rapidly. I did not do an iodine test during this mash, I forgot about that until just now.

Time Gravity
5 minutes 1.015
10 minutes 1.017
stirred mash
11 minutes 1.026
stirred mash
15 minutes 1.033
stirred mash
20 minutes 1.040
stirred mash
25 minutes 1.047
stirred mash
30 minutes 1.051
stirred mash
35 minutes 1.048
stirred mash
40 minutes 1.051

Looking through the numbers, it appears that the 30 minute sample was an error and that there was some but minimal increase between 25 and 40 minutes. This needs to be run again to see if the results are consistent but for a preliminary result, 20 to 25 minutes is the sweet spot. Longer is better but not by much. Now for the fermentability, which will have to wait for this batch.

A previous batch of blonde ale using Danstar Windsor yeast had an OG (hydrometer) of 1.040 and at 2 weeks it has come down to 1.008, and 80% attenuation for a yeast that should attenuate 62 to 68%. This batch was mashed at 156F for 20 minutes and hot water was used for sparging to get my volume because the pot I used was too small to go full volume.

 

[Weezy]

Thanks for sharing your data. note though that this subject is completely depend on how coarsely or finely the grain was crushed. If the malt is uncrushed, you may never get full conversion. If you grind to flour, it'v be converted by the time you're done stirring after dough-in.

 

[ayrerperformance]

Great info. Following.

Edit: has anyone done a short mash with a large grain bill? Does it matter?

 

[TexasWine]

Great info. Following.

Edit: has anyone done a short mash with a large grain bill? Does it matter?

My last batch was 15 lbs for a 5 gallon batch. I'd consider that to be larger than average. 30 minute mash and 88% efficiency.